Play Ozzie for a week

[Felix]

You really need to learn the game, some of the crap you spew is beyond laughable. A .291 lifetime hitter vs. a .263 lifetime hitter and you say the .263 hitter is a "far better hitter"? Wake up.

You mean sort of like how AJ Pierzynski is a better hitter than Mark McGwire, who owned a career .263 average.

[Guest JimH]

You mean sort of like how AJ Pierzynski is a better hitter than Mark McGwire, who owned a career .263 average.

 

That wasn't the comparison. He said Crede is a vastly superior hitter than Pierzynski. The naked eye and the stats say otherwise.

 

Anyone can pick and choose certain stats. However when he makes one of his usual over the top blanket statements, it should mean that one guy is statistically superior to another in just about every category, if not all categories. That isn't the case.

[Felix]

That wasn't the comparison. He said Crede is a vastly superior hitter than Pierzynski. The naked eye and the stats say otherwise.

 

Anyone can pick and choose certain stats. However when he makes one of his usual over the top blanket statements, it should mean that one guy is statistically superior to another in just about every category, if not all categories. That isn't the case.

A .291 lifetime hitter vs. a .263 lifetime hitter and you say the .263 hitter is a "far better hitter"? Wake up.

You say a .291 lifetime hitter. AJP is a .291 lifetime hitter. You say a .263 lifetime hitter. Mark McGwire is a .263 lifetime hitter. Mark McGwire was a far better hitter than AJP is.

 

You are looking at a stat which isn't the best to judge hitters. If you look at OPS, you'll see that AJ and Crede are incredibly close over their careers, which still doesn't tell the whole story. Crede is a different hitter than he used to be, and his stats show it. Something clicked in his head during the stretch run last year, and he's a much, much better hitter now, and a much, much better hitter than AJP is.

[Guest JimH]

You say a .291 lifetime hitter. AJP is a .291 lifetime hitter. You say a .263 lifetime hitter. Mark McGwire is a .263 lifetime hitter. Mark McGwire was a far better hitter than AJP is.

 

You are looking at a stat which isn't the best to judge hitters. If you look at OPS, you'll see that AJ and Crede are incredibly close over their careers, which still doesn't tell the whole story. Crede is a different hitter than he used to be, and his stats show it. Something clicked in his head during the stretch run last year, and he's a much, much better hitter now, and a much, much better hitter than AJP is.

 

Well you and VAFan can say he's a better hitter but I guess it's because you say so. Just because Crede is a better hitter than he used to be (which I totally agree with) doesn't make him a far superior hitter than Pierzynski. The career stats don't show it. This seasons stats don't show it.

 

I did look at OPS. As you say they are basically identical. That doesn't show Crede is a "far better" hitter. Nothing does. They are both good clutch hitters. They both have poor walk totals. They both have relatively low career OBP, although Pierzynski's is better.

 

Crede is trending up, Pierzynski has always been a good hitter. How that makes Crede a far better hitter ... it doesn't compute. Unless it is simply you and VAFan saying so, in which case, there's really no debate here is there. Now if you are saying Crede is a better power hitter than Pierzynski, I agree with that ... similar to your McGwire example. But that isn't what was said.

Edited August 8, 2006 by JimH

[Felix]

Well you and VAFan can say he's a better hitter but I guess it's because you say so. Just because Crede is a better hitter than he used to be (which I totally agree with) doesn't make him a far superior hitter than Pierzynski. The career stats don't show it. This seasons stats don't show it.

No, they don't.

Crede's season OPS: .882

AJP's season OPS: .796

 

They are both good clutch hitters.

lol.

AJP with RISP: .268/.322/.385/.719

Crede with RISP: .348/.385/.511/.896

 

Pierzynski has always been a good hitter.

Yep, his 2005 was spectacular. .257/.308/.420.

[Guest JimH]

No, they don't.

Crede's season OPS: .882

AJP's season OPS: .796

lol.

AJP with RISP: .268/.322/.385/.719

Crede with RISP: .348/.385/.511/.896

Yep, his 2005 was spectacular. .257/.308/.420.

 

Look, if you're looking to argue, forget it. You are picking one stat out. You are picking OPS, I looked at batting average.

