Buehrle/McCarthy

[SpringfieldFan]

Oz must use different math or something. McCarthy started at least a half a dozen games down the stretch last year and in those starts had an ERA of well under 2. If he has a reason, fine, and that's his prerogative. But the numbers game won't cut it.

 

SFF

[Soxbadger]

B-Mac is not the messiah.

 

I can remember when these threads used to be about Cotts being in the rotation.

 

If B-Mac was that dominant, he would have shown it in the pen. He has nice stats, but right now he is more important to the White Sox in the pen than in the starting rotation. Some times guys like B-Mac become relievers, but on the White Sox he is the 6th best starter, and therefore needs to be in the pen.

 

If Ozzie puts B-Mac in the rotation and he gets shelled, the Sox are done. Our pitchers have the talent, its just time for them to buckle down and realize that they can not give anymore games way.

[MarlinFan84]

If B-Mac was that dominant, he would have shown it in the pen. He has nice stats, but right now he is more important to the White Sox in the pen than in the starting rotation. Some times guys like B-Mac become relievers, but on the White Sox he is the 6th best starter, and therefore needs to be in the pen.

 

Some, if not most, guys who have been conditioned to start for pretty much their entire wont be much more than average out of the pen.

[fathom]

Some, if not most, guys who have been conditioned to start for pretty much their entire wont be much more than average out of the pen.

 

Especially someone who's not coming out of the pen throwing 98 mph. McCarthy's a "feel" pitcher, and I don't think he's confident in his offspeed pitches coming out of the pen.

[Soxbadger]

Your right,

 

Liriano, Santana, all the other saviors had real problems in the pen.

 

Care to back up your opinion with any proof?

 

From my experience, it is easier for a pitcher to go from the starting rotation to the pen, then vice versa. You have guys like Gagne, etc who have become dominant in the pen.

 

Gagne was a SP prior to being converted btw.

[Punch and Judy Garland]

So the Sox traded for Vasquez...a guy who last year put up a 4.42 ERA and 1.25 WHIP primarily against the worst division in baseball(the NL West)...so McCarthy wouldn't get to start?

 

That doesn't make any sense, espicially when you figure Vasquez has...at best...been average for his career yet sucked most of the time.

 

It was also criminally dumb to trade Young for Vasquez in the first place.

 

Yeah I didn't hate it at the time but I didn't like it either. I didn't understand why you trade away a CF prospect when you also trade away your starting CF. I did think Anderson would hit better though. I have Vazquez on a fantasy team or two the last few years and you can actually learn about guys from having them on your team. I learned you can't trust him. Since he had a good outing though I find it comical that guys like Hawk say that his problems are all in the past and he's back on track. Just out of curiosity as a sidebar, was Curt Schilling the last guy to have a successful season moving from the NL to the AL? Am i missing someone there?

[Soxbadger]

Fathom,

 

If B-Mac's problem is the pen, then why are his stats basically the same this year as last year?

 

It would seem that if the pen truely was a problem he would of tanked.

[Balta1701]

Fathom,

 

If B-Mac's problem is the pen, then why are his stats basically the same this year as last year?

 

It would seem that if the pen truely was a problem he would of tanked.

Because his stats last year are made significantly worse overall by the fact that he was totally off his game for the first part of the year when he was called up to replace El Duque (and while he still should have been in AAA, getting a better handle on his changeup and when to throw it.)

[fathom]

Your right,

 

Liriano, Santana, all the other saviors had real problems in the pen.

 

Care to back up your opinion with any proof?

 

From my experience, it is easier for a pitcher to go from the starting rotation to the pen, then vice versa. You have guys like Gagne, etc who have become dominant in the pen.

 

Gagne was a SP prior to being converted btw.

 

A lot of the times, starting pitchers are turned into relievers because they lose their velocity as their pitch count increase and they only have one or two pitches (example is Neal Cotts). McCarthy is the opposite of this type of pitcher. Someone like Liriano shouldn't be used as an example...he's a rare talent.

