Who, in your opinion is...

[witesoxfan]

Yes I said it, and it's due to BP and over stat rags creating stats like EqA and using BABIP as an excuse for his crappy average.

 

I saw him play in cincy, and he was terrible. The fans were (suprisingly) all over him (kind suprised because their scoreboard shows OBP and SLG%.)

 

One poster here called him one of the top ten "hitters" of the game. The fact that someone would make that claim makes him very overrated. He'd rather try to get a walk than knock in a run. You don't have to swing for the f***ing river every time you're at the plate.

 

Anyone claiming Dunn's a top 10 hitter, in the truest sense of the word, isn't even close...he's a below average hitter. In the sense that by hitter they mean good offensively, then they are not wrong. He's Bonds without the average and 3rd person dialect. I think he strikes out a little more than Bonds too.

[whitesoxfan101]

Yes I said it, and it's due to BP and over stat rags creating stats like EqA and using BABIP as an excuse for his crappy average.

 

I saw him play in cincy, and he was terrible. The fans were (suprisingly) all over him (kind suprised because their scoreboard shows OBP and SLG%.)

 

One poster here called him one of the top ten "hitters" of the game. The fact that someone would make that claim makes him very overrated. He'd rather try to get a walk than knock in a run. You don't have to swing for the f***ing river every time you're at the plate.

 

He can't defend, but if your going to diss Adam Dunn at the plate, you really don't watch baseball. We played Dunn when he was playing his worst ball of the year, and now he's great in every offensive category except average (and .260 isn't too terrible).

[Rowand44]

He can't defend, but if your going to diss Adam Dunn at the plate, you really don't watch baseball. We played Dunn when he was playing his worst ball of the year, and now he's great in every offensive category except average (and .260 isn't too terrible).

This is kind of ironic to me and I'll let you guys figure out why.

[whitesoxfan101]

This is kind of ironic to me and I'll let you guys figure out why.

 

Hmm, I'm not sure. I'm sure I said something though, or maybe it's because he's a BP type player?? I dunno, but Dunn is a monster at the plate and constantly on base. At the plate, he's Thome without the average.

[santo=dorf]

QUOTE(whitesoxfan101 @ Aug 13, 2006 -> 01:16 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

He can't defend, but if your going to diss Adam Dunn at the plate, you really don't watch baseball. We played Dunn when he was playing his worst ball of the year, and now he's great in every offensive category except average (and .260 isn't too terrible).

Get a clue. Anyone who thinks I said Dunn is overrated based on his numbers this year really doesn't read message boards.

[Yoda]

Overrated

 

Player: David Ortiz

 

Manager: both chi-town managers get a lot of time on the national spotlight

 

GM: Brian Cashman

 

 

 

 

Underrated

 

Player: Jermaine Dye

 

Manager: Joe Girardi

 

GM: Kenny Williams

[Chisoxfn]

Calling Jeter overrated is ignorant.

 

He has 4 rings and he's posted consistently solid numbers throughout his career. I'd say a .316 career batting average is awfully good. His OPS for his career is also in the mid .800's which for a SS is respectable.

 

How is he overrated?

I completely agree. Jeter does all the little things and is a heck of an all around ball player. I realize its the sexy thing to hate on him, but all you got to do is watch the guy play game in and game out and you see why he has all those rings and why people in New York absolutely love him.

 

Overated Player: Vlad Guerrero (gets more hype than he deserves)

Manager: Ozzie Guillen

GM: Billy Beane (this is so easy for me)

 

Underrated Player: Joe Mauer, this guy is ridiuclously good

Manager: Bobby Cox (this guy does an amazing job year in year out and never gets any love; he has failed to win the big games though)

GM: Terry Ryan (great organization)

 

Dunn must get a lot more press than I am aware of, because I have no idea how he could be considered one of the most overrated players in the game. After this year he will have his third 40/100 season at the age of 26 and the only s*** I ever hear about him is from the host on Sportscenter, making some lame joke about how his latest home run hasn't landed yet.

To stat lovers he is by far the most overrated player in the game, imo. Since they all gush about how he is insanely good because of his OPS, when in fact he is not.

