Ozzie Manuel

[Kyyle23]

* Directing fierce anger at Sean Tracey for failing to intentionally hitting a batter, then sending him to the minors because of it.

 

 

I cant stop laughing at this. Fierce anger, LMAO.

 

It looked more like intense anger than fierce anger. LOL

 

What did you think about one of your listed "good" managers, Lou Piniella, when he directed his fierce anger towards Rob Dibble and brawled with him?

Edited January 10, 2007 by kyyle23

[rpmahr]

he didnt add mccarthy over marte because we needed the extra lefty and there was no way to know that marte would be so unclutch. you cant blame the manager for how a team can not play up to expectations. our team era was somewhere in the mid 4's when we are supposed to be a pitching team. the fire wasnt there from the players this year. that is the reason why we didnt win. ozzie is an aggressive manager and that is what you need in baseball these days. manuel was one of the most passive managers i can think of.

[Gregory Pratt]

I'll take a quick crack at a few of these.

 

Using Rob Mackowiak in center field because of a personal grudge he had against Brian Anderson.

 

Also because he sucked for much of the year.

 

Directing fierce anger at Sean Tracey for failing to intentionally hitting a batter, then sending him to the minors because of it.

 

Also because he couldn't hit the broadside of Blalock's ass, his control is so bad.

You understand that Tracey is nowhere near ready for the Majors, right? That his control is terrible? For that alone he deserves to be sent down, and he especially deserves it when he blatantly disregards his manager's order.

 

* Guillen regularly makes personnel decisions based on his relationships with players, not based on what's best for the team: Tracey, Anderson, McCarthy, Marte, Garcia.

 

Right. Guillen's the only manager who ever took his player's opinions into regard. It be much better if he left them off the ASG Roster (like Garner) or spread rumors about them to the NY Media (like Torre).

 

Horrible handling of his pitching staff, regularly leaving startes in games too long, after they've become ineffective.

 

Personally, I think Ozzie handles a pitching staff that way it should be handled.

 

Failure to protect his players in multiple instances with opposing pitchers' hitting Sox batters.

 

Yet he shouldn't be angry when someone fails to protect his players when he sends them to.

 

Allowing his relative Freddy G to show up teammates after they error in the field.

 

This one is the least subjective of them all. I clearly remember that Ozzie called a team meeting to discipline Freddy after he showed up Iguchi and I'm sure it happened the other times, too.

 

* Incomprehensibly not getting the 2006 Sox to the playoffs.

 

It's his fault that Jim Thome got tendonitis, Joe Crede's back flared, the offense disappeared and each pitcher disappeared for significant portions of the season.

[shoota]

I cant stop laughing at this. Fierce anger, LMAO.

 

It looked more like intense anger than fierce anger. LOL

 

What did you think about one of your listed "good" managers, Lou Piniella, when he directed his fierce anger towards Rob Dibble and brawled with him?

 

I don't think "fierce anger" is unsuitable, but even if it is, your decision to respond to my grammar and not the points in my post reveal that my ideas are valid or you lack the ability to disprove them.

 

The Piniella/Dibble situation is quite different from the Guillen/Tracey situation.

[Kyyle23]

I don't think "fierce anger" is unsuitable, but even if it is, your decision to respond to my grammar and not the points in my post reveal that my ideas are valid or you lack the ability to disprove them.

 

The Piniella/Dibble situation is quite different from the Guillen/Tracey situation.

 

I didnt respond to your grammar, I responded to your choice of words.

 

Lack of ability to disprove, thats funny. You listed all those opinions of why YOU dont like Ozzie as a manager, and therefore it must be right. I get it. Thats fierce, man.

[RockRaines]

Wow that list is the largest generalization of crapola that I have ever read. I not even going to respond to it since you overlooked my post and decided to try and write something in your favor.

[santo=dorf]

I like how it's OK for fans to piss and moan when Mackowiak misplays yet another flyball, then blame Ozzie for being too dense to not play Mack in CF and call him a bad manager because of it, yet when Freddy stares at him or throws his hands up he's a bad teammate.

 

I guess that makes the original complaining posters like shoota "bad fans."

