I can't take this anymore....

[DBAHO]

I am so tired of this argument. No, it is not Ozzie's fault that the starting pitchers are pitching worse this year. But he is exacerbating their negative effect on the team by leaving them in long enough to make sure they have time to get shelled. Dozens of times this season a struggling Sox starter has gotten into the middle innings and started to collapse. Ignoring this, Ozzie has waited until the starter gave up a few runs in the middle innings before finally pulling the starter.

 

Last night is a perfect example. Buehrle wasn't pitching well, but he was hanging in there. We were lucky that Buehrle made it through 6. Through that inning, he had 6ip and 3er. Then in the 7th, Buehrle gives up some hits and walks and Ozzie just sits on his hands until Buehrle has completely imploded. OZZIE turned a mediocre pitching performance into a complete failure. A moderately competent manager would have pulled Buehrle earlier and the bullpen would have given us a better chance to win.

 

This is what Ozzie does. He has no idea how to handle a pitching staff and is managing to make the worst out of mediocre or poor pitching performances.

What about the example of when Javier Vazquez made his last start. Do you want to automatically take him out at the beginning of the 6th inning, just because you think he's going to implode? And it's not like pitchers like Cotts for example have had a great recent record of getting the job done with runners left on base.

 

But I will agree with you about last night's example with Buehrle. Given the fact he had given up 3 solo jacks prior, I think everyone could tell he certainly wasn't anywhere near his best last night.

 

If we're unable to reach the post-season, I will not shrug my shoulders and commend us for winning 90-95 games yet failing to capture a playoff birth. No sympathetic gestures of, "oh well!!! gettem next year!! we can build off this club" will be mentioned under my name. It's failure anyway you rationalize it. Enhancing a World Series roster by bostering a stagnant offense and (supposedly) ungodly starting rotation should guarantee a playoff birth. Those were my expectations, as they currently are to this day. And don't reply, "nothing is guaranteed," because when a general manager constructs a ballclub at the expense of his system, and the overlying theme is "winning now," you damn well better win now. No excuses.

How can those expectations be reached when your SP has pretty much just flat out not pitched to what they are capable of? KW has done his job in terms of enhancing the offense, now it's time for the pitching to pick up the slack.

 

As for your expense of his system, tell Brandon McCarthy, Brian Anderson and Neal Cotts that. Would you still rather Gio, Rowand (who's hitting about .250 now BTW) and Haigwood still in our organization at the expense of Thome?

[SoxHawk1980]

What about the example of when Javier Vazquez made his last start. Do you want to automatically take him out at the beginning of the 6th inning, just because you think he's going to implode? And it's not like pitchers like Cotts for example have had a great recent record of getting the job done with runners left on base.

No, I wouldn't automatically take Vazquez out at the beginning of the 6th inning, but given how poorly he's pitched and how frequently he's imploded in the middle innings, you have to give him a very short leash in the sixth inning. Ozzie hasn't done so. He's waited and waited until Vazquez has gotten into serious trouble, and then he's left Vazquez in, in the hopes that he'll work his way out of it. Of course, Vazquez almost always fails.

[Flash Tizzle]

This is what Ozzie does. He has no idea how to handle a pitching staff and is managing to make the worst out of mediocre or poor pitching performances.

Poorly managed games such as last nights effects our club even more than we may immediately comprehend.

 

It's about the worst situation we could be in. Not only are our pitchers blowing games, but they're hurting us in the future as well.

 

When Guillen leaves in Buehrle, or any other starter, in too long and they're slapped across the diamond their trade value ultimately diminishes. Yes, I know trade value is an issue far from Guillen's mind when he's sitting in the dugout picking his nose. Perhaps if Williams just advised his manager to save his pitchers from complete meltdowns box scores such as last nights could be avoided. Or avoided to the best of the bullpens abilities.

 

I can already forsee what will occur next offseason. A week before Garcia (or whomever else) is delt there's going to be a trade of a starter worse than Garcia for a fairly good package. We'll set expectations based upon that deal, only to be shocked when Williams deals Garcia for a soft tossing, inconsistent, AA prospect; a mediocre bullpen arm; and a 4th OF. The reason for such a poor return will be Williams reluctance to pay any portion of the upcoming years salary. Someone, probably Dbaho, will say, "not even team will give up (package for pitcher worse than Garcia)," or "what did you expect him to get?"

 

All because Guillen left out his starters to ensure personal victories at the expense of his team

Edited August 8, 2006 by Flash Tizzle

[Flash Tizzle]

How can those expectations be reached when your SP has pretty much just flat out not pitched to what they are capable of? KW has done his job in terms of enhancing the offense, now it's time for the pitching to pick up the slack.