 

Fathom,

 

If B-Mac's problem is the pen, then why are his stats basically the same this year as last year?

 

It would seem that if the pen truely was a problem he would of tanked.

 

If McCarthy is as average as you think, then everyone in our organization should be fired for not being willing to trade him for some marquee talent.

[Felix]

A lot of the times, starting pitchers are turned into relievers because they lose their velocity as their pitch count increase

Or they are like Bobby Jenks/Kerry Wood and just can't pitch the innings required without likely getting hurt. (I think this was the case with Gagne, although I could be wrong)

Edited August 9, 2006 by Felix

[fathom]

Or they are like Bobby Jenks/Kerry Wood and just can't pitch the innings required without likely getting hurt. (I think this was the case with Gagne, although I could be wrong)

 

Or maybe Gagne went to the bullpen and discovered something magical

[Soxbadger]

I never said B-Mac was average, although I doubt he will ever be a 1 or 2 on a great team. I did say that on this team, B-Mac is the 6th best starter.

 

B-Mac even if he was stretched out to begin the season would of at most been going 6-7 innings, it is clear that Ozzie wants more out of his starters. If he just wanted a guy who was dominant for 5-7 innings, he would pull Vaz before any trouble started. But Ozzie wants starters who go deep, and B-Mac is not there yet. This year would of been his first full season in the bigs and the Sox could not take a chance that he would start to lose it as the innings piled up.

 

In retrospect, it seems that almost all of our pitchers, outside of Vaz, have suffered at some point from being overworked the last 2 years. They just do not look as sharp as they were last year, and it seems that fatigue is setting in. If anything this is why B-Mac is the most important guy to the Sox in the pen, because outside of Cotts and him, no one else can go out and pitch more than 1 inning on consecutive nights. The Sox do not have any rubber arm guys who can eat up pen innings.

 

Therefore at this point, I do not see how you can put B-Mac in the rotation without severely putting this season in jeapordy. And I do not see any reason why if B-Mac was put in the rotation this year, he would all of a sudden be dominant. Perhaps next year, but I believe this year the ship has sailed.

[Balta1701]

I never said B-Mac was average, although I doubt he will ever be a 1 or 2 on a great team.

Just wait.

[RockRaines]

Mark is the most likely to turn it around. He is the leader of the rotation. He will turn it around.

[Soxbadger]

Balta,

 

Believe me, I have all the patience in the world.

 

Im still waiting on Scott Ruffcorn.

[VAfan]

I've felt -- and posted -- for a long time that McCarthy would be most valuable used in the role he should have been in all year -- long relief.

 

He's pitched fewer than 60 innings on the season, and 120-130 isn't going to hurt him. So, over the last 51 regular season games, I would use McCarthy as the first pitcher out of the pen in the 5th, 6th, or 7th innings when our starters appear not to have their best stuff any more. For the good of the team, Ozzie must scrap his 100-pitch plan for all starters and relieve them before leads are blown or deficits exaggerated in the 5th or later innings. McCarthy is the perfect guy to do this and carry the game for a couple innings. In that way he can lessen the stress on both the starters and the rest of the bullpen.

 

This could have a dual effect of both winning some more games, every one of which is critical, but also lessening the arm stress on guys like Buehrle and Garcia who could clearly use the break. Had Ozzie used this plan, we can all identify at least 4-5 games where it likely would have made the difference between winning and losing.

 

The other option -- putting McCarthy in the rotation -- doesn't solve much. He's not used to starting this year, and might have a rocky outing or two until he adjusts. And our $10 million/year starter -- whether it's Buerhle, Vazquez, or Garcia, would have to adjust to the pen as well. Plus, any move to put a starter on the DL just robs us of pitching depth when we are facing 24 games without an off day.