 

I said they are both good clutch hitters, and they both are. I didn't look at one season's stats, which isn't even a full season by the way. Nor did I say Pierzynski was a better clutch hitter than Crede now did I? No, I didn't.

 

If you want to pick out one season and point it out as mediocre, take a look at one of Crede's seasons.

I'm sure you'll find one, you won't even have to look very hard.

 

Sorry, saying Crede is a "far better" hitter than Pierzynski doesn't hold water.

[Felix]

Look, if you're looking to argue, forget it. You are picking one stat out. You are picking OPS, I looked at batting average.

So basically, you're looking at a stat that means hardly anything, while I'm looking at a stat that is a better way of judging how complete an offensive player is.

 

I said they are both good clutch hitters, and they both are.

Just from watching AJ, I disagree there. I don't consider him a clutch hitter in the least (but then again, this is my personal opinion).

 

If you want to pick out one season and point it out as mediocre, take a look at one of Crede's seasons.

I'm sure you'll find one, you won't even have to look very hard.

Yep, Crede hasn't been a very good offensive player in the past. I believe he's turned a corner, as do many other people. If he truely has turned said corner, then he is a much, much better offensive player than AJ Pierzynski.

 

If he hasn't, then looking at his entire career is much more reasonable, and it's fair to say that they are similar offensively and that Crede isn't much better.

Edited August 8, 2006 by Felix

[Hangar18]

FIRST THING HANGAR WOULD DO:

 

1. Manage Starting Pitchers to Expecations.

 

In other words, if its only the 4th, and Vazquez is throwing the ball all over the place, he gets taken out ASAP. No more throwing games away in the 5th inning for pride.

 

2. Defensive lineups take precedence over Offensive ones.

In other words, Mackowiak doesnt play in the same game as Podsednik.

[Felix]

In other words, if its only the 4th, and Vazquez is throwing the ball all over the place, he gets taken out ASAP. No more throwing games away in the 5th inning for pride.

After a week or two, your bullpen will be worn out completely.

[Guest JimH]

So basically, you're looking at a stat that means hardly anything, while I'm looking at a stat that is a better way of judging how complete an offensive player is.

Just from watching AJ, I disagree there. I don't consider him a clutch hitter in the least (but then again, this is my personal opinion).

Yep, Crede hasn't been a very good offensive player in the past. I believe he's turned a corner, as do many other people. If he truely has turned said corner, then he is a much, much better offensive player than AJ Pierzynski.

 

If he hasn't, then looking at his entire career is much more reasonable, and it's fair to say that they are similar offensively and that Crede isn't much better.

 

Batting average means hardly anything? Wow I did not know that. I wonder why they've been keeping track of it all these years then. I suppose that's where the fork in the road is in this discussion. Funny but when someone says Player A is a much better hitter than Player B, it's just my guess but I think a lot of people would look at batting average as one measure of whether that's a true statement or not. As has been pointed out, saying Crede is a "far better" hitter than Pierzynski is not borne out, either by career batting average stats or 2006 batting average stats.

 

Now one can pick and choose certain stats and make a case, as you did with your post above this one. However when someone says Crede is a "far better" hitter than Pierzynski, to me that means basically across the board in all statistical categories, not just certain ones that are deemed more important by personal opinion. I am a big believer in on base % but when I say a certain hitter is "better" or in this case "far better", I like to take a more thorough view before I type it out.

 

There are a lot of categories where Pierzynski is better, there are a few where Crede is better. I haven't looked at strikeout totals but I would say Pierzynski is a better contact hitter historically. That's another measure of a hitter and how good they are.

 

I'm not saying Piezynski is a far better or even better hitter than Crede. I don't like those types of comparisions because hitting is multidimensional and should be analyzed as such. However, saying Crede is a "far better" hitter and then backing it up with pick-and-choose stats and timeframes ... no, I don't buy it. Batting average is one measure and I would say it's an important measure. By that standard, a key universally accepted standard of how good a hitter is (they have an award for it), Crede is not a "far better" hitter than Pierzynski.

 

As for turning the corner re: Crede, I hope he has. It would be fairer to give it more of a sample size than less than a year.

