Time for a lineup change

[Balta1701]

Ok, so I know we've heard this before around here, and I know I'm going to either be labeled as annoying or as a flip-flopper, because I've been one of the loudest advocates for keeping Thome's OBP in the 3 slot, but as of today, I'm convinced.

 

Our lineup would be more effective if Jermaine Dye were in the 3 hole, Jim Thome were in the 4 hole, Paul Konerko were in the 5 hole, Joe Crede were in the 6 hole, and AJP were in the 7 hole.

 

So, why am I convinced today? All of the old arguments still fit. Moving Thome out of the 3 hole will probably cut into JD's RBI chances, because he will have fewer people on base. Thome may also score fewer runs because Dye won't be 2 guys behind him. Thome may drive in a few more from having JD in front of him, which would reduce the impact overall. But none of those are the key reason.

 

The reason we need to do this is the lefties. In the 6th inning today, Scott Schoenweis came in as a Loogy. Started off with Pods, got him, Iguchi, and Thome in short order.

 

The problem of course is that in terms of their numbers against lefties, these are basically our 3 worst guys in our lineup. Excluding Brian Anderson, and part-time guys, who's numbers will all be skewed, against lefties, the top 3 in our lineup look like this

 

BA OPS

Scott Podsednik .237 .608

Tadahito Iguchi .221 .650

Jim Thome .259 .768

 

Why is this important? It is important because it allows an opposing manager to, every game, send in a Loogy, and be able to get a quick, easy inning at the start of our lineup, and it allows that LOOGY to pitch to 3 people instead of one.

 

Here are Jermaine's #s against lefties:

Jermaine Dye .361 1.112

 

So, right now, we are struggling against lefties, and we have for much of the season. The weakness of our first 3 hitters against lefties, I feel, is one of the primary reasons. It allows managers to use 1 lefty to take out Podsednik, Iguchi, and Thome late in games without having anyone in there who we can count on to pound that lefty. By spreading out our lefties, and sticking Dye in there, I believe that our gains against left-handers will overcome the losses of total runs by moving Thome's OBP slightly lower in the order.

 

Anyway, I know Ozzie won't do this, as in his eyes what he's doing is working, but I wanted to make a thread about it anyway. Schoenweis's inning today just really pissed me off, because having these 3 guys in a row who aren't hitting lefties is giving opposing managers a big advantage. If they want to bring in a Loogy against Thome, they get the added gifts of Podsednik and Iguchi for that one pitcher. Sticking Dye in there would break that up, and make managers either feed a lefty to Dye, give a righty to Podsednik and Iguchi, or deplete their bullpen by using 3 pitchers.

[TitoMB345]

Sounds good, but we all know it won't EVER happen. Ozzie is stubborn.

[CWSOX45]

I'd like to see it, but I agree with Tito. It won't happen.

[whitesoxfan101]

This argument does hold water, but I think it's time for us to quit blowing leads on the road when going for a sweep against an inferior opponent.

[southsideirish71]

This argument does hold water, but I think it's time for us to quit blowing leads on the road when going for a sweep against an inferior opponent.

 

 

We need to have our manager get a better grasp of the hook for the SP instead of just plain asking him, so how do you feel.

[Balta1701]

We need to have our manager get a better grasp of the hook for the SP instead of just plain asking him, so how do you feel.

Wouldn't have changed a thing today. Unless you wanted to give him the hook in the 4th inning.

[Rowand44]

Runs scored:

 

1. White Sox 619

2. Red Sox 600

 

Leave the offense alone.

[southsideirish71]

Wouldn't have changed a thing today. Unless you wanted to give him the hook in the 4th inning.

 

 

There is a difference in being down by one and more. With over 100 pitches and already having a big inning you should never let him go out there in the 7th to duke it out. He had a 123 pitches in his last start and was down in velocity.

 

 

 

Runs scored:

 

1. White Sox 619

2. Red Sox 600

 

Leave the offense alone.

 

 

I would rather mess with the pitch. If our pitching gets in check, we will be fine.

[Rowand44]

I would rather mess with the pitch. If our pitching gets in check, we will be fine.