[Dick Allen]

Nope. I don't care if Mark is struggling, he's earned the right to work out the issues. That last start would have been fine if it weren't for a bad call. Let him work it out.

I have no problem having Buerhle work out his issues, but it shouldn't be at the expense of the team. When he gets in trouble late, get him out of there. I don't understand having your bullpen ready when the score is 3-2, and not using them until the score is 6-2. Maybe Ozzie is sick of all the McCarthy talk, but I bet you BMac has at least as much trade value as 4 of our starters, and maybe all 5.

[BobDylan]

'If [starting McCarthy] went through my mind, we would have done it already,'' Guillen said. ''I think those five guys we bring -- put it this way, if we throw those five guys from my starting rotation in the air, they won't land. Somebody would pick them up.

 

''Everyone talks about McCarthy. Last year we threw McCarthy, and he wasn't too good either. OK? Check the records. Thank you. Everyone thinks McCarthy is [blank]-damn Cy Young.''

http://www.suntimes.com/output/sox/cst-spt-soxnt09.html

 

Ouch.

 

You've got to think with comments like this and the teams current performance (in terms of games thrown away), Ozzie's going to be under the microscope. This is a manager who's known for boosting confidence. If that were a quote about me, I'd be crushed and I wouldn't want to play for Ozzie anymore. That's a step way over the line if you ask me.

 

EDIT:

 

I read the article. I think his quote is taken a bit out of context in this post.

 

"I don't think McCarthy has the stuff and experience right now,'' Guillen said. ''I don't start McCarthy in front of those guys yet. In the future? Yes. But right now? No, I don't think he should.''

 

That's the kicker. But I still think Guillen crossed the line. I don't think he should be talking about a pitchers "stuff" and saying it isn't there yet. He should be praising his starters, talking about how he still has confidence in them, and saying McCarthy is an important piece of the bullpen right now.

 

Buehrle shouldn't be taken out of the rotation. A few years back he had a stretch where he lost 9 games in a row. This is the way it goes for Mark, unfortunately it's happening at a time where the Sox can ill afford it.

Edited August 9, 2006 by BobDylan

[Rowand44]

Your right,

 

Liriano, Santana, all the other saviors had real problems in the pen.

Liriano's era was over a run higher this year in the bullpen. Santana's career era in the pen is close to a run higher than his era in the rotation.

 

There is no doubt in my mind that Brandon would be the 2nd or 3rd best starter on our team this year, now Buehrle isn't the right person to replace but Bmac should have been in the rotation a while ago imo. Anyways, I'm really starting to dislike Ozzie. Just thought everyone would like to know.

[nitetrain8601]

I agree with what Ozzie is saying about McCarthy being thought of Cy Young, especially amongst the fans around here. And I also wouldn't put McCarthy in the rotation either simply because it's rather late and it's kind of a shot to the team's "leader" or one of them.

[southsideirish]

QUOTE(nitetrain8601 @ Aug 9, 2006 -> 08:27 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I agree with what Ozzie is saying about McCarthy being thought of Cy Young, especially amongst the fans around here. And I also wouldn't put McCarthy in the rotation either simply because it's rather late and it's kind of a shot to the team's "leader" or one of them.

 

 

 

I also agree with that. Actually, I agree with every single thing Ozzie said. I don't have a problem with it at all. I think others will take one quote out of context and make it a huge big deal/tragedy, but I don't think he said one thing that isn't true.

[Kalapse]

I also agree with that. Actually, I agree with every single thing Ozzie said. I don't have a problem with it at all. I think others will take one quote out of context and make it a huge big deal/tragedy, but I don't think he said one thing that isn't true.

So McCarthy was bad last year?

[BigSqwert]

Solid:

 

[TheBigHurt]

Right now, we need Brandon McCarthy to take over every slot in the rotation.

[TitoMB345]

Right now, we need Brandon McCarthy to take over every slot in the rotation.

Not so sure that should be greened....