Left field

[BobDylan]

He was brought in to face Farnsworth I believe, not Rivera.

 

You are correct.

[Kalapse]

He was brought in to face Farnsworth I believe, not Rivera.

And sadly, he K'd against both.

[southsideirish71]

Since the allstar break...

 

Pods .215BA .273OBP He is 3 for 4 in SB. 16ks vs 5bb

Ozuna is hitting .080, with a .115 OBP, He is 0 for 1 in SB, he has 1bb and 10ks

 

That is really really bad for our leadoff crew.

 

Too bad KW didnt pick up Brady Clark. He jacked one off of Zambrano tonight. That .380OBP would be nice in front of the thumpers we have. And unlike our tandem of antiproduction, he has hit .327 with a .379OBP since the allstar break.

 

AVG .284 | HR 2 | RBI 22 | OBP .380 | SLG .340

Edited August 10, 2006 by southsideirish71

[Milkman delivers]

Since the allstar break...

 

Pods .215BA .273OBP He is 3 for 4 in SB. 16ks vs 5bb

Ozuna is hitting .080, with a .115 OBP, He is 0 for 1 in SB, he has 1bb and 10ks

 

That is really really bad for our leadoff crew.

 

Too bad KW didnt pick up Brady Clark. He jacked one off of Zambrano tonight. That .380OBP would be nice in front of the thumpers we have. And unlike our tandem of antiproduction, he has hit .327 with a .379OBP since the allstar break.

 

AVG .284 | HR 2 | RBI 22 | OBP .380 | SLG .340

 

I thought the 4th OF was a complete luxury and wouldn't help us at all?

[RockRaines]

We should of made a play for Brady Clark. I am sure that he could of helped us out in LF and also gave us a good option to spell Brian from time to time.

I really wish we could get Freel. He would be a perfect fit.

[Felix]

I really wish we could get Freel. He would be a perfect fit.

Yep, he and Bobby could go out together drinking after every game

[Pants Rowland]

Gonna add something stupid that I will get beat up for....

 

Last offseason when everyone got all excited about picking up Jim Thome, I thought, "Wasn't Lyle Overbay available?" Thome kicked ass early in the season but from July on he has been frustrating to watch. He also can not play any position other than DH. What's my point?

 

Toronto got Overbay for a song. Look at his numbers right now (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/stats?playerId=4598). He is not a monster like Thome, but his strikout totals are far fewer. He is also way cheaper and would not have cost us the players we gave up to get Thome, particularly Mr. Rowand. I have heard how poor a hitter Rowand was and how he misjudged fly balls sometimes. But if you could have kept Rowand in center, had Overbay and Konerko to share first base and DH duties, thus eliminating the need for Ross Gload and then either had Brian Anderson available to be the 4th outfielder or had the extra money for a quality reserve outfielder, would you do it? Many will say no. Just remember, Kenny's success is usually when he does not go for the big name trade. Last year's success was built on the backs of guys like Iguchi, Dye, Contreras, and Pierzynski. Without those guys this year would be a disaster, too. I wish Kenny would look at the champions of the past and see that too many slugging superstars does not equate to a title. It worked in Boston but their lineup was still far more balanced that what the White Sox have now. Rather than pushing Sox toward more versatility iwth extra speed and defense, he took a big gamble that the addition of Thome would make up for the loss of Rowand and the risk of a rookie center fielder.

Edited August 10, 2006 by Beltin'Bill

[Balta1701]

Toronto got Overbay for a song. Look at his numbers right now (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/stats?playerId=4598). He is not a monster like Thome, but his strikout totals are far fewer. He is also way cheaper and would not have cost us the players we gave up to get Thome, particularly Mr. Rowand.

I understand your arguments, but frankly, all things considered, I think you're wrong here. Toronto is paying less for Overbay this year than we are paying for Thome, correct. Toronto is paying $2.5 million for Overbay this year. However, this was, IIRC, his first arbitration year. Next year, that number is probably going to double, to the $4-$5 million level. Which means, given the amount of Cash the White Sox got from the Phillies, he will only be a couple million cheaper than what we have Thome for ($14 million a season for 3 years, with the phillies chipping in over $20 million, IIRC). The difference in production between the two, IMO, is clearly worth an extra $7-8 million over 3 years. There's also the value of having a gigantic, SCARY bat in your lineup, the kind of guy that teams have to game plan around, which is also not shown in the stats.