 

Get back to me when the Sox are eliminated from playoff contention. And even then, I'll blame the starting pitching more than I would Ozzie. It would be tough for a lot of managers to win when an entire starting staff, especially one as potent as this year's staff was supposed to be, craps its pants for an entire year.

How come the second part of this quote wasn't bolded as well? It's very accurate.

[WCSox]

I'll take a quick crack at a few of these.

Also because he sucked for much of the year.

 

 

 

Also because he couldn't hit the broadside of Blalock's ass, his control is so bad.

You understand that Tracey is nowhere near ready for the Majors, right? That his control is terrible? For that alone he deserves to be sent down, and he especially deserves it when he blatantly disregards his manager's order.

Right. Guillen's the only manager who ever took his player's opinions into regard. It be much better if he left them off the ASG Roster (like Garner) or spread rumors about them to the NY Media (like Torre).

 

 

 

Personally, I think Ozzie handles a pitching staff that way it should be handled.

 

 

 

Yet he shouldn't be angry when someone fails to protect his players when he sends them to.

 

 

 

This one is the least subjective of them all. I clearly remember that Ozzie called a team meeting to discipline Freddy after he showed up Iguchi and I'm sure it happened the other times, too.

It's his fault that Jim Thome got tendonitis, Joe Crede's back flared, the offense disappeared and each pitcher disappeared for significant portions of the season.

 

While I don't agree with everything that Ozzie does, his "mishandling" of the '06 Sox is nothing more than a myth created by a bunch of fair-weather fans who don't understand baseball very well.

[shoota]

I'll take a quick crack at a few of these.

Also because he sucked for much of the year.

 

Sure, Anderson was a bad offensive player in the first half, and Mackowiak’s center field defense wasn’t well known. My criticism is based on the second half, when Anderson gave the team the better option to win than Mackowiak.

 

 

Also because he couldn't hit the broadside of Blalock's ass, his control is so bad. You understand that Tracey is nowhere near ready for the Majors, right? That his control is terrible? For that alone he deserves to be sent down, and he especially deserves it when he blatantly disregards his manager's order.

 

Tracey performed poorly in his time in the majors, and it’s understandable he would be sent back to the minor leagues. My criticism of Guillen is based on his verbal assault towards Tracey that was of no benefit to anyone. The Guillen water bottle-throwing tantrum is reactionary, like a child who didn’t get his way (hitting Blalock).

 

 

Right. Guillen's the only manager who ever took his player's opinions into regard. It be much better if he left them off the ASG Roster (like Garner) or spread rumors about them to the NY Media (like Torre).

 

Haha, you’ve missed the point. I said “Guillen regularly makes personnel decisions based on his relationships with players, not based on what's best for the team,” to explain how he limits and awards playing time based on factors outside playing ability.

 

 

 

Personally, I think Ozzie handles a pitching staff that way it should be handled.

 

I disagree and cite Guillen’s poor decisions of letting Vazquez repeatedly fail in the 6 inning, his choise to allow his most dominant pitcher adjust his mechanics and pitch through injury while performing far from his peak ability, not understanding the role of a long man, and not allowing McCarthy to pitch in the rotation for one of his ineffective starting pitchers. (The argument that McCarthy wasn’t stretched out has been debunked).

 

 

 

Yet he shouldn't be angry when someone fails to protect his players when he sends them to.

 

I don’t disagree with retaliatory pitches, but for the way Guillen handled these situations. For example, AJP was twice intentionally HBP by a pitcher who had great control before Guillen ordered retaliation. Had Guillen ordered retaliation after the first HBP, AJP might not have been hit a second time.

 

 

 

This one is the least subjective of them all. I clearly remember that Ozzie called a team meeting to discipline Freddy after he showed up Iguchi and I'm sure it happened the other times, too.

 

Yeah, that’s pretty subjective on my part.

 

It's his fault that Jim Thome got tendonitis, Joe Crede's back flared, the offense disappeared and each pitcher disappeared for significant portions of the season.

 

I never cited those reasons why Guillen is to blame for failing to get the Sox in the 2006 playoffs. For the most part, injuries are out of a manager’s control, so it wouldn’t be fair for me to criticize a manager because of the injuries to his players. I believe had Guillen made better decisions in the criticisms I did cite, the Sox would have made the playoffs at minimum.