[Felix]

Batting average means hardly anything? Wow I did not know that. I wonder why they've been keeping track of it all these years then.

They've been keeping track of it because its the most basic stat to calculate, and the easiest. What is a more basic percentage than hits divided by at bats?

 

Just a question, but do you agree with me that Frank Thomas has been a FAR superior hitter than Juan Pierre this year, even though Juan Pierre has the higher batting average?

[Hangar18]

After a week or two, your bullpen will be worn out completely.

 

 

 

MAYBE, but then maybe we have 4 or 5 more victories. Maybe the team rides the starting pitchers "rut" out, and they start pitching better where next time around, I dont have to use the BP so early?

[DBAHO]

MAYBE, but then maybe we have 4 or 5 more victories. Maybe the team rides the starting pitchers "rut" out, and they start pitching better where next time around, I dont have to use the BP so early?

What about the argument that if you drag the SP earlier, it'll be harder for them to pitch better in the future, because it shows that you don't have the confidence in them to go more than say 5 innings?

 

It's a fine balancing act though, and one that this team really needs to figure out, and in a hurry.

[Dick Allen]

What about the argument that if you drag the SP earlier, it'll be harder for them to pitch better in the future, because it shows that you don't have the confidence in them to go more than say 5 innings?

 

It's a fine balancing act though, and one that this team really needs to figure out, and in a hurry.

The confidence factor might be a good argument, but the Sox starters are all veterans, and should be able to handle being yanked out of a game. If their confidence is shattered or their feelings hurt, they need to be moved to another team in the offseason. The White Sox need to win games, not make sure everyone's feelings are OK. Its 3 times in the last week Ozzie gave a different member of the the greatest rotation ever assembled the benefit of the doubt and left him in the game. Its also been 3 times this week that the decision to leave his starter in has backfired. Lets try something new. Leaving them in isn't working. We hear about the playoffs and the WBC taking its toll on White Sox starters. If thats the case, why have White Sox starters pitched more innings than any other team's starters? It makes no sense.

[VAfan]

Well, Ozzie didn't do #2 (use McCarthy as a long man) or #3 (play to win every game) last night, and instead of a game likely tied 3-3 after 9, we lost.

 

OZZIE SHOULD BE FIRED FOR BEING SO PIGHEADED! YOU HAVE TO MANAGE THE TEAM YOU HAVE, NOT THE TEAM YOU WANT TO HAVE!!

[DBAHO]

The confidence factor might be a good argument, but the Sox starters are all veterans, and should be able to handle being yanked out of a game. If their confidence is shattered or their feelings hurt, they need to be moved to another team in the offseason. The White Sox need to win games, not make sure everyone's feelings are OK. Its 3 times in the last week Ozzie gave a different member of the the greatest rotation ever assembled the benefit of the doubt and left him in the game. Its also been 3 times this week that the decision to leave his starter in has backfired. Lets try something new. Leaving them in isn't working. We hear about the playoffs and the WBC taking its toll on White Sox starters. If thats the case, why have White Sox starters pitched more innings than any other team's starters? It makes no sense.

You remember that quote Ozzie gave when he 1st started here about only wanting the 5 starters and 1 closer. Looks like he's sort of living and dying by that right now isn't he. You hear rotoworld bash Terry Francona every chance they get for his usage of the Red Sox pen, for leaving a guy in too long. Well it's sort of the same situation here with Ozzie and the starters.

 

Look right now our starters obviously ain't gettin the job done. But I still think there's a good chance the both Buehrle and Vazquez will be pitching better by the end of the season. Why have we pitched more innings with our SP than any other team? I can't really explain that. Different pitchers have been hot and cold during various times during the season. I suppose even when a guy like Freddy or Mark isn't hot, Ozzie still wants them to go 6 innings. Unfortunately most time more often than not, that 6th inning is becoming a real killer.

 

There's also the question of whether the BP could be doing better if they were given more regular work. It's really the major issue that is facing this team right now, and I think this season has all showed us that one how lucky we were last season to get what we got from our starters and two how pitching can fluctuate som much from season to season.