 

It is also worth noting that in that scenario, we'd also still be paying for Rowand, which this year, would eat up another $3.2 million of the difference, and I think more next year. So in other words, you'd be paying basically teh same amount for Overbay and Rowand that you are for Thome and Anderson.

 

And sadly, ARow's offensive stats are still nothing to write home about either this year. .258 BA, 12 home runs, actually a little worse than he was last year in BA, little better in power.

[Heads22]

I'm still on the Fields in LF bandwagon next year. He's got the athleticism. He's probably a better baserunner than Pods too, although my grandmother is at this point.

 

The only thing that concerns me about Josh is (besides the K's) his exorbitant BABIP. I believe it's still over .400, even if a lot of that is just becuase he hits the ball damn hard.

 

BABIP 418

Home BABIP .471

 

That is an UNREAL home average.

[The Ginger Kid]

should've pulled the trigger on a deal for Crisp.

 

Too bad there aren't any options down in the minors, someone who could spark this club.

[Felix]

should've pulled the trigger on a deal for Crisp.

 

Too bad there aren't any options down in the minors, someone who could spark this club.

You mean the deal that would have sent Mark Buehrle to Boston? Surely you jest.

[The Ginger Kid]

You mean the deal that would have sent Mark Buehrle to Boston? Surely you jest.

I thought I read that it was Freddy.

[Balta1701]

I thought I read that it was Freddy.

Buster Olney said Buehrle.

[NorthSideSox72]

I'm still on the Fields in LF bandwagon next year. He's got the athleticism. He's probably a better baserunner than Pods too, although my grandmother is at this point.

 

The only thing that concerns me about Josh is (besides the K's) his exorbitant BABIP. I believe it's still over .400, even if a lot of that is just becuase he hits the ball damn hard.

 

BABIP 418

Home BABIP .471

 

That is an UNREAL home average.

If the guy is terrible defensively at 3B, what makes you think he'd be good as an outfielder? Has he played out there at all?

[Felix]

I thought I read that it was Freddy.

If it were Freddy, the deal likely would have been done. Everything I read (as far as I can remember) said it was Mark though.

[Balta1701]

If the guy is terrible defensively at 3B, what makes you think he'd be good as an outfielder? Has he played out there at all?

No he hasn't. But he does have the makeup to learn the spot...strong throwing arm, decent speed.

[Jordan4life_2007]

Does anybody know if Brady Clark was even available? Or have any idea what the Brewers asking price was?

[Dick Allen]

Gonna add something stupid that I will get beat up for....

 

Last offseason when everyone got all excited about picking up Jim Thome, I thought, "Wasn't Lyle Overbay available?" Thome kicked ass early in the season but from July on he has been frustrating to watch. He also can not play any position other than DH. What's my point?

 

Toronto got Overbay for a song. Look at his numbers right now (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/stats?playerId=4598). He is not a monster like Thome, but his strikout totals are far fewer. He is also way cheaper and would not have cost us the players we gave up to get Thome, particularly Mr. Rowand. I have heard how poor a hitter Rowand was and how he misjudged fly balls sometimes. But if you could have kept Rowand in center, had Overbay and Konerko to share first base and DH duties, thus eliminating the need for Ross Gload and then either had Brian Anderson available to be the 4th outfielder or had the extra money for a quality reserve outfielder, would you do it? Many will say no. Just remember, Kenny's success is usually when he does not go for the big name trade. Last year's success was built on the backs of guys like Iguchi, Dye, Contreras, and Pierzynski. Without those guys this year would be a disaster, too. I wish Kenny would look at the champions of the past and see that too many slugging superstars does not equate to a title. It worked in Boston but their lineup was still far more balanced that what the White Sox have now. Rather than pushing Sox toward more versatility iwth extra speed and defense, he took a big gamble that the addition of Thome would make up for the loss of Rowand and the risk of a rookie center fielder.