 

I'm with Boz on Jeter. Jeter is like the Kobe Bryant of MLB (although Kobe himself is a big reason he's so hated). Its just become hip and cool to hate on Jeter for some reason. The guy has the most hits in all of baseball since 1996. Yes. 1996. He consistently hits anywhere from as low as .295 to as high as .346 this season EVERY year. OBP is always good. He has decent pop for the position he plays. He's one of the best in baseball when it comes to fighting off tough pitches and making pitchers work. Playoffs? Do I even have to talk about what this guy does in October? Now, yes, his defense is overrated. He wouldn't sniff a GG if he played anywhere else but NY. But c'mon, the guy has made some pretty amazing plays in the field over the years. The play he made against Oakland in game 3 of the LDS in 2001 is legendary. If Jeter is overrated, then overrated is really, really good in this case.

 

I'm in the same boat as you. It's a joke that a lot of people think he's the MVP. Ever hear of Albert Pujols and Ryan Howard? When Jeter retires he will pass the torch to wright. God I hate New York.

What the hell do two guys in the NL have to do with Jeter being an MVP candidate. The guy is the leader of a Yankees team that is totally over-achieving. Ya, he deserves to be in MVP talk. He won't win it but if the best MVP got it, we'd be talking about JD at this point.

 

A couple months ago, anyone would've taken Miguel Cabrera over any young player in baseball. Now after enough fluffing from ESPN, Wright is better than Cabrera?

Wright is a better all around ball player than Cabrera. Cabrera may be the better hitter though, but I don't care what the stats say, Wright is superior defensively at 3rd.

[GoodAsGould]

I like Jeter but people rip on A-Rod for making 25 million and Jeter makes what 21 or something and he isnt close to the player A-Rod is. Not 2 mention if he was a real "captain" he would of made the switch to 3B to let the best fielding SS on the team play the position. Id take Jeter over any other SS in the league besides possibly Michael Young, Tejeda, and A-Rod.

[witesoxfan]

Overrated...

 

Player: Torii Hunter. Not a doubt in my mind. I've mentioned on here like friggin 100 times about how bad he is offensively, and even though he is still amazing defensively, he's a bit softer now a days and definately gets injured a bit more.

 

Manager: Bruce Bochy. Not necessarily media wise, but for a guy that's been in San Diego for like 10+ years, he hasn't brought them much other than a playoff birth or two and a World Series appearance where they got swept. His team this year has quite a bit of talent, and they are a mediocre ballclub.

 

GM: Theo Epstein. He's got a $150 million payroll, yet his rotation is mediocre, his bullpen is a little above average, and his offense is built entirely around two hitters. Without Manny or Ortiz, the Red Sox offense is nothing.

 

Underrated...

 

Player: Justin Morneau. If Jim can give lovin to Rally Crede, I'll give lovin to the Canuck. Best 1Bman in the AL.

 

Manager: Joe Torre. I don't know understand how people can say he's overrated at all. For 12 straight years(assuming they make it this year), the Yankees will have been in the playoffs. I don't care that the Yankees have a $200 million payroll...Torre doesn't control that at all. I don't care that they have talent up the arse...he doesn't control that either. However, the man's job almost never seems to be safe, as rumors fly about his job security. He also has more egos in his clubhouse than a celebrity golf tournament, yet he keeps everyone in check and keeps everyone happy and producing. He can keep his team playing well through injuries and through the media storm that is New York. He seems to know when to take a pitcher out, when to leave him in, who to call in from the bullpen, who to have pinch hit, when to steal, and when to let Mo get a 2 inning save. In my mind, he's the best manager in the AL, and top 2 in the majors(no idea who I'd say is better between he and Cox).

 

GM: Billy Beane. Big time supporter, obviously, but I don't understand why people think he's overrated. He isn't the god the media sometimes makes him out to be, but he is a top 3-5 GM int he game. Hell, a book was written about him and his philosophy on how to build a team, everyone read it, and yet he is still always one step ahead of the entire baseball world, and has his team loaded with talent and competing with a $45 million payroll(or so). That's just awesome.

