Javier Vazquez

[VAfan]

Here are Javy's starts this year. After the XX, I list the number of runs (earned or not) given up up through the 5th inning, followed by the number of runs given up until he was taken out of the ballgame. I will also indicate whether we would have been ahead or behind if he was pulled after 5 versus what the situation was when he was pulled, and the final outcome of the game. Bold indicates the games where pulling Vazquez could have made the difference.

 

DATE GAME W L ERA IP H R ER HR BB SO NP-S

APR 08 @KC 0 0 2.57 7.0 5 2 2 0 1 7 98-65 XX 0/2/1 run lead v. 1 run deficit, Sox lost 4-3

 

APR 14 TOR 0 1 6.23 6.0 9 7 7 1 1 4 102-67 XX 7(5 run 5th)/0/no difference, Sox lost 13-7. (5-2 lead was given up in the 5th.)

 

APR 19 KC 1 0 3.86 8.0 2 0 0 0 1 7 108-76 XX 0/0/no difference, Sox won 4-0

 

APR 25 @SEA 1 0 3.67 6.0 4 2 2 0 2 2 109-74 XX 0/2/no difference, Sox won 13-3

 

MAY 01 @CLE 1 0 3.00 6.0 6 1 0 0 3 7 100-63 XX 0/1/no difference, Sox won 8-6

 

MAY 06 KC 1 0 2.88 7.2 4 2 2 0 0 6 116-84 XX 0/2/no difference, Sox won 9-2

 

MAY 13 @MIN 0 1 3.88 5.2 10 7 7 1 0 2 86-60 XX 5(5 run 5th)/7/1 run deficit v. 3 run deficit, Sox lost 8-4

 

MAY 18 @TB 0 1 4.22 7.0 8 5 5 2 1 4 108-67 XX 2/5/1 run lead v. 2 run deficit, Sox lost 5-4

 

MAY 23 OAK 1 0 4.25 6.0 6 3 3 1 4 3 109-64 XX 3/0/no difference, Sox won 9-3

 

MAY 29 @CLE 1 0 3.86 6.0 2 0 0 0 3 4 106-63 XX 0/0/no difference, Sox won 11-0

 

JUN 03 TEX 1 0 4.14 6.1 11 5 5 0 1 7 115-77 XX 5(3 run 5th)/0/no difference, Sox won 8-6

 

JUN 09 CLE 0 0 4.19 5.2 7 3 3 0 1 9 110-68 XX 1/4/1 run lead v. 2 run deficit, Sox won 5-4

 

JUN 14 @TEX 0 1 4.54 6.0 10 6 6 2 2 7 99-70 XX 5/6/no difference, Sox lost 8-0

 

JUN 20 STL 1 0 4.43 6.0 7 2 2 0 2 3 97-60 XX 1/1/no difference, Sox won 20-6

 

JUN 25 HOU 0 0 5.00 6.0 10 9 9 2 2 3 95-61 XX 6(4 run 5th)/9, 5 run deficit v. 8 run deficit, Sox lost 10-9 in extra innings.

 

JUL 01 @CHC 0 0 5.15 6.0 11 5 5 1 1 7 108-68 XX 5(3 run 5th)/5/gave up 1 run lead in 5th, Sox won 8-6

 

JUL 06 BAL 1 0 5.15 5.1 5 5 3 0 1 2 95-57 XX 3/5/no difference, Sox won 11-8

 

JUL 19 @DET 0 1 5.20 6.0 7 5 5 1 1 5 95-63 XX 0/5/2 run lead v. 3 run deficit, Sox lost 5-2

 

JUL 24 MIN 0 1 5.31 6.0 8 5 5 2 1 4 91-56 XX 0/5/2 run lead v. 3 run deficit, Sox lost 7-4

 

JUL 30 @BAL 0 0 5.44 5.1 6 5 5 1 3 3 82-51 XX 2/5/2 run lead v. 1 run deficit, Sox lost 8-7

 

AUG 05 @TOR 1 0 5.18 8.0 2 1 1 1 2 13 109-76 XX 1/0/no difference, Sox won 7-1

 

AUG 10 NYY 1 0 5.13 5.0 6 2 2 1 6 8 111-67 XX 2/0(removed after 5), good move! Sox won 5-4.