 

His OPS has been over 1.000 every month except June when it was in the high .800s. If you read this board, you would think he's in a slump but his OPS this month is OVER 1.400. He's hitting .300 has an OBP of .420 and is still on pace to hit around 50 homers which would be a White Sox team record. How in the hell can anyone not be estatic with Jim Thome's performance this season? Frankly, if he keeps it up, it will be one of the greatest offensive performances in team history. If Jim Thome is a problem, the White Sox should have about 5 total losses this year.

[Pants Rowland]

I understand your arguments, but frankly, all things considered, I think you're wrong here. Toronto is paying less for Overbay this year than we are paying for Thome, correct. Toronto is paying $2.5 million for Overbay this year. However, this was, IIRC, his first arbitration year. Next year, that number is probably going to double, to the $4-$5 million level. Which means, given the amount of Cash the White Sox got from the Phillies, he will only be a couple million cheaper than what we have Thome for ($14 million a season for 3 years, with the phillies chipping in over $20 million, IIRC). The difference in production between the two, IMO, is clearly worth an extra $7-8 million over 3 years. There's also the value of having a gigantic, SCARY bat in your lineup, the kind of guy that teams have to game plan around, which is also not shown in the stats.

 

It is also worth noting that in that scenario, we'd also still be paying for Rowand, which this year, would eat up another $3.2 million of the difference, and I think more next year. So in other words, you'd be paying basically teh same amount for Overbay and Rowand that you are for Thome and Anderson.

 

And sadly, ARow's offensive stats are still nothing to write home about either this year. .258 BA, 12 home runs, actually a little worse than he was last year in BA, little better in power.

 

Thanks. I forgot that Philly picked up a good chunk of Thome's contract.

 

I think Thome's overall numbers are going to be more impressive than Overbay at the end of the season. However, I have watched Overbay in the past and seen how he has improved each year. His power numbers are decent. He plays a pretty good first base. He is also left handed but makes contact more consistently than Thome. To me he seems more of a pure hitter than big Jim. He also seems to spread his productivity out very nicely over the course of the season. Without going overboard, he has impressed me in the past and from what I have seen in limited games against the Sox, has done very well in his first AL season.

 

Let's throw out Thome versus Overbay comparisons, though. My bigger point was not whether one was better than the other. I was thinking more about residuals and team balance. Thome's presence improves the lineup from 2 through 7 considerably. He is also a great character guy to have in the clubhouse. Finally, individually he is a monster at the plate. On the down side, his presence in the lineup has thrown the balance way off at the bottom of the order. Anderson's inexperience has not only hurt his spot in the lineup, but it probably has also taken it's toll on the quality pitches seen by Uribe and Podsednik. Further, too many boppers in a White Sox lineup has turned the bottom half of the order into a bunch of spectators and mimics. They are either waiting for the big guys to knock one to the concourse, or are trying to join the party and swinging for the fences themselves.

 

Now, if you have an Overbay, you trade a fair amount in slugging percentage (versus Thome) for more singles and doubles. However, he is still lefthanded and you also add versatility by having a guy that can play first base to give Paulie a bit of a rest. Meanwhile, I do not know about Overbay's character but Rowand's is unquestioned. You keep the three stooges together and let them take Anderson under their wing. Chemistry may be overrated, but Rowand personified the 2005 White Sox in many ways, even if he was not a superstar. Finally, by keeping Rowand and picking up Overbay, you can free up a valuable roster spot as Ross Glaod is no longer needed. You can still acquire Mackowiak and Cintron but then find a speedy defensive replacement outfielder that is a little more reliable for a pinch hit situation than Willie Harris was in 2005. So effectively, you trade Gload for Overbay rather than Rowand for Thome and may never have to use Ozuna in LF. You also probably do not have to give up nearly as much talent on the prospect side. In return you have a more versatile team with less offensive pop but a lot more balance and far better outfield defense.