 

As for your expense of his system, tell Brandon McCarthy, Brian Anderson and Neal Cotts that. Would you still rather Gio, Rowand (who's hitting about .250 now BTW) and Haigwood still in our organization at the expense of Thome?

I'm not focusing blame upon Williams. Blame would fall entirely on the rotation for failing to achieve expectations. However, next season he can't leave everything as it currently stands. I trust him to move Garcia and insert McCarthy into the starting rotation.

 

For Thome, trading Haigwood/Gonzalez/Rowand could be considered overpaying, but Thome has a proven trackrecord of success. How often do you recall me mentioning either Haigwood or Gonzalez? Including Young for Vazquez and Lumsden for MacDougal are moves I'd qualify as reinforcing "win-now" attitude. A belief in which the cliche "prospects are prospects" is so readily thrown around.

Edited August 8, 2006 by Flash Tizzle

[Texsox]

Amazingly, this team is still one of the top 5 or 6 in all of baseball and would be a favorite in the first round of the playoffs. Since I missed all of June and July I can keep a more positive outlook. I also wasn't jumping off the cliff last year. Get the problems out now and let September roll.

[fathom]

Amazingly, this team is still one of the top 5 or 6 in all of baseball and would be a favorite in the first round of the playoffs.

 

How so? Against quality teams, can we really expect 3 good starts by our starters?

[Texsox]

How so? Against quality teams, can we really expect 3 good starts by our starters?

 

Yes. It's playoff time.

[Hangar18]

WE DIDNT START THE FIRE!

 

 

Hes Right you know. It was always burning since the World was turning .......

 

Some of you just have too high expectations for this team in general after what happened last season. There I said it.

 

We're what 20 games over .500, yet people are criticising Ozzie for his managerial skills.

 

 

BANNED! Just kidding. You make a good point, the bar has been raised for this team and RIGHTLY SO.

What has happened however, is that a very very good AL got even better, so the SOX actually have to raise the bar just a bit higher....................which we know now they werent able to do. My consolation is the SOX will go in the offseason and bolster the bullpen this time around instead of rolling the dice as they did in the offseason. Another very solid starter will help too, perhaps this is the year Buehrle heads to the NL. The SOX will have to know they cant just give games away like candy anymore ............

[BigSqwert]

We're what 20 games over .500, yet people are criticising Ozzie for his managerial skills. Is it Ozzie's fault our SP's in Garcia have basically decided we won't throw as hard this season so we won't be as good?

Ozzie's job is to manage with the talent he was given. If that means he has to use his bullpen in the 6th or 7th, so be it. He is not managing to the talent level of the team and is stuck with his 2005 mentality of trying to run his starting pitchers out there for as long as he can. We're 4+ months into the season and it's obvious to everyone that the starting rotation is having trouble getting deep into a game. Why doesn't Ozzie see that?

Edited August 8, 2006 by BigSqwert

[DBAHO]

I'm not focusing blame upon Williams. Blame would fall entirely on the rotation for failing to achieve expectations. However, next season he can't leave everything as it currently stands. I trust him to move Garcia and insert McCarthy into the starting rotation.

 

For Thome, trading Haigwood/Gonzalez/Rowand could be considered overpaying, but Thome has a proven trackrecord of success. How often do you recall me mentioning either Haigwood or Gonzalez? Including Young for Vazquez and Lumsden for MacDougal are moves I'd qualify as reinforcing "win-now" attitude. A belief in which the cliche "prospects are prospects" is so readily thrown around.

I know you love Lumsden, but I actually like Gonzalez better as a prospect, but that's JMHO. I'd wouldn't 100% classify the MacDougall trade as a "win now" type of trade, you got to remember we'll control Mike's rights until 2009. And that's the important thing you have to remember with the veterans KW trades for, they're usually locked up and won't be 1 year rentals. So thar affords you a little time in re-building your system, and then either using those prospects as trade bait and re-doing the whole process again, or mixing in the young players gradually into the mix.

 

And I think KW's doing quite a bit of both. You'll see Sweeney and Fields on this team in the next 1 to 2 seasons, and possibly a Lance Broadway into the rotation.

 

But you know Kenny, if we don't make the playoffs, you know he's not going to sit on his hands and do nothing this off-season. Think big, I'm talking Roy Oswalt for Jermaine Dye type of deal big here.

[Hangar18]

Poorly managed games such as last nights effects our club even more than we may immediately comprehend.

 

It's about the worst situation we could be in. Not only are our pitchers blowing games, but they're hurting us in the future as well.