 

AUG 15 KC ................................................ XX 2/2/tie game v. 2 run deficit, Sox lose 4-2

 

So there you have it. 23 starts. 11 games where pulling him early could have made a difference. Sox pulled two of the games out anyway, so that reduces the number to 9 games that could very well have been won if we made JV a 5-inning starter. We wouldn't have won them all, but it would have been nice to have won a few, including tonight's game.

 

Of course it sucks that Javier Vazquez, for the money we are paying him, can't pitch past the 5th inning most of the time, and in fact has been hit hard a few times in the 5th. But it also stinks that Ozzie Guillen can't see this pattern and, with a long man like Brandon McCarthy available, make the necessary adjustments to relieve JV before he turns victories into defeats. The ONLY time Ozzie removed JV after 5 innings was the last game against the Yanks. It was a GREAT MOVE, OZZIE. Too bad you didn't follow up on it tonight.

 

(I haven't calculated the ERA or W-L record had Javy been pulled in all these games, but suffice it to say he could have the most wins in the majors, with a pretty damn good ERA.)

[Whitewashed in '05]

Javy f***ing sucks. Plain and simple. Worse trade ever by KW.

[kwolf68]

Javy Javy....did we all get fooled by his game in Toronto? The guy is the epitome' of a mediocre pitcher....great one start, terrible the next.

 

Sorry folks, but YOU DONT WIN CHAMPIONSHIPS with people like this. Our other 4? Are starting to GET IT GOING...

 

Jose-brilliant early, injured, struggled, and now seems back as evidenced by his domination of Detroit

 

Garcia-No longer a power pitcher...has morphed into a finese guy and its working. Late in the game against NYY and Detroit he was outstanding

 

Garland-Horrid early in the season, but has sacked up and now just keeps on rolling, solid as a rock.

 

Buehrle-Been a slow rise, but encouraging signs...was abysmal for most of late June and all of July. Evidence suggest he is getting it back together.

 

Most importantly to me? I've seen Jose, Jon, Mark, and Freddy win us a world title...I believe, I trust they will figure things out and they seem to be, but this other guy????? No faith at all.

 

 

 

The homer Teahan hit was one of the worst thrown change-ups I've ever seen. Vazquez finds the right moment to totally puke himself.

[My Dixie Normus]

He is a fifth starter... expect crap. Just use the bullpen.

[DBAHO]

Including his start tonight that's 7 ER he's given up in 18.2IP now, so an ERA of around 3.50 for this month so far.

 

Tonight was a setback no doubt, but tonight he just didn't have his best stuff on the mound by all accounts. When he does, he has shown what he's capable of recently.

[whitesoxfan101]

Well the good news about Javy is that by getting him, we kept McCarthy out of the rotation, got rid of a decent bullpen arm in Vizcaino, and gave up Chris Young, who oh by the way will be a really good everyday outfielder one day. Not like we lost that trade or anything.

[DBAHO]

Well the good news about Javy is that by getting him, we kept McCarthy out of the rotation, got rid of a decent bullpen arm in Vizcaino, and gave up Chris Young, who oh by the way will be a really good everyday outfielder one day. Not like we lost that trade or anything.

The trade should really just be ruled incomplete until Chris Young shows he can play CF in the major leagues. And considering the D-Backs OF situation, will be interesting to see how they fit him in, or whether he's dealt for pitching possibly?

[kwolf68]

Well the good news about Javy is that by getting him, we kept McCarthy out of the rotation, got rid of a decent bullpen arm in Vizcaino, and gave up Chris Young, who oh by the way will be a really good everyday outfielder one day. Not like we lost that trade or anything.

 

 

My biggest complaint was the thing with McCarthy. Brandon McCarthy was INSTRUMENTAL in this team winning it all last year. Anyone remember his performance in Texas? In Boston? Those two starts were works of art...Javy has NEVER pitched as good as Brandon did in those two games.

 

I felt Brandon earned the right to go into the 5-spot...he earned it by slugging through in the 2nd half when El Duque' was going 0 and freaking 8....so we trade Duque...and then get this headcase for a boat load of talent while retarding the progress of a good young pitcher at the same time.