 

Despite his shortcomings, I would still take Rowand's offensive numbers over Anderson, especially considering BA's strikeout totals. I also like the idea of BA being a late inning replacement for Podsednik. Guillen may frustrate us with his decisions sometimes but he has had a knack in the past for setting guys up to succeed. He has not had that luxury with Anderson this year. As a result, not only has the bottom of the order been brutal but so has the defense at times. A late inning rally when the Sox are down a run or two results in a Mackowiak pinch hit situation rather than taking your chances with Rowand had he not been traded. Now, Mack may or may not get the hit and then you are stuck with him in center field for 2 or 3 innings. Meanwhile, any time your outfield needs a rest you have Mackowiak in center or Ozuna in left rather than Anderson being the backup. The result has been a lot of balls finding holes rather than Rowand's or Anderson's glove. If you have a Brian Anderson available, you would have a very solid late-inning outfield defense with BA in left, A-Row in center and JD in right. That is solid from both a range/read standpoint but also improves the White Sox chances at throwing a runner out at home every once in a while. I can not remember one outfield assist this year.

 

I know the ultimate argument will be that the 2006 White Sox are struggling because their pitching has been inconsistent to poor. I agree with that to a point. However, good pitching is very much bolstered by good defense. That is not just measurable in routine plays but also highlights. If errors give a team 4 outs an inning, then highlight plays give them 2 outs. That eases stress on the pitching staff and frustrates the opponent to the point of pressing.

 

That ends my argument of how Lyle Overbay could have saved the Sox this season. If only KW had called me.

[Dick Allen]

Thanks. I forgot that Philly picked up a good chunk of Thome's contract.

 

I think Thome's overall numbers are going to be more impressive than Overbay at the end of the season. However, I have watched Overbay in the past and seen how he has improved each year. His power numbers are decent. He plays a pretty good first base. He is also left handed but makes contact more consistently than Thome. To me he seems more of a pure hitter than big Jim. He also seems to spread his productivity out very nicely over the course of the season. Without going overboard, he has impressed me in the past and from what I have seen in limited games against the Sox, has done very well in his first AL season.

 

Let's throw out Thome versus Overbay comparisons, though. My bigger point was not whether one was better than the other. I was thinking more about residuals and team balance. Thome's presence improves the lineup from 2 through 7 considerably. He is also a great character guy to have in the clubhouse. Finally, individually he is a monster at the plate. On the down side, his presence in the lineup has thrown the balance way off at the bottom of the order. Anderson's inexperience has not only hurt his spot in the lineup, but it probably has also taken it's toll on the quality pitches seen by Uribe and Podsednik. Further, too many boppers in a White Sox lineup has turned the bottom half of the order into a bunch of spectators and mimics. They are either waiting for the big guys to knock one to the concourse, or are trying to join the party and swinging for the fences themselves.

 

Now, if you have an Overbay, you trade a fair amount in slugging percentage (versus Thome) for more singles and doubles. However, he is still lefthanded and you also add versatility by having a guy that can play first base to give Paulie a bit of a rest. Meanwhile, I do not know about Overbay's character but Rowand's is unquestioned. You keep the three stooges together and let them take Anderson under their wing. Chemistry may be overrated, but Rowand personified the 2005 White Sox in many ways, even if he was not a superstar. Finally, by keeping Rowand and picking up Overbay, you can free up a valuable roster spot as Ross Glaod is no longer needed. You can still acquire Mackowiak and Cintron but then find a speedy defensive replacement outfielder that is a little more reliable for a pinch hit situation than Willie Harris was in 2005. So effectively, you trade Gload for Overbay rather than Rowand for Thome and may never have to use Ozuna in LF. You also probably do not have to give up nearly as much talent on the prospect side. In return you have a more versatile team with less offensive pop but a lot more balance and far better outfield defense.

 

Despite his shortcomings, I would still take Rowand's offensive numbers over Anderson, especially considering BA's strikeout totals. I also like the idea of BA being a late inning replacement for Podsednik. Guillen may frustrate us with his decisions sometimes but he has had a knack in the past for setting guys up to succeed. He has not had that luxury with Anderson this year. As a result, not only has the bottom of the order been brutal but so has the defense at times. A late inning rally when the Sox are down a run or two results in a Mackowiak pinch hit situation rather than taking your chances with Rowand had he not been traded. Now, Mack may or may not get the hit and then you are stuck with him in center field for 2 or 3 innings. Meanwhile, any time your outfield needs a rest you have Mackowiak in center or Ozuna in left rather than Anderson being the backup. The result has been a lot of balls finding holes rather than Rowand's or Anderson's glove. If you have a Brian Anderson available, you would have a very solid late-inning outfield defense with BA in left, A-Row in center and JD in right. That is solid from both a range/read standpoint but also improves the White Sox chances at throwing a runner out at home every once in a while. I can not remember one outfield assist this year.