 

When Guillen leaves in Buehrle, or any other starter, in too long and they're slapped across the diamond their trade value ultimately diminishes. Yes, I know trade value is an issue far from Guillen's mind when he's sitting in the dugout picking his nose. Perhaps if Williams just advised his manager to save his pitchers from complete meltdowns box scores such as last nights could be avoided. Or avoided to the best of the bullpens abilities.

 

I can already forsee what will occur next offseason. A week before Garcia (or whomever else) is delt there's going to be a trade of a starter worse than Garcia for a fairly good package. We'll set expectations based upon that deal, only to be shocked when Williams deals Garcia for a soft tossing, inconsistent, AA prospect; a mediocre bullpen arm; and a 4th OF. The reason for such a poor return will be Williams reluctance to pay any portion of the upcoming years salary. Someone, probably Dbaho, will say, "not even team will give up (package for pitcher worse than Garcia)," or "what did you expect him to get?"

 

All because Guillen left out his starters to ensure personal victories at the expense of his team

 

This is a good post. Theres about 3 threads worth of stuff here, and I will simply say that the main thing that will be on the SOX tombstone for 06, was Ozzies mis-management of the starting staff to "ensure personal victories". Even if we could take the 5 games that Vazquez was clearly floundering and removed him before the game got out of hand (and couldve won), were looking at being only 5 games out

[DBAHO]

BANNED! Just kidding. You make a good point, the bar has been raised for this team and RIGHTLY SO.

What has happened however, is that a very very good AL got even better, so the SOX actually have to raise the bar just a bit higher....................which we know now they werent able to do. My consolation is the SOX will go in the offseason and bolster the bullpen this time around instead of rolling the dice as they did in the offseason. Another very solid starter will help too, perhaps this is the year Buehrle heads to the NL. The SOX will have to know they cant just give games away like candy anymore ............

Honestly I just think people are going to have to be realistic over the next 5 seasons. We're not automatically going to make the playoffs every season. Just look at the teams in our division;

 

Minny - Fantastic young pitching, and their young hitters like Morneau and Bartlett are starting to rake. They worry me the most.

 

Detroit - We've seen what they are capable of. Just wait until they bring Andrew Miller into the rotation, and you know Mike Illitch will keep spending in the FA market.

 

Cleveland - Yes they've sucked this season, but for the people who actually looked at their situation in terms of the pitchers who had left (Millwood, Riske, Rhodes and Howry) their slide was probably to be expected. BUT, Jeremy Sowers has come in and pitched very well so far, and Adam Miller is rebounding in the minors. No doubt Shapiro will try to uograde the pen this off-season, and they'll be back contending next season for the division title I would think.

 

There's no doubt KW will target possibly 1, probably 2 bullpen guys this off-season. But the core is their in Jenks, Cotts, Thornton and MacDougall for a dominant pen. Those guys just need to be pitching to the levels that they are capable of, and to stay injury free.

 

Don't think Buehrle will be headed anywhere soon. Unless of course the Cardinals wanted to offer us a package included Reyes and Wainwright, which would be awfully tempting.

 

And we could just nab Mark Mulder in FA this off-season to fill a rotation spot.

 

No, I wouldn't automatically take Vazquez out at the beginning of the 6th inning, but given how poorly he's pitched and how frequently he's imploded in the middle innings, you have to give him a very short leash in the sixth inning. Ozzie hasn't done so. He's waited and waited until Vazquez has gotten into serious trouble, and then he's left Vazquez in, in the hopes that he'll work his way out of it. Of course, Vazquez almost always fails.

Well if Vazquez pitches as well as he did last start for the rest of the season, you could look at those times when Ozzie left him in, and kept having confidence in him as a big turning point.

 

Hopefully, with Javy's new arm angle and keeping that leg kick high in the later innings, he can start pitching to the levels that he's capable of.

[Dick Allen]

Reading the morning paper it looks like Buerhle finally has figured out what is causing him to struggle. Its not lights in a scoreboard helping hitters, its not the catcher, its not the high change-ups or the meatball 84 mph fastballs right down the middle of the plate, it turns out its QuesTec's fault. Thank God thats figured out.

[fathom]

Reading the morning paper it looks like Buerhle finally has figured out what is causing him to struggle. Its not lights in a scoreboard helping hitters, its not the catcher, its not the high change-ups or the meatball 84 mph fastballs right down the middle of the plate, it turns out its QuesTec's fault. Thank God thats figured out.

 

Don Cooper was just on the Mike North show, and he blamed QuesTec also. My question is that if we're going to whine about our pitchers not getting the corners, then we might as well get rid of Buehrle, and try to bring in someone who can get a strikeout.

