The Ozzie Guillen Battleground Thread

[whitesoxfan101]

Ok, well for a while I thought I was the only person around here that was anti-Ozzie, but with the way the boards have turned lately, I thought this thread was indeed necessary to get thoughts out on Ozzie, good and bad (just like the offseason thread is necessary).

 

As a person who personally thinks Ozzie Guillen is an atrocious manager, here are just some general thoughts I have to get started.

 

1). Ozzie is almost Dusty Baker esque in his preference of veteran players to younger ones. Brian Anderson (a GREAT defender) is hitting .290 in the last 9 weeks, yet Mack has to play CF against all non pathetic righties (even though Brian hits righties BETTER than lefties). We all know the pathetic use and treatment of McCarthy, right down to "he's not bleeping Cy Young". Why is Pablo Ozuna on this team, other than he's a 30 something Latin that supposedly can run?? Why did we trade for Sandy Alomar when Chris Stewart is probably a better option at this point (Kenny wanted Sandy IS NOT an answer). Hell we could bring up Sweeney or even freaking Owens if we had to instead of Ozuna being here, at least we'd have adequate CF defense if Brian is out.

 

2). I DO NOT blame Ozzie for the starting pitching. Does he handle it like crap? Of course, BUT at the same time he has to try and get innings out of them, and it's obviously not his fault this staff has underachieved at this pace. This is the one area I'll defend him I suppose.

 

3). Handeling of the bullpen. I could go on ALL DAY about this, from the use of McCarthy, to bringing in pathetic Neal Cotts and subsequently ending all hopes on Friday, and then doing it AGAIN on Sunday, to bringing in Bobby Jenks in the 8th/middle of innings when he can't get people out in those spots, to the Sean Tracey incident, to not using a consistent set up role, even lately when he's had good set up guys like Eminem and Thornton. And that's just the stuff off the top of my head.

 

4). Inconsistent lineups. Yeah it was real cute last year since we won it all, but the fact that Ozzie can't ever consistently play a consistent lineup doesn't help the offense at all, it doesn't help the pitching since Lord Knows who is going to be behind them in the field, and it doesn't allow the players to get into any kind of rhythm. Imagine this offense (which leads the league in runs) if the lineup were actually consistent every day?? I know guys need rest sometimes, but the lineup alterations are ridiculous.

 

5). Rob Mackowiak in CF. Is he the only defensive option behind Anderson out there? Yeah probably, but he should not be out there ever unless it's once every 2 weeks plus to give Anderson a break. The overuse of Mack in CF other than days off for Anderson on rare occasion (especially since Anderson is now hitting, against all kinds of pitchers) has cost us at least 4 or 5 games this year, and at the end of the year may be the difference between making the playoffs and not making them.

 

6). The inablity of this team to play "small ball", bunt, hit the ball the other way, or show any sort of fundementals. The pulling the ball constantly thing could probably be blamed moreso on hitting coach Greg Walker, however at the same time, this team can't bunt, they are horrible fundementally, the small ball aspect of the game is non existent, and if we don't hit homers, we suck. I know the pitching covered it up last year, but other than Pods and Gooch in 2005, this team has been home run or nothing in 2004, 2005, and 2006. And I thought we'd never be like that with Ozzie, that's what I was told at the presser in which he was hired.

 

7.) Ozzie's preferential treatment of speed, and love of stolen bases. Obviously stolen bases and speed are part of the game, but Ozzie, this isn't 1977. Guys have to get on base in order to score runs, and it doesn't matter if they are fast or not. Plus, Ozzie.....Iguchi, Pods, and Ozuna ARE NOT FAST THIS YEAR, so stop stealing with them (and Dye and everybody else for that matter), because it's not worth the risk at the rate they get caught and with the ability this offense has. Stolen bases are overrated as is speed, you can either defend or you can't, you can either hit or you can't. Ozzie keeps playing Pods and Ozuna even though they can do nothing but run (and this year, neither of them are really even that fast, it's just the idea they can run that Ozzie loves. And neither can defend). Check the numbers, other than Pods last year even, the team didn't steal a whole lot of bases, and last year (unlike this) we NEEDED to manufacture runs since the offense sucked. This is a different team and different personnel.