You know I agree with that.

[whitesoxfan101]

We need to have our manager get a better grasp of the hook for the SP instead of just plain asking him, so how do you feel.

 

THAT is definitely true, Ozzie's lack of a hook costs us a run or two every game it seems like.

 

Runs scored:

 

1. White Sox 619

2. Red Sox 600

 

Leave the offense alone.

 

Exactly. And our 3-4-5 are all having HUGE HUGE seasons, so I don't know why the hell you'd touch the lineup.

[TitoMB345]

Runs scored:

 

1. White Sox 619

2. Red Sox 600

 

Leave the offense alone.

That's a pretty stupid argument. We've had a ton of blowouts. And we're 15-14 in 1-run games. Making small changes to the lineup could make that 20-9.

[whitesoxfan101]

That's a pretty stupid argument. We've had a ton of blowouts. And we're 15-14 in 1-run games. Making small changes to the lineup could make that 20-9.

 

So the fact that we leading ALL OF BASEBALL in runs scored doesn't matter because you think our lineup (rather than our bad pitching) has lost us close games? That's a far more stupid argument by you.

Edited August 6, 2006 by whitesoxfan101

[Rowand44]

That's a pretty stupid argument. We've had a ton of blowouts. And we're 15-14 in 1-run games. Making small changes to the lineup could make that 20-9.

Yup, the reason we've lost a lot of one run games has been because of the offense.

[whitesoxfan101]

Yup, the reason we've lost a lot of one run games has been because of the offense.

 

Well if the lineup were aligned differently, those 7-6 losses turn into 8-7 wins!! Sure the pitching gave up 7, and we lead the league in runs, but it's the lineup's fault we lost.

 

We should bring back Aaron Rowand. He's blue collar and would strikeout less hitting 3rd for us. He's a better defender than Brian Anderson too.

[witesoxfan]

Runs scored:

 

1. White Sox 619

2. Red Sox 600

 

Leave the offense alone.

 

Why fix what isn't broken, right?

 

Well, against lefties, the top of the order is broken. We've been pisspoor against lefties all year, so a slight adjustment wouldn't hurt.

 

In fact, I wouldn't even be against just flipflopping Konerko and Thome. PK is more prone to GIDPing, so you have that added factor in when Podsednik and Iguchi actually do get on base, but he has just destroyed LHP this year(.347 BA, 1.128 OPS, plus he homers once every 12 PAs against LHP). You have PK hit 3rd, Thome 4th, and Dye 5th, and that makes it a hell of a lot harder on the opposing manager.

 

This team seems like it's one slight adjustment away from just getting hotter than all hell. Perhaps juggling the 3-4-5 may do it.

[southsideirish71]

That's a pretty stupid argument. We've had a ton of blowouts. And we're 15-14 in 1-run games. Making small changes to the lineup could make that 20-9.

 

Rowand can attest to my views on the offense last year. I have been critical to say the least, but Our offense outside of a 2 week period has been fine. We put up runs. We hit to all fields. Now I am not a huge fan of Pods without speed, but who frankly is.

 

I would say our success this year in 1 run games are more a reflection on our medicore pitching than our top of the line offense.

 

If Ozzie has a quicker hook, maybe we dont give up so many late runs. A few insurance runs late in a game make a big difference. And I would like to see the A team out on the field more and more now.

Edited August 6, 2006 by southsideirish71

[whitesoxfan101]

Why fix what isn't broken, right?

 

Well, against lefties, the top of the order is broken. We've been pisspoor against lefties all year, so a slight adjustment wouldn't hurt.

 

In fact, I wouldn't even be against just flipflopping Konerko and Thome. PK is more prone to GIDPing, so you have that added factor in when Podsednik and Iguchi actually do get on base, but he has just destroyed LHP this year(.347 BA, 1.128 OPS, plus he homers once every 12 PAs against LHP). You have PK hit 3rd, Thome 4th, and Dye 5th, and that makes it a hell of a lot harder on the opposing manager.