[Hangar18]

The confidence factor might be a good argument, but the Sox starters are all veterans, and should be able to handle being yanked out of a game. If their confidence is shattered or their feelings hurt, they need to be moved to another team in the offseason. The White Sox need to win games, not make sure everyone's feelings are OK. Its 3 times in the last week Ozzie gave a different member of the the greatest rotation ever assembled the benefit of the doubt and left him in the game. Its also been 3 times this week that the decision to leave his starter in has backfired. Lets try something new. Leaving them in isn't working. We hear about the playoffs and the WBC taking its toll on White Sox starters. If thats the case, why have White Sox starters pitched more innings than any other team's starters? It makes no sense.

 

 

POST OF THE DAY. Wish Ozzie couldve read this about a month ago

[Guest JimH]

They've been keeping track of it because its the most basic stat to calculate, and the easiest. What is a more basic percentage than hits divided by at bats?

 

Just a question, but do you agree with me that Frank Thomas has been a FAR superior hitter than Juan Pierre this year, even though Juan Pierre has the higher batting average?

 

They keep track of batting average because it means something, not just because it's easy to calculate.

 

No I really don't agree. Thomas is far more dangerous as a power hitter obviously. Pierre as a hitter can hurt the other teams in multiple ways. Thomas hurts the other team with his batting eye, power, and sheer ability. His doubles are down because he can't run. They are different types of hitters, especially this year with Thomas not getting many doubles. So no, I would not say Thomas is a FAR superior hitter than Pierre this year. I would say they both bring a lot to the table.

[southsider2k5]

Well, Ozzie didn't do #2 (use McCarthy as a long man) or #3 (play to win every game) last night, and instead of a game likely tied 3-3 after 9, we lost.

 

OZZIE SHOULD BE FIRED FOR BEING SO PIGHEADED! YOU HAVE TO MANAGE THE TEAM YOU HAVE, NOT THE TEAM YOU WANT TO HAVE!!

 

Wait so you are telling me that the bullpen would have come in and given up no runs in the 6th, 7th, 8th, and 9th innings? Come on. There is no one in the pen pitching that well, and I know everyone is in this place where the starters have to be yanked as soon as they throw a ball, because it is the fashionable bridge to be jumping off of now, but to say that the pen would have thrown 4 scoreless innings is a joke. Even at our pens season long eras, we have to expect at least one run, and with the way Riske, Jenks, Cotts, and Thornton have thrown the ball, there is no reason to be surprised if they give up more than two runs.

[Milkman delivers]

Wait so you are telling me that the bullpen would have come in and given up no runs in the 6th, 7th, 8th, and 9th innings? Come on. There is no one in the pen pitching that well, and I know everyone is in this place where the starters have to be yanked as soon as they throw a ball, because it is the fashionable bridge to be jumping off of now, but to say that the pen would have thrown 4 scoreless innings is a joke. Even at our pens season long eras, we have to expect at least one run, and with the way Riske, Jenks, Cotts, and Thornton have thrown the ball, there is no reason to be surprised if they give up more than two runs.

 

Every legitimate concern that is ever brought up, and agreed to be a concern by more than a few people, is always just people jumping off of a bridge.

[Hangar18]

What about the argument that if you drag the SP earlier, it'll be harder for them to pitch better in the future, because it shows that you don't have the confidence in them to go more than say 5 innings?

 

It's a fine balancing act though, and one that this team really needs to figure out, and in a hurry.

 

 

That argument works with Rookie & 1st year starting pitchers. The SOX have vets on this staff

[southsider2k5]

Every legitimate concern that is ever brought up, and agreed to be a concern by more than a few people, is always just people jumping off of a bridge.

 

I noticed as usual you skipped the substance of the post and went straight to the one liner.

[VAfan]

Wait so you are telling me that the bullpen would have come in and given up no runs in the 6th, 7th, 8th, and 9th innings? Come on. There is no one in the pen pitching that well, and I know everyone is in this place where the starters have to be yanked as soon as they throw a ball, because it is the fashionable bridge to be jumping off of now, but to say that the pen would have thrown 4 scoreless innings is a joke. Even at our pens season long eras, we have to expect at least one run, and with the way Riske, Jenks, Cotts, and Thornton have thrown the ball, there is no reason to be surprised if they give up more than two runs.