 

8). They look dead. This is a more recent trened to be honest, and part of it is the starting pitching I'll admit. But look at this team recently, they don't even appear to give a damn out there. Ozzie, if nothing else, if firey and supposedly fires up the troops with his attitude, but it sure hasn't looked that way the last month plus. If Ozzie's team is playing like dogs, then what good is he? He's not a pitching staff specialist, a strategist, or anything else like that.

 

Ok, that's just the stuff I could of off the top of my head, but more will be coming as the days go along I'm sure. Ozzie defenders, the floor is yours and I only have 2 rules please: No use of the term "he won us a championship last year"!! or "Ozzieball". My dog could have managed us to a World Series title with that pitching staff, and we STILL almost choked it away (it being a 15 game lead) in September.

[fathom]

This is advice that I should follow more. As soon as the game is over tonight, leave this site for the rest of the night, and find something completely non-Sox related to do. No amount of complaining by us is going to chance anything right now.

[G&T]

This is advice that I should follow more. As soon as the game is over tonight, leave this site for the rest of the night, and find something completely non-Sox related to do. No amount of complaining by us is going to chance anything right now.

 

Well said, this might be a good night to study.

[SoxHawk1980]

The OP is 100% right. Ozzie has proven himself to be a poor manager in basically every aspect of the game. Can't motivate the team, makes horrible in-game decisions. It is hard to defend how bad he's been this year.

[Felix]

The OP is 100% right. Ozzie has proven himself to be a poor manager in basically every aspect of the game. Can't motivate the team, makes horrible in-game decisions. It is hard to defend how bad he's been this year.

I don't see how you can prove that.

[DBAHO]

Yeah I just think that people are looking for a scapegoat even though we're still well above .500, and in the lead for the Wild - Card. Is it Ozzie's fault our starters have dropped the ball this season?

[fathom]

I don't see how you can prove that.

 

You can't...you can only judge what you see on the field. People always bashed Manuel due to the lack of intensity the team had on the field. What we've seen lately is on par, if not worse, than the intensity levels that ended up getting Manuel fired.

[cgaudin]

The OP is 100% right. Ozzie has proven himself to be a poor manager in basically every aspect of the game. Can't motivate the team, makes horrible in-game decisions. It is hard to defend how bad he's been this year.

 

But he was "brilliant" last year? C'mon. Bottom line is starting pitching has not done the job. Subsequently, the pen has been overexposed, which leads to a snowball effect of pisspoor pitching performance.

 

Thome has been a great hitter this year. But I've said all year that he's not the right 3 hitter for this team. He is the primary reason why the offense is predicated solely on the long ball. He's also the strike out extraordinaire of this team. That is Guillen's fault for abandoning a key ingredient from last year's offense. It wasn't a power offense, but it was a PRESSURE offense. Team speed is atrocious, and the offense is nothing like what it was last year. Last year's team didn't score a lot of runs, but the offense was CONSISTENT in scoring a few runs. Like the top thread indicated, if not for the long ball, this team does not score runs. That alone has cost this team about 7 or 8 wins this season.

 

Ozzie's only flaw is that he puts too much stock on a player's history, as opposed to his current game rhythm. In other words, he thinks "He came through for us last year, he'll do it again" while ignoring that player's slumping tendencies. I hate the Yankees, but I love Joe Torre. He doesn't put up with garbage for too long. If a player ain't producing, they dig deep to find a replacement quickly, and he rides out players on a hot streak better than anyone in baseball.

[Zoogz]

Yeah I just think that people are looking for a scapegoat even though we're still well above .500, and in the lead for the Wild - Card. Is it Ozzie's fault our starters have dropped the ball this season?

 

As many may (or may not) have noticed, the Sox would qualify for the division lead in three of the other five divisions in baseball. As well, the Tigers, Sox, and Twins have combined for nearly a .600 winning percentage. And this on top of the fact that all three teams seem to be slumping at the same time.