Edited August 13, 2006 by witesoxfan

[Chisoxfn]

This is kind of ironic to me and I'll let you guys figure out why.

Its cause if you watch baseball and ignore the ludicrious OPS stat (which I Think is a good stat by the way, but not an end all be all) you'd realize he's a pretty one dimensional player and is ridiuclously overhyped by any statitician.

[fullcollapse]

for underrated player i was going to say webb, but then capuano's name got thrown out so i compared their stats. it looks like webb had the edge in most everything except K (which is close) and the sb against. the thing i love most about webb though is his gb/fb ratio.

[WhiteSoxfan1986]

Overrated...

 

Player: Torii Hunter. Not a doubt in my mind. I've mentioned on here like friggin 100 times about how bad he is offensively, and even though he is still amazing defensively, he's a bit softer now a days and definately gets injured a bit more.

 

Manager: Bruce Bochy. Not necessarily media wise, but for a guy that's been in San Diego for like 10+ years, he hasn't brought them much other than a playoff birth or two and a World Series appearance where they got swept. His team this year has quite a bit of talent, and they are a mediocre ballclub.

 

GM: Theo Epstein. He's got a $150 million payroll, yet his rotation is mediocre, his bullpen is a little above average, and his offense is built entirely around two hitters. Without Manny or Ortiz, the Red Sox offense is nothing.

 

Underrated...

 

Player: Justin Morneau. If Jim can give lovin to Rally Crede, I'll give lovin to the Canuck. Best 1Bman in the AL.

 

Manager: Joe Torre. I don't know understand how people can say he's overrated at all. For 12 straight years(assuming they make it this year), the Yankees will have been in the playoffs. I don't care that the Yankees have a $200 million payroll...Torre doesn't control that at all. I don't care that they have talent up the arse...he doesn't control that either. However, the man's job almost never seems to be safe, as rumors fly about his job security. He also has more egos in his clubhouse than a celebrity golf tournament, yet he keeps everyone in check and keeps everyone happy and producing. He can keep his team playing well through injuries and through the media storm that is New York. He seems to know when to take a pitcher out, when to leave him in, who to call in from the bullpen, who to have pinch hit, when to steal, and when to let Mo get a 2 inning save. In my mind, he's the best manager in the AL, and top 2 in the majors(no idea who I'd say is better between he and Cox).

 

GM: Billy Beane. Big time supporter, obviously, but I don't understand why people think he's overrated. He isn't the god the media sometimes makes him out to be, but he is a top 3-5 GM int he game. Hell, a book was written about him and his philosophy on how to build a team, everyone read it, and yet he is still always one step ahead of the entire baseball world, and has his team loaded with talent and competing with a $45 million payroll(or so). That's just awesome.

 

Completely agree with you on Morneau. He would be my pick for MVP this year, unfortunately Ortiz will get it. Torre is a good manager, but it's ridiculous to say he's underrated.

[GoodAsGould]

for underrated player i was going to say webb, but then capuano's name got thrown out so i compared their stats. it looks like webb had the edge in most everything except K (which is close) and the sb against. the thing i love most about webb though is his gb/fb ratio.

 

Webb has better stats but that doesnt mean he is under-rated since I think at least he gets his fair share of pub. If RJ/Schilling never left than he probably be looked over but he is pretty well recognized.

[rangercal]

Underrated...

 

 

Manager: Joe Torre. I don't know understand how people can say he's overrated at all. For 12 straight years(assuming they make it this year), the Yankees will have been in the playoffs. I don't care that the Yankees have a $200 million payroll...Torre doesn't control that at all. I don't care that they have talent up the arse...he doesn't control that either. However, the man's job almost never seems to be safe, as rumors fly about his job security. He also has more egos in his clubhouse than a celebrity golf tournament, yet he keeps everyone in check and keeps everyone happy and producing. He can keep his team playing well through injuries and through the media storm that is New York. He seems to know when to take a pitcher out, when to leave him in, who to call in from the bullpen, who to have pinch hit, when to steal, and when to let Mo get a 2 inning save. In my mind, he's the best manager in the AL, and top 2 in the majors(no idea who I'd say is better between he and Cox).