Edited January 11, 2007 by shoota

[WCSox]

Sure, Anderson was a bad offensive player in the first half, and Mackowiak’s center field defense wasn’t well known. My criticism is based on the second half, when Anderson gave the team the better option to win than Mackowiak.

 

Did it ever occur to you that Anderson may have had limited playing time for disciplinary reasons? He does have a history of cocky, immature behavior.

[Kalapse]

Did it ever occur to you that Anderson may have had limited playing time for disciplinary reasons? He does have a history of cocky, immature behavior.

Then find a legit 4th OF, it's really not that hard. Anyone who could play even average defense in CF would have helped the Sox out a whole lot last season. If you're going to be disciplining your players then go to your general manager and request a player to fill in. There was no reason at all for Mackowiak to be starting in CF last year when he or Gload should have been starting in LF.

[Balta1701]

Did it ever occur to you that Anderson may have had limited playing time for disciplinary reasons? He does have a history of cocky, immature behavior.

First of all, if that were the case, i think it's pretty likely we'd have heard something specific about it...I believe at least Uribe was sat for a game because he didn't run hard to first if memory serves.

 

That's simply not at all what we saw with Anderson/Mack in the 2nd half. After Anderson finally started stringing some hits togehter and Mack went ice cold, Mack was still in there against what seemed like a majority of righties. Anderson was protected from such dominating righties as Bruce Chen, Vicente Padilla, and so on.

 

And almost every time Mack was in CF, he directly led to the opponent scoring another run or two. I will still sit here and say that from what I saw, if Rob Mackowiak had never played CF for the White Sox in the 2nd half of 2006, the White Sox would have made the playoffs. The difference in defense was that huge.

 

So if Anderson was so evil that he was being disciplined 1 out of every 3 games...to the point that it cost us a shot at the playoffs, then Brian should have been sent down or traded at the middle of last season.

[RockRaines]

Then find a legit 4th OF, it's really not that hard. Anyone who could play even average defense in CF would have helped the Sox out a whole lot last season. If you're going to be disciplining your players then go to your general manager and request a player to fill in. There was no reason at all for Mackowiak to be starting in CF last year when he or Gload should have been starting in LF.

So, is Ozzie terrible for not playing Brian enough? Or not playing Mack enough?

[WCSox]

First of all, if that were the case, i think it's pretty likely we'd have heard something specific about it....

 

Not necessarily. I imagine that we hear very little of what goes on in the clubhouse.

 

One of my sister's friends knows BA from their days at the U of A and I've been told that he isn't the most mature person in the world... even by pro athlete standards. I do know of one incident (BA getting showboating in a limo after the WS) that drew the ire of his teammates. And after reading some of BA's quotes in the local papers last year about his attitude towards "the honeys", I can see how a manager could have issues with a player like him.

 

I'm not saying that Ozzie's decision to play Mack in CF was right or wrong. But I could that Anderson's lack of playing time may have had a lot to do with his attitude.

Edited January 11, 2007 by WCSox

[shoota]

Did it ever occur to you that Anderson may have had limited playing time for disciplinary reasons? He does have a history of cocky, immature behavior.

 

Which ties into my criticism of Guillen putting personal relationships ahead of what's best for the team.

 

Guillen's not the most rational guy, he's not a leader like Scott Skiles. Guillen's macho "a mi manera" attitude puts his ego in front of the team's benefit.

[WCSox]

Guillen's not the most rational guy, he's not a leader like Scott Skiles. Guillen's macho "a mi manera" attitude puts his ego in front of the team's benefit.

 

LOL, Scott Skiles.

 

Guillen's "macho attitude" brought this team a championship. That's a lot more than I can say for Scott Freaking Skiles.

[Kalapse]

So, is Ozzie terrible for not playing Brian enough? Or not playing Mack enough?

I can't say I really understand the question seeing as how I never said Ozzie was terrible to begin with. Ozzie did f*** up last year by having a corner OF/infielder play CF for 63 too many games when it was not at all necessary. Either play Anderson in CF everyday or go find someone else who can play the position. I think Mack got a perfect number of ABs last year just at the wrong position the 436 innings he played in CF probably should have been played in left.

[WCSox]

If you're going to be disciplining your players then go to your general manager and request a player to fill in.