 

Reading an article on Yahoo by Jeff Passan, I'm struck by the last two lines:

 

"There aren't going to be any knockout blows in this division, no apoplectic, season-swinging sweeps.

 

And, here in mid-August, no dead ballclubs. Or managers. "

 

link

 

For some reason, the Sox team that swept the Tigers barely ten days ago has only lost two games to the same Tigers. Between the obvious "well, it happens", you even had Dye saying that tomorrow is another day in the quotes from 21-Aug's postgame. And just because the result may be the same for two days does not indicate that it will be the same for the next twenty.

 

In all seriousness, Ozzie is giving his players a great chance to succeed. I can't fault him for anything, really, especially in the blazing light of hindsight. Players do sometimes not perform, and while it is regrettable laws of averages do dictate this. And I do really hope that the AL Central gets the wildcard, regardless of whom, to make sure that we won't be hearing about the AL East every freaking day of the playoffs.

 

Good luck Ozzie and the White Sox, and keep plugging away!

[Buehrle>Wood]

Just a question, is your sig a joke(I don't mean this in a sarcastic way, I really don't know)?

 

 

Why would James Andrews' job be on the line? Isn't he the surgeon for pretty much any professional sports franchise(And WWE)? What exactly is his fault/

[Harry&JimmyRocked]

If McCarthy and Anderson were latin players you bet bmac would be in the rotation and anderson would start everyday

[Felix]

If McCarthy and Anderson were latin players you bet bmac would be in the rotation and anderson would start everyday

BA has been starting a lot more recently (nearly every day), and since KW, not Ozzie, made the decision to trade for Vazquez (leaving BMac out of the rotation), I don't think that BMac's ethnicity has anything to do with it.

[fathom]

BA has been starting a lot more recently (nearly every day), and since KW, not Ozzie, made the decision to trade for Vazquez (leaving BMac out of the rotation), I don't think that BMac's ethnicity has anything to do with it.

 

Anderson is still getting way too many days off, all things considered.

[Felix]

Anderson is still getting way too many days off, all things considered.

I do agree (then again, I also agreed when he was hitting .170 )

[jackie hayes]

As one who usually doesn't defend Ozzie, I want to do just that on #3. I'm not at all happy about the stuff with Tracey. But Cotts has been very effective for us for a while. I don't think it's a question of 'seeing what he has' (which I hate), rather, really believing that he's gonna start showing again what we all know he has. As for Jenks in the 8th, the guy's gotta pitch like he does in the 9th. Why excuse a closer for being only a 'big inning pitcher', but get ticked at Freddy for being only a 'big game pitcher'?

[greg775]

I think Oz is great. Players win games, not managers.

 

I have a gut feeling the Oz haters are not going to have to worry about him much longer.

 

I think Mariotti will win his vendetta and Oz will leave the team after this season if not

before.

His columns blasting Oz, like today's where he indicates Oz again violated protocol by

playing the race card, will drive him from the team.

 

He'll come back and manage somewhere else where he's less passionate (the guy truly loves

the White Sox; even his critics must realize that) and he'll pull a LaRussa and manage a quiet 25 years

somewhere else.

Too bad, cause like Ditka, he's a great great personality and will forever be remembered fondly

for pushing all the right buttons last year.

Blaming the manager is so easy.

Mariotta thrives on it. Just like get ready for his constant columns on the Bears' QB situation

which will be coming up shortly.

It's easy to call for a new manager and for the second string QB to play. Mariotti sux.

Edited August 23, 2006 by greg775

[kapkomet]

If McCarthy and Anderson were latin players you bet bmac would be in the rotation and anderson would start everyday

Just stop it. That's not true, and if it is PROVE IT, if you can't, don't say it again.

[SoxHawk1980]

Just stop it. That's not true, and if it is PROVE IT, if you can't, don't say it again.

We state opinions on this board all the time. Opinions can't be proven. One can support them, but not prove them. They are not factual assertions. If we could only post on this forum things that we could prove, there were be about 12 posts.

[shoota]

I think Oz is great. Players win games, not managers.

 

I have a gut feeling the Oz haters are not going to have to worry about him much longer.