 

GM: Billy Beane. Big time supporter, obviously, but I don't understand why people think he's overrated. He isn't the god the media sometimes makes him out to be, but he is a top 3-5 GM int he game. Hell, a book was written about him and his philosophy on how to build a team, everyone read it, and yet he is still always one step ahead of the entire baseball world, and has his team loaded with talent and competing with a $45 million payroll(or so). That's just awesome.

Don't see how you can use the payroll argument in defense to how good Beane is for lacking one. But dismiss it when saying how good Torre is. Try again.

[mr_genius]

Overrated

Player: D. Lee - Cubs

Manager: Tony LaRussa - Cardinals

GM: Theo Epstein-Red Sox

 

 

 

 

Underrated

Player: Ryan Howard - Phillies

Manager: Ron Gardenhire -Twins

GM: Terry Ryan -Twins

[witesoxfan]

Don't see how you can use the payroll argument in defense to how good Beane is for lacking one. But dismiss it when saying how good Torre is. Try again.

 

What's so hard to understand about Beane working wonders with a limited payroll, while Joe Torre has gotten the Yankees to the playoffs 11 straight years, with a very good shot at 12 this year, albeit with a huge payroll he has absolutely no control over?

 

Joe Torre doesn't control the Yankee payroll, nor does he control which players are brought in at what price. He undoubtedly has a very large say in who or what they bring in, but that's about it. The fact of the matter is he's taken the Yankees to the playoffs every year for a over decade, and only one other manager since mass expansion has done that. I don't care how much money you spend, if you are the manager of a team with as many egos and old pitchers as the Yankees, and you take your team to the playoffs 12 straight years, you are damn good, and I don't think he gets nearly the credit he deserves.

 

On the flip side, Beane doesn't control how large his payroll is, but he DOES, by and large, control how it is spent. Since like friggin everyone read or knows about Moneyball, people know Beane's "strategy" on the game...yet he keeps on winning and building talent. He gets anywhere from $45-55 million to spend on his team, but only about one other team in the majors has sustained any level of success with such small payroll, and Oakland's been better than Minnesota longer...Oakland's won 87 games or more in 7 straight seasons, whereas Minnesota was a 90-win team for 3 straight years, and on the ends of that streak were mid-80s win totals.

 

So, yes, I can dismiss the payroll for Torre but bring it up for Beane and say that they are both underrated.

[beautox]

Don't see how you can use the payroll argument in defense to how good Beane is for lacking one. But dismiss it when saying how good Torre is. Try again.

 

/agree Beane and moneyball FTL

[Drew]

Overrated Player: Robinson Cano, Yankees. Let's wait a few years before we start comparing him to Jackie Robinson. If he weren't a Yankee, he'd be talked about as much as Jose Lopez or Tadahito Iguchi.

 

Overrated Manager: Joe Torre, Yankees. Sure, he's made the playoffs every year for the past 12 years. But with near-unlimited financial resources and the cache to acquire virtually anyone, the Yankees have not taken the prize home since 2000, with upset losses in '01 and '03, with a historic LCS meltdown in 2004 and a one-and-out in '05. But it's about time someone took away the fat kid's extra helpings of birthday cake.

 

Overrated GM: Theo Epstein, Red Sox. What does $150M buy if it all you have to show for it is an unbalanced offense, a mediocre rotation and, Papelbon notwithstanding, an average bullpen?

 

Underrated Player: Joe Crede, White Sox. I think this one speaks for itself.

 

Underrated Manager: Ron Gardenhire, Twins. The man runs consistently good and competitive teams in a small-market franchise for years. His teams are always very well-coached, they play a very disciplined game and fight you hard.

 

Underrated GM: Undecided.

Edited August 14, 2006 by Drew

[rangercal]

What's so hard to understand about Beane working wonders with a limited payroll, while Joe Torre has gotten the Yankees to the playoffs 11 straight years, with a very good shot at 12 this year, albeit with a huge payroll he has absolutely no control over?