 

I honestly believe Vazquez is a major albatross around this staff's next. He has loser written all over him.

[santo=dorf]

QUOTE(whitesoxfan101 @ Aug 15, 2006 -> 10:16 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well the good news about Javy is that by getting him, we kept McCarthy out of the rotation, got rid of a decent bullpen arm in Vizcaino, and gave up Chris Young, who oh by the way will be a really good everyday outfielder one day. Not like we lost that trade or anything.

Anything else Miss Cleo?

Did you call him hurting his wrists in Spring Training too?

Vizcaino is pitching well in the NL.

Duque sucks, and isn't even with the D'Backs anymore.

 

 

 

QUOTE(kwolf68 @ Aug 15, 2006 -> 10:20 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

My biggest complaint was the thing with McCarthy. Brandon McCarthy was INSTRUMENTAL in this team winning it all last year. Anyone remember his performance in Texas? In Boston? Those two starts were works of art...Javy has NEVER pitched as good as Brandon did in those two games.

You clearly have never watch Vazquez before this year, or even look at his previous game logs or monthly splits.

Hell, what about his start against Toronto? Where were you?

 

Some of Javy's highlights.

Month of May 2005: 46 IP, 41 H, 0BB, (YES, no walks) 39 K's, 2.15 ERA

He lost a game 2-1 to the Cards despite going 9 innings, giving up 3 hits, 2 ER, and 8 K's (also no BB's)

Later that month he beat Atlanta going 8 IP,3 H, 2 ER, 2 BB, 11 K's

In September he beat the Dodgers going 8.2 IP, 4 H, 1 ER, 1 BB, 7 K's

The Next start he got a ND, but his team won, going 7 IP,2 H, 1 BB, 1 HR 3 ER (all three guys scored on the one hit.) 12 K's

In 2004 he shut down the Sox in his first start of the season going 8 IP, giving up 3 H and 1 BB

He came back later that Arpil and shut us down again.

Here are some more impressive outings:

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/boxscore?gameId=230409116

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/boxscore?gameId=230429108

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/boxscore?gameId=230605120

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/boxscore?gameId=230818120

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/boxscore?gameId=230828120

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/boxscore?gameId=230918121

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/boxscore?gameId=230923115

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/boxscore?gameId=220430118

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/boxscore?gameId=220515125

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/boxscore?gameId=220605120

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/boxscore?gameId=220915120

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/boxscore?gameId=220927120

Edited August 16, 2006 by santo=dorf

[whitesoxfan101]

Anything else Miss Cleo?

Did you call him hurting his wrists in Spring Training too?

Vizcaino is pitching well in the NL.

Duque sucks, and isn't even with the D'Backs anymore.

 

So your saying that was a good trade? Young could be horrible and never do anything, and this trade still hurts us. All I can say is we gave up easily our best position prospect, a decent bullpen arm, and kept our best pitching prospect out of the rotation where he belongs.....all to get a overpaid loser whose 6th inning meltdowns will be the reason we miss the playoffs if we do. Now I think we'll make the playoffs, and KW is still a great GM, but this trade still will go down as the worst KW has ever made.

[LosMediasBlancas]

He is a fifth starter... expect crap. Just use the bullpen.

 

 

b..b..but the money, all that the money.

[whitesoxfan101]

You clearly have never watch Vazquez before this year, or even look at his previous game logs or monthly splits.

 

Man, the way your posting tonight makes me think Hawk is in our midst. Anyways, I've seen him pitch, and what he has done this year is what he's been doing for several years now. He's a .500 pitcher that teases scouts with his great stuff and occasional good outings, but for the most part is a mediocre pitcher who doesn't trust his stuff and has the intestinal fortitude of a chicken.

[kwolf68]

You clearly have never watch Vazquez before this year, or even look at his previous game logs or monthly splits.

 

 

He is a career .500 pitcher and I've watched him this year...he sucks.