 

I think Mariotti will win his vendetta and Oz will leave the team after this season if not

before.

His columns blasting Oz, like today's where he indicates Oz again violated protocol by

playing the race card, will drive him from the team.

 

He'll come back and manage somewhere else where he's less passionate (the guy truly loves

the White Sox; even his critics must realize that) and he'll pull a LaRussa and manage a quiet 25 years

somewhere else.

Too bad, cause like Ditka, he's a great great personality and will forever be remembered fondly

for pushing all the right buttons last year.

Blaming the manager is so easy.

Mariotta thrives on it. Just like get ready for his constant columns on the Bears' QB situation

which will be coming up shortly.

It's easy to call for a new manager and for the second string QB to play. Mariotti sux.

 

 

True, but a manager needs to use his players in the best way to win as many games possible. The thorough first post of this thread cites many ways Ozzie doesn't do that. Thus, he's a poor manager.

[whitesoxfan101]

Just stop it. That's not true, and if it is PROVE IT, if you can't, don't say it again.

 

Let me say I agree with kap right here. If Ozzie only loves Latin players, then Mark Buehrle, Neal Cotts, Scott Podsednik, and Rob Mackowiak have some sort of extensive latino background i'm unaware of.

[greg775]

I don't see how you can call Ozzie a poor manager.

You'll get your wish soon enough. He'll be gone and like I said, be like

LaRussa and manage 25 years somewhere else.

And guess what ... you'll be on our new manager's ass also.

Because managers are hired to get fired.

[whitesoxfan101]

I don't see how you can call Ozzie a poor manager.

You'll get your wish soon enough. He'll be gone and like I said, be like

LaRussa and manage 25 years somewhere else.

And guess what ... you'll be on our new manager's ass also.

Because managers are hired to get fired.

 

Well you compared Ozzie to Ditka, thus proving my point he's not a good coach/manager/whatever. Ditka sucked too, those 80's Bears teams should have won 3 or 4 Super Bowls. Hell, the 1986 defense was better than the 1985 one and that team went 14-2 and had home field as well.

 

And don't get me started on Tony LaRussa....he's had some of the most talented rosters in the history of baseball and has ONE RING as a manager. He's worse than Ditka and Ozzie combined.

Edited August 23, 2006 by whitesoxfan101

[Jordan4life_2007]

I'm kinda torn on Ozzie at the moment. To me, the guy is a great manager overall. His record since he's been here speaks for itself. No matter who we're talking about, a manager is only as good as his players. I think Ozzie could do a little better job in some aspects. But make no mistake about it -- just about any manager wouldn't look as good when your entire rotation and key bullpen guys all have average to below average seasons all at the same time.

[whitesoxfan101]

I'm kinda torn on Ozzie at the moment. To me, the guy is a great manager overall. His record since he's been here speaks for itself. No matter who we're talking about, a manager is only as good as his players. I think Ozzie could do a little better job in some aspects. But make no mistake about it -- just about any manager wouldn't look as good when your entire rotation and key bullpen guys all have average to below average seasons all at the same time.

 

That is EXACTLY right, I mean there is a reason Joe Torre was an idiot in St. Louis and is an all time great in New York. Managers don't turn 65 win teams into 95 win teams, and vise versa. However, managers can (for better or worse) affect 5 to 8 games in each column when all is said and done at the end of a season, and I think it's painfully obvious that Ozzie costs us several more games than he wins us per year, looking at all the examples I presented in the first post.

[greg775]

OK, whitesoxfan, I'll play the game. Who is a good manager?

 

Piniella? I would agree but check his record. He is human, also.

Cox? Uh, the Braves have underachieved a lot in the postseason in his tenure.

Torre? I like him as well. The Yankees have not been lights out however with the highest

payroll in humanity.

It's OK to blast Oz. I don't care. I just am saying I personally think people will find a lot

of fault in our next manager and the manager after that.

 

I can't see Oz lasting here much longer. He loves the Sox too much and is too passionate.

He can't stand the criticism.

He'll be quiet the next 20 years managing the Cardinals or Braves or Blue Jays.