 

I don't disagree with you, but did you consider that maybe he did and maybe KW said "no"? KW has always been a big BA supporter and he very well may have refused a request to send him down to the minors.

[shoota]

I like how it's OK for fans to piss and moan when Mackowiak misplays yet another flyball, then blame Ozzie for being too dense to not play Mack in CF and call him a bad manager because of it, yet when Freddy stares at him or throws his hands up he's a bad teammate.

 

There's a difference between fans accurately noting a manager's bad decisions and a pitcher who lets his emotions control his physical movements and demeanor. One takes place on a message board; the other occurs on-field and could hurt team chemistry and damage individual and team performance.

 

 

 

I guess that makes the original complaining posters like shoota "bad fans."

How come the second part of this quote wasn't bolded as well? It's very accurate.

 

Well, part of the reason the 2006 staff performed so poorly is because of Guillen's decisions on how to use them. Thus, the blame for not making the playoffs circles right back to Guillen.

[Kalapse]

I don't disagree with you, but did you consider that maybe he did and maybe KW said "no"? KW has always been a big BA supporter and he very well may have refused a request to send him down to the minors.

No because that's pretty ridiculous. Even if KW is a big BA fan he's not going to leave him on the roster if he's not going to be used correctly. The use of Mack in CF last year hurt the team big time and lead to more than a handful of losses, KW knows this and has said it a few times on Chicago Sports Radio. He's not going to put his like/dislike of a player over what's best for the team this much is true. If Ozzie went to KW and requested a CF, KW would have gone right out and got him one and from what has been said in the media no such request was ever made.

[RockRaines]

I can't say I really understand the question seeing as how I never said Ozzie was terrible to begin with. Ozzie did f*** up last year by having a corner OF/infielder play CF for 63 too many games when it was not at all necessary. Either play Anderson in CF everyday or go find someone else who can play the position. I think Mack got a perfect number of ABs last year just at the wrong position the 436 innings he played in CF probably should have been played in left.

Yeah, but he really had no other option, that is an evil when you break in a struggling Rookie in CF with no other legit CF'ers on your team.

[Gregory Pratt]

I'm mainly bowing out, Shoota. I'll just say that I respectfully disagree on most your points and leave it at that.

 

However, I must say that I think it's nonsense when people say Javier Vazquez was mishandled by Ozzie Guillen by letting him out there until he either succeeded or failed. Toward the end of the season we saw, I think, that Javier was growing as a player from the confidences shown him and I think we'll see a very good year out of Vazquez next year partly as a result.

 

All the same, I think it's crazy when people say, "He should've been pulled in the sixth, before he imploded!" as if that's practical in any sense of the term. That's crazy, I think, with no disrespect intended.

[RockRaines]

There's a difference between fans accurately noting a manager's bad decisions and a pitcher who lets his emotions control his physical movements and demeanor. One takes place on a message board; the other occurs on-field and could hurt team chemistry and damage individual and team performance.

Well, part of the reason the 2006 staff performed so poorly is because of Guillen's decisions on how to use them. Thus, the blame for not making the playoffs circles right back to Guillen.

Hmmm. So all pitchers should be emotionless, and Ozzie was the one who cause extreme regression in his pitchers because he handled them poorly. I bet Mark Buehrle, as he was treated the same in every other season he ptiched for the sox, would love to blame his terrible season on Ozzie. It would then take the blame off of him where it belongs.

[Rowand44]

Yeah, but he really had no other option, that is an evil when you break in a struggling Rookie in CF with no other legit CF'ers on your team.

I hate to get back to this Anderson/Mack stuff. But Anderson was just as good as Mack offensively in the 2nd half of the season. And we all know the huge difference that the two bring defensively. Yet, in the 2nd half of the season, Mack continued to play 3-4 times a week in center for absolutely no reason, costing us a bunch of games defensively.

[RockRaines]

All the same, I think it's crazy when people say, "He should've been pulled in the sixth, before he imploded!" as if that's practical in any sense of the term. That's crazy, I think, with no disrespect intended.

Those are the same people who say, Ahhh he had a 2 hitter going before he let him hit that 2 run bomb, Ozzie shoulda pulled him!!!!!

 

Some people on here want Ozzie to be a soothsayer, just like the "great" managers that were mentioned.