[DBAHO]

So your saying that was a good trade? Young could be horrible and never do anything, and this trade still hurts us. All I can say is we gave up easily our best position prospect, a decent bullpen arm, and kept our best pitching prospect out of the rotation where he belongs.....all to get a overpaid loser whose 6th inning meltdowns will be the reason we miss the playoffs if we do. Now I think we'll make the playoffs, and KW is still a great GM, but this trade still will go down as the worst KW has ever made.

So if we hang onto Vazquez and he rebounds next season (which I think he will, think of the Contreras situation all over again), we trade Garcia for some prospects (Cesar Carillo anyone?), and Young is a bust, is it still a bad trade?

 

It's just too early to judge still IMHO.

 

that teases scouts with his great stuff and occasional good outings, but for the most part is a mediocre pitcher who doesn't trust his stuff and has the intestinal fortitude of a chicken.

Doesn't this EXACTLY remind you of Contreras when we acquired him?

[kwolf68]

It's just too early to judge still IMHO.

Doesn't this EXACTLY remind you of Contreras when we acquired him?

 

 

NO. Contreras just nibbled too much and didn't trust his talent. Vazquez simply makes too many bad pitches when the pressure gets too great for him.

[South Side Fireworks Man]

That's why he's "Mr. Five and Dive".

[santo=dorf]

QUOTE(whitesoxfan101 @ Aug 15, 2006 -> 10:24 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

So you're saying that was a good trade? Young could be horrible and never do anything, and this trade still hurts us. All I can say is we gave up easily our best position prospect, a decent bullpen arm, and kept our best pitching prospect out of the rotation where he belongs.....all to get a overpaid loser whose 6th inning meltdowns will be the reason we miss the playoffs if we do. Now I think we'll make the playoffs, and KW is still a great GM, but this trade still will go down as the worst KW has ever made.

Miss Cleo, can't you read my mind? This trade isn't over with yet. What if Vazquez pitches great in the playoffs? Or the next two years we have him? Or what if we use him to land a guy like Tejada?

 

Here's the problem with your hypothetical situation:

Duque didn't want to be in the pen: If the Sox dump him just so he can be happy, they're going to lose out a lot on that $5.5 million salary Duque is making.

 

I defended Viz all of the second half last season but most Sox weren't having it after the Shingo slaughter, and the 3-run homer he gave up to the Cubs.

Here's the rotation:

Buehrle

Contreras

Garcia (started off like s***)

Garland (started off like s***)

Bmac (Miss Cleo, please tell me how he would've done, and compare it to Javy's start to the season.)

 

Pen:Politte (no way the Sox weren't bringing him back with that cheap option)

Cotts

Jenks

Vizcaino

Thornton

Logan with El Duque and salary shipped out

OR

a Whiny El Duque

 

I don't see that much of an improvement in our rotation, and our bullpen actually looks worse.

 

You guys do realize Vaz is under our control for at least the next two years (not quite sure it if a good thing or a bad thing) correct?

[santo=dorf]

QUOTE(kwolf68 @ Aug 15, 2006 -> 10:27 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

He is a career .500 pitcher and I've watched him this year...he sucks.

Thank you for proving my point.

 

Please explain how the 20 starts I used in my post don't compare to Brandon's two against Texas and Boston

Edited August 16, 2006 by santo=dorf

[SoxAce]

Great another Vazquez thread. Just keep 'em commin.

[whitesoxfan101]

Miss Cleo, can't you read my mind? This trade isn't over with yet. What if Vazquez pitches great in the playoffs? Or the next two years we have him? Or what if we use him to land a guy like Tejada?

 

Here's the problem with your hypothetical situation:

Duque didn't want to be in the pen: If the Sox dump him just so he can be happy, they're going to lose out a lot on that $5.5 million salary Duque is making.

 

I defended Viz all of the second half last season but most Sox weren't having it after the Shingo slaughter, and the 3-run homer he gave up to the Cubs.

Here's the rotation:

Buehrle

Contreras

Garcia (started off like s***)

Garland (started off like s***)

Bmac (Miss Cleo, please tell me how he would've done, and compare it to Javy's start to the season.)

 

Pen:Politte (no way the Sox weren't bringing him back with that cheap option)

Cotts

Jenks

Vizcaino

Thornton

Logan with El Duque and salary shipped out

OR

a Whiny El Duque

 

I don't see that much of an improvement in our rotation, and our bullpen actually looks worse.