 

This team seems like it's one slight adjustment away from just getting hotter than all hell. Perhaps juggling the 3-4-5 may do it.

 

The pitching not being brutal is the adjustment we have to make in order to get hotter than hell. No matter what you do to the offense, they can't be better than 1st in runs and they won't score 7 every game.

Edited August 6, 2006 by whitesoxfan101

[Balta1701]

Yup, the reason we've lost a lot of one run games has been because of the offense.

So, here's the question...do we sit here and just keep repeating the "Blame the pitching staff" mantra, or do we actually accept the cards we've been dealt, and decide what the best way to play them is?

 

Either the pitching staff will get better or it won't. The offense isn't going to decide that. All the offense can do is put up as many runs every game as possible. I think this would help, and sitting around saying "the pitching staff should be better" doesn't do anything to win us more games.

[whitesoxfan101]

So, here's the question...do we sit here and just keep repeating the "Blame the pitching staff" mantra, or do we actually accept the cards we've been dealt, and decide what the best way to play them is?

 

Either the pitching staff will get better or it won't. The offense isn't going to decide that. All the offense can do is put up as many runs every game as possible. I think this would help, and sitting around saying "the pitching staff should be better" doesn't do anything to win us more games.

 

And changing the lineup which leads baseball in runs isn't going to change anything either. The only thing that could happen is it could get worse.

[Rowand44]

So, here's the question...do we sit here and just keep repeating the "Blame the pitching staff" mantra, or do we actually accept the cards we've been dealt, and decide what the best way to play them is?

 

Either the pitching staff will get better or it won't. The offense isn't going to decide that. All the offense can do is put up as many runs every game as possible. I think this would help, and sitting around saying "the pitching staff should be better" doesn't do anything to win us more games.

The offense is putting up as many runs as they can, I really don't think they could do any better than they are right now. I just don't think it's smart to mess with an offense that has been the best in baseball all year. It has been repeated a lot but everything depends on this teams starting pitching, it's that simple.

[witesoxfan]

And changing the lineup which leads baseball in runs isn't going to change anything either. The only thing that could happen is it could get worse.

 

Or it could start putting up more runs consistently, instead of having our standard 12 run game followed by a 5 run game followed by a 3 run game.

[whitesoxfan101]

Or it could start putting up more runs consistently, instead of having our standard 12 run game followed by a 5 run game followed by a 3 run game.

 

Do you have any statistical evidence to support this?? And also, we should win when we score 5 runs, and we should win when we lead 3-0 early.

 

So you want the offense to be more consistent? This argument is mind boggling, sometimes good pitching goes against us and we only score 3. That happens to EVERY TEAM, you can't score 5 or more every game, and you know what?? If our pitching wasn't so mediocre, we'd win some of the games we only score 3 in.

[Balta1701]

Or it could start putting up more runs consistently, instead of having our standard 12 run game followed by a 5 run game followed by a 3 run game.

There's your key, and that's where I'd be going with this proposal. Yeah, it might cost us 1-2 runs out of every 30. But if it allowed us to space them out just a little bit better, by either setting us up better against left handers or setting us up so it's harder for other teams' bullpens to shut us down for an inning, I think it could turn into more wins.

[Rowand44]

Or it could start putting up more runs consistently, instead of having our standard 12 run game followed by a 5 run game followed by a 3 run game.

The offense has consistantly put up a lot of runs all season long. They had a bad 2 week stretch right after the allstar break and that was basically it. The offense has been outstanding this year.

[whitesoxfan101]

There's your key, and that's where I'd be going with this proposal. Yeah, it might cost us 1-2 runs out of every 30. But if it allowed us to space them out just a little bit better, by either setting us up better against left handers or setting us up so it's harder for other teams' bullpens to shut us down for an inning, I think it could turn into more wins.

 

You can space out your runs scored? That is something I've never heard of or seen in baseball, and you really have a groundbreaking idea here. Hell, we can just borrow 3 runs from some of our 12-3 wins and turn 3-2 losses into 5-3 wins by simply switching around our offense, which is the best in the game?

 

Ok you have me convinced, this foolproof idea shall lead to a repeat.