 

I would have yanked Buehrle after 6, once we got the game within a run again. McCarthy was in fact used as a long man, and gave up nothing for 2-1/3. But it was just mop-up work instead of having an opportunity to win the game. He clearly could have gotten the bottom of the Angels lineup out in the top of the 7th.

 

On another debate -- thank Felix for rebutting Jim H re: AJ v. Crede's comparative values as hitters. Historical numbers don't mean much in this debate -- the only relevant point is how they compare as hitters now and in the future. Crede blew by AJ as a hitter last September-October after he came back from the DL, and he's carried that new hitting stroke throughout this season. I expect Crede to have a long career (though there are those lingering concerns about his back) which, if he can learn to take a walk, will put him up among the best 3Bs in the game. (If he doesn't learn how to walk, he's going to be good, but never great.) AJ, on the other hand, likely won't last much past his current 3-year contract with the Sox. Jim H -- would you pick AJ over Crede with the game on the line? Ever?

 

And, returning to the original point -- lineup changes -- the reason to hit Crede ahead of AJ is to give him a better opportunity to drive in Thome/Konerko/Dye in the 6 hole than he has in the 7 hole. With AJ's OBP not that great, there are a fair number of times when he makes the 3rd out with men on base. I'd much rather give Crede a shot in those circumstances than AJ.

[Guest JimH]

On another debate -- thank Felix for rebutting Jim H re: AJ v. Crede's comparative values as hitters. Historical numbers don't mean much in this debate -- the only relevant point is how they compare as hitters now and in the future. Crede blew by AJ as a hitter last September-October after he came back from the DL, and he's carried that new hitting stroke throughout this season. I expect Crede to have a long career (though there are those lingering concerns about his back) which, if he can learn to take a walk, will put him up among the best 3Bs in the game. (If he doesn't learn how to walk, he's going to be good, but never great.) AJ, on the other hand, likely won't last much past his current 3-year contract with the Sox. Jim H -- would you pick AJ over Crede with the game on the line? Ever?

 

No VAFan, as usual you're spinning things to suit your viewpoint. If you would've said Crede is a far superior hitter than Pierzynski in 2006, it is a slightly different argument. Although it is still a point to be debated because AJ has a better batting average. Crede of course has more power. But for you to state things definitively when you're basing it on your eyeballs alone, and then getting all twisted up when you're challenged and insisting the bogeyman is out to get you ... well ... get over it.

 

Lots of "ifs" in your argument, as usual. "If" Crede learns to talk a walk, "If" he maintains his hitting stroke which has proved hugely problematic in the past (half this site wanted him traded for Joe Randa, you may have been one of them), AJ "likely" won't last much past his current 3 yr. deal ... these are all assumptions you paint as fact. Your opinions aren't facts, they never were, they never are, they never will be. Numbers are facts. It's not the only way to measure a hitter, a knowledgeable fan's eyes can tell a lot but to me knowledgeable eyes are not yours. Further, the numbers don't prove by any way shape or form that Crede is a "far better" hitter than Pierzynski.

 

And would I pick AJ over Crede with the game on the line, yes of course I would. It depends on the matchup. Who's that reliever who was with the Dodgers, Yancy Brazoban, something like that? You bet I'd take AJ over Crede in that matchup. And probably quite a few more.

 

With AJ's OBP not that great,

 

What is Pierzynski's OBP this year as compared to Crede? What the heck, let me help you out, Crede's is .334 and Pierzynski's is .354 . Crede has more RBI's, maybe that's what you were trying to get across?

Edited August 8, 2006 by JimH

[Hangar18]

I would have yanked Buehrle after 6, once we got the game within a run again. McCarthy was in fact used as a long man, and gave up nothing for 2-1/3. But it was just mop-up work instead of having an opportunity to win the game. He clearly could have gotten the bottom of the Angels lineup out in the top of the 7th.

 

 

This I agree with, McCarthy in meaningful situations as opposed to mop-up duty (looking at Riske)

is what shouldve/couldve been done a month ago. I truly believe we wouldnt be as far back as we are if simply McCarthy had been used in more meaningful games, where we were actually trying to win a game.