[BigSqwert]

Don Cooper was just on the Mike North show, and he blamed QuesTec also. My question is that if we're going to whine about our pitchers not getting the corners, then we might as well get rid of Buehrle, and try to bring in someone who can get a strikeout.

What a joke. I really wouldn't mind dealing him seeing that we'll probably get good return on value.

[Dick Allen]

Don Cooper was just on the Mike North show, and he blamed QuesTec also. My question is that if we're going to whine about our pitchers not getting the corners, then we might as well get rid of Buehrle, and try to bring in someone who can get a strikeout.

Wasn't QuesTec installed earlier in the season when Buerhle was cruising? Its not like its a new deal. I'm sure he's pitched in stadiums with it for many years, and he's never been lit up like he has been the last month. Excuses are just so weak IMO. If you suck, just say you suck. I'm really dissappointed in Buerhle, I thought he was more of a man than this. He needs to hold himself accountable for his struggles.

[Controlled Chaos]

Wasn't QuesTec installed earlier in the season when Buerhle was cruising? Its not like its a new deal. I'm sure he's pitched in stadiums with it for many years, and he's never been lit up like he has been the last month. Excuses are just so weak IMO. If you suck, just say you suck. I'm really dissappointed in Buerhle, I thought he was more of a man than this. He needs to hold himself accountable for his struggles.

Hey Dick, Did you watch the game?

[Milkman delivers]

Some of you just have too high expectations for this team in general after what happened last season. There I said it.

 

Please forgive us for expecting more out of a team with a $100 million payroll. We should be thankful for the fact that the team seems complacent with being "pretty good." They sure are earning their checks.

[Controlled Chaos]

Please forgive us for expecting more out of a team with a $100 million payroll. We should be thankful for the fact that the team seems complacent with being "pretty good." They sure are earning their checks.

You live to b****....

[Milkman delivers]

Amazingly, this team is still one of the top 5 or 6 in all of baseball and would be a favorite in the first round of the playoffs. Since I missed all of June and July I can keep a more positive outlook. I also wasn't jumping off the cliff last year. Get the problems out now and let September roll.

 

This excuse used to be that we were the #2 team in baseball. Then, it was that we're #3.

 

Soon, we'll be happy ( ) that we're hovering around .500, woohoo!

 

You live to b****....

 

And you live to bury your head in the sand.

[BigSqwert]

This excuse used to be that we were the #2 team in baseball. Then, it was that we're #3.

 

Soon, we'll be happy ( ) that we're hovering around .500, woohoo!

And you live to bury your head in the sand.

I'm looking forward to the "We're only 5 games out of the wildcard" days.

[Hangar18]

I'm looking forward to the "We're only 5 games out of the wildcard" days.

 

 

Heh heh. And then we'll be just like the imbeciles 8miles north

[klaus kinski]

I dont get to see every minute of every game, but can anyone recall if Buehrle has hit 85mph this year with a pitch? There just seems to be little difference between his 80 mph fast ball and 75 mph curve/change.

[Controlled Chaos]

This excuse used to be that we were the #2 team in baseball. Then, it was that we're #3.

 

Soon, we'll be happy ( ) that we're hovering around .500, woohoo!

And you live to bury your head in the sand.

I'm not burying my head in the sand. I know we haven't played well, but there's a difference between not playing well and not believing we're capable of playing well. I won't go so far as to say you root for them too do bad. I know you're a fan and want them to win, but you do revel in their losses. It gives you a chance to come on here and complain. This guy sucks, that guy sucks, gm sucks, coach sucks. We need to do this or that.... It's like you get to be the GM/Coach except when you're wrong and you were way wrong last year....nobody gives a crap. It's fun, there's no accountablity in what you do. When they're winning you don't have much to say. You might complain about a couple guys that aren't playing well, but overall you don't have much to contribute. I think you're favorite game is one where the Sox suck at almost every facet of the game, but still win. As a fan you still get the win, but with all the suckage you get to come on here and question everything....you live for that stuff. You can't wait to come on here and call someone out.

 

 

and to address BigSquirt....

 

Yeah if they're 5 games out of the wildcard, what's wrong with saying we're only 5 games out of the wildcard?? As a fan what are you suppose to do, hope for them to lose cause they're 5 back?? You root for them to find that magic and make a run...If they can make the playoffs anything can happen. I mean I know it's not the best position to be in, but it's not out of contention so you cheer for em to win it all. What benefit is there to saying, they have no chance, if mathmatically and realistically they do??

[Wealz]

So you don't think Tom Kelly is a better manager than Ozzie Guillen?

 

Is Kelly's winning percentage better than .586?