 

Joe Torre doesn't control the Yankee payroll, nor does he control which players are brought in at what price. He undoubtedly has a very large say in who or what they bring in, but that's about it. The fact of the matter is he's taken the Yankees to the playoffs every year for a over decade, and only one other manager since mass expansion has done that. I don't care how much money you spend, if you are the manager of a team with as many egos and old pitchers as the Yankees, and you take your team to the playoffs 12 straight years, you are damn good, and I don't think he gets nearly the credit he deserves.

 

On the flip side, Beane doesn't control how large his payroll is, but he DOES, by and large, control how it is spent. Since like friggin everyone read or knows about Moneyball, people know Beane's "strategy" on the game...yet he keeps on winning and building talent. He gets anywhere from $45-55 million to spend on his team, but only about one other team in the majors has sustained any level of success with such small payroll, and Oakland's been better than Minnesota longer...Oakland's won 87 games or more in 7 straight seasons, whereas Minnesota was a 90-win team for 3 straight years, and on the ends of that streak were mid-80s win totals.

 

So, yes, I can dismiss the payroll for Torre but bring it up for Beane and say that they are both underrated.

dismissing it would be the ignorant thing to do especially after you look at his pre-NYY WL records

 

Year League Team Age G W L WP Finish

+----+-----------+--------+---+-----+----+----+------+------+

1977 NL East NewYorkM 36 117 49 68 .419 6 Player/Manager

1978 NL East NewYorkM 37 162 66 96 .407 6

1979 NL East NewYorkM 38 163 63 99 .389 6

1980 NL East NewYorkM 39 162 67 95 .414 5

1981 NL East NewYorkM 40 52 17 34 .333 5 First half of season

1981 NL East NewYorkM 40 53 24 28 .462 4 Second half of season

 

1982 NL West Atlanta 41 162 89 73 .549 1

1983 NL West Atlanta 42 162 88 74 .543 2

1984 NL West Atlanta 43 162 80 82 .494 3

 

1990 NL East St.Louis 49 58 24 34 .414 6

1991 NL East St.Louis 50 162 84 78 .519 2

1992 NL East St.Louis 51 162 83 79 .512 3

1993 NL East St.Louis 52 162 87 75 .537 3

1994 NL Cent St.Louis 53 115 53 61 .465 3

1995 NL Cent St.Louis 54 47 20 27 .426 4

 

 

 

come on now. You praise Beane for working with a low payroll. But don't look at Joe Torre's HIGH payroll as a reason why he MAY be so successful?

How can Torre be considered underrated when

A) There are lots of people who claim him to be the best manager in the game

B) ESPN

C) His pre Yankee Days

D) YES his 200 million dollar payroll that he has to manage on the field.

Must be hard to make a lineup when you have

 

Johnny Damon 2 time allstar

Derek Jeter 7 time all star (yes he is still overrated)

Arod 9 time all star , 2 time MVP

Jason Giambi 5 time allstar 2000 mvp

Gary Sheffield 9 time all star

Jorge Posada 4 time All star

Hideki matsuii 2 time allstar in 3 seasons

Robinson Cano Phenom who just added an allstar berth under his belt.

 

 

If you lose a guy like matsuii and Sheffield, you just take on a contract like Abreu and keep on rollin.

Managers like Yost, Gardenhire and 95 % of the league don't have that luxury every year.

 

He has never had to deal with a closer situation in a decade thanks to having the best closer in the history of the game. (payroll has to do with that, because most teams would have lost him to Free agency. Not the yankees.)

All managers have to deal with the hard times in between closers. Ozzie had to with Koch and Shingo in his first 2 years! . Thats more than Torre Had to deal with Ever in pin stripes! Look at Baker with the dempster-Hawkins options he had over there. What would Torre have done to deal with those sitiuations in a better way than any other manager? He probably would be forced to deal with the situations the same way. Work with what you have. Then get f***ed in the ass when your pitcher blows a save.

 

I'd like you to name 10 managers in baseball who would not have had the same success with the same team Torre has had over the last 5 years.

Edited August 14, 2006 by rangercal

[rangercal]

I wonder If Cardinal fans would say Torre is overrated.