 

I know the ultimate argument will be that the 2006 White Sox are struggling because their pitching has been inconsistent to poor. I agree with that to a point. However, good pitching is very much bolstered by good defense. That is not just measurable in routine plays but also highlights. If errors give a team 4 outs an inning, then highlight plays give them 2 outs. That eases stress on the pitching staff and frustrates the opponent to the point of pressing.

 

That ends my argument of how Lyle Overbay could have saved the Sox this season. If only KW had called me.

 

While the defense has been poorer this year than last, Rowand is not an upgrade defensively from Anderson, and Overbay would not play first base enough to make a difference. You don't improve the defense with acquiring Overbay and retaining Rowand, in fact it even goes down a bit. Offensively, maybe at the bottom of your order you get a little improvement, but not enough to offset the huge loss of not having Thome in the lineup. Thome obviously has more homers than Overbay. In fact he has more than Overbay and Rowand combined. He also gets on base a ton more than either do. Thome's contribution to the White Sox can also be seen in Jermaine Dye's numbers, and maybe even Crede's and AJs. He alone changed this team from a very average offensive team with power, to a powerhouse line-up, and perhaps the best offense in baseball even when they have a CF who hasn't hit sour apples, and a lead-off man that has looked lost for a good portion of the season.

[The Ginger Kid]

Regarding the offense, a lot of blame gets heaped on Pods and I'm not disputing that he deserves a fair share of the blame, especially considering that he bats leadoff.

 

But don't overlook the absolutely s*** seasons of Juan Uribe and Brian Anderson at the plate, particularly Brian. I don't want to hear about his average for the last 30 days or whatever; when all is said and done he'll end up barely hitting over .200 for the season, virtually an automatic out. Worse, those outs were rarely productive when they needed to be. I still think he's a great bet for the future; I also think the decision to bring him to the bigs this season was a serious mistake.

[Milkman delivers]

Regarding the offense, a lot of blame gets heaped on Pods and I'm not disputing that he deserves a fair share of the blame, especially considering that he bats leadoff.

 

But don't overlook the absolutely s*** seasons of Juan Uribe and Brian Anderson at the plate, particularly Brian. I don't want to hear about his average for the last 30 days or whatever; when all is said and done he'll end up barely hitting over .200 for the season, virtually an automatic out. Worse, those outs were rarely productive when they needed to be. I still think he's a great bet for the future; I also think the decision to bring him to the bigs this season was a serious mistake.

 

Uribe and Anderson also play great defense. Pods' defense can't even be considered bad.

[BigSqwert]

But don't overlook the absolutely s*** seasons of Juan Uribe and Brian Anderson at the plate, particularly Brian. I don't want to hear about his average for the last 30 days or whatever; when all is said and done he'll end up barely hitting over .200 for the season, virtually an automatic out. Worse, those outs were rarely productive when they needed to be. I still think he's a great bet for the future; I also think the decision to bring him to the bigs this season was a serious mistake.

His away splits are atrocious.

 

1 HR and 7 RBIs

 

AVG/OBP/OPS

204/292/588

[Heads22]

If the guy is terrible defensively at 3B, what makes you think he'd be good as an outfielder? Has he played out there at all?

 

 

First of all, he's not "terrible". He committs errors, but if he's anything like he was on BHam, well, according to BHam, it's that he's pushing too hard and that he rushes things.

 

I think a lot of people think he can handle the switch a la C-Lee.

[The Ginger Kid]

Uribe and Anderson also play great defense. Pods' defense can't even be considered bad.

Like I said, I was talking about the offensive production of Pods, or lack of it. I don't think Brian's in CF just because he's a good (definitely not great) CF. I don't think we have any other options. They wouldn't run Mack out there if we did.