 

You guys do realize Vaz is under our control for at least the next two years (not quite sure it if a good thing or a bad thing) correct?

 

To make a long story short, we didn't have to trade El Duque as part of a huge, not needed deal for Vasquez, McCarthy (although not a lock to be great) would have been without question better than Javy, who has been a joke, and Javy will have to pitch great out of the pen to make a playoff impact, since he wouldn't be in our playoff rotation (Count and Garland would be of course, Garcia is better and Ozzie's boy, and Buehrle is the lefty changeup with playoff experience and success).

 

And if you expect Javier Vasquez and his crappy history and crappier contract to get us anything resembling Miguel Tejada, then

 

It's just too early to judge still IMHO.

Doesn't this EXACTLY remind you of Contreras when we acquired him?

 

No. Vasquez has 200 career decisions (of which he's split), doesn't have the stuff Contreras does, and the situation just isn't the same at all. Contreras had a very simple issue, which was he didn't trust his stuff (especially his fastball), thus he fell behind in the count, and either threw hitable pitches and/or walked people. He had a history of amazing success in Cuba, and once he figured out to trust his stuff, and throw the fastball to get ahead before putting people away with the off speed stuff, he became the Bronze Titan. Javier Vasquez does not have nearly the past success to go on that Contreras did, has bad control (I know he doesn't walk a ton of guys, but his control within the strike zone kills him, too many hangers) and has shown for nearly his entire career that he's an inconsistent .500 pitcher who will tease you with his stuff, but simply can't take that next step that Jose has, especially in pressure situations.

Edited August 16, 2006 by whitesoxfan101

[greg775]

I respect you finding those stats, but I wouldn't say pulling him

after five innings would have been a good idea.

Like I for one said before I believe if you can't go seven innings

then you shouldn't be on the team.

A five inning starter? That's a joke.

I don't blame Oz. I blame Vaz. I know a lot blame Oz though.

Don't forget our bullpen hasn't exactly been stellar all the time,

either. It's not like we wouldn't have lost some of those games

anyway had Oz lifted him after 5.

We really need to play better against the s*** ass royals if we want(ed)

to win the division is the bottom line.

We can't let Detroit and Minnie handle them like Sigfriend and

Roy handled their Tigers back in the day before one decided to chow

down on Roy.

We deserve what we get if we have to settle for the wild card race IMO.

[TLAK]

As the senior Javy basher on this site, since December 20, 2005, I would like to point out that he pitched well enough to win last night. Runelvys was just a tad better. This game was decided by the White Sox defense not making plays while KC was making them. I give it to Javier when he deserves it, but not this time.

[elrockinMT]

Toronto was a teaser as far as just how good Javier Vazquez can be. It wasn't the only good game he has pitched. Earlier in the year he threw real good too and then fell into that 5 and out mode. The team goes on about his talent, etc, but we gave up the big game pitcher in Hernandez and took Vazquez, who is younger and has a load of talent. However, I remember Ozzie, Cooper and KW saying about others that the bigs isn't the place for players to learn the game or gain experience, etc. I think it is wrong to accept Vazquez can't make it past 5. I see him and Freddie Garcia as trade bait this winter.

[cmaff05]

Not to poor oil on a fire by any means, but you guys are aware that Javy Vasquez absolutely craps the bed in the playoffs also?

 

He was bad in the 2004 ALDS, and was horrendous in the 2004 ALCS against the Red Sox. If you guys get pissed of Javy giving up home runs at the absolute worst possible times during the regular season, just wait until he gets into the playoffs. He's no El Duque in the playoffs, that's for sure.

[sayitaintso]

So if we hang onto Vazquez and he rebounds next season (which I think he will, think of the Contreras situation all over again), we trade Garcia for some prospects (Cesar Carillo anyone?), and Young is a bust, is it still a bad trade?

 

It's just too early to judge still IMHO.

Doesn't this EXACTLY remind you of Contreras when we acquired him?

I would be all for getting Carillo for Freddy, if KW can pull it off that would be sweet.