 

 

Cardinal W-L records since 91 (Torres first year with the cards)

 

Year League Record Finish Manager

2005 NL Cent 100-62 (.617) DIV 1 Tony LaRussa

2004 NL Cent 105-57 (.648) NL 1 Tony LaRussa

2003 NL Cent 85-77 (.525) 3 Tony LaRussa

2002 NL Cent 97-65 (.599) DIV 1 Tony LaRussa

2001 NL Cent 93-69 (.574) WC 2 Tony LaRussa

2000 NL Cent 95-67 (.586) DIV 1 Tony LaRussa

1999 NL Cent 75-86 (.466) 4 Tony LaRussa

1998 NL Cent 83-79 (.512) 3 Tony LaRussa

1997 NL Cent 73-89 (.451) 4 Tony LaRussa

1996 NL Cent 88-74 (.543) DIV 1 Tony LaRussa

1995 NL Cent 62-81 (.434) 4 Joe Torre and Mike Jorgensen

1994 NL Cent 53-61 (.465) 3 Joe Torre

1993 NL East 87-75 (.537) 3 Joe Torre

1992 NL East 83-79 (.512) 3 Joe Torre

1991 NL East 84-78 (.519) 2 Joe Torre

[mmmmmbeeer]

Overrated player: Ervin Santana -- People speak like he's in the same class as Verlander, Weaver, Liriano, etc... He's not even close, imo...and I think that the #'s support that opinion

 

Overrated manager: Jim Leyland-- He is getting waaay too much credit for the Tigers' success this season.

 

Overrated GM: Sabean--SF sucks and appears to have no plan whatsoever

 

 

Underrated player: Ryan Howard -- His #'s are very close to Ortiz but Ryan's still a kid. All we hear about is how Ortiz is a given as MVP and how dominant a hitter he is. Howard is mentioned in MVP talk but is not given the praise for being as dominant as he is.

 

Underrated manager: Definitely Girardi...he's turning boys into men down there all the while fighting with ownership.

 

Underrated GM: Dombrowski -- The performance of Detroit's rookies is, imo, the main reason for their success this season. I attribute their opportunity to succeed to Dombroski.

[witesoxfan]

I wonder If Cardinal fans would say Torre is overrated.

Cardinal W-L records since 91 (Torres first year with the cards)

 

Year League Record Finish Manager

2005 NL Cent 100-62 (.617) DIV 1 Tony LaRussa

2004 NL Cent 105-57 (.648) NL 1 Tony LaRussa

2003 NL Cent 85-77 (.525) 3 Tony LaRussa

2002 NL Cent 97-65 (.599) DIV 1 Tony LaRussa

2001 NL Cent 93-69 (.574) WC 2 Tony LaRussa

2000 NL Cent 95-67 (.586) DIV 1 Tony LaRussa

1999 NL Cent 75-86 (.466) 4 Tony LaRussa

1998 NL Cent 83-79 (.512) 3 Tony LaRussa

1997 NL Cent 73-89 (.451) 4 Tony LaRussa

1996 NL Cent 88-74 (.543) DIV 1 Tony LaRussa

1995 NL Cent 62-81 (.434) 4 Joe Torre and Mike Jorgensen

1994 NL Cent 53-61 (.465) 3 Joe Torre

1993 NL East 87-75 (.537) 3 Joe Torre

1992 NL East 83-79 (.512) 3 Joe Torre

1991 NL East 84-78 (.519) 2 Joe Torre

 

Name me one manager who could handle the heat of the New York media better than Joe Torre, managing today. That media has ruined CAREERS of players, and yet, even with an unfathomable payroll, still keeps his players cool and playing well

 

Cardinals fans won't agree, but they're probably a bit jealous of some rings that he owns that they didn't get, albeit with a much smaller payroll. Of course, he really hasn't won a World Series since Steinbrenner started going crazy...they always led the majors in payroll, but I don't think they broke $100 million until like 2000 or 2001. Not a reason as to why he's still underrated to this day, but it's true.

 

Regardless, I believe we accomplished the goal of this thread, and you showed me up pretty well. I still think Torre's a bit underrated, but I'll name you two more, though both have been mentioned(I think just once though). They're not the most underrated, but I'll throw them out there for the hell of it...Clint Hurdle and Ozzie Guillen