The Ozzie Guillen Battleground Thread

[southsider2k5]

I also wanted to throw this post out there about Gardenhire getting ejected for arguing balls and strikes...

 

http://www.soxtalk.com/forums/index.php?s=...t&p=1263852

 

Then I am also throwing out there the fact that he rested the leading hitter in MLB and his starting catcher the last day of the series against the Sox in which the Twins were trying to win the series to get within one game of the Sox, while a loss would have meant a 3 game deficit? How do you rest the leading hitter in baseball against a rival with the series and that pivotal of a game on the line?

[Dick Allen]

I also wanted to throw this post out there about Gardenhire getting ejected for arguing balls and strikes...

 

http://www.soxtalk.com/forums/index.php?s=...t&p=1263852

 

Then I am also throwing out there the fact that he rested the leading hitter in MLB and his starting catcher the last day of the series against the Sox in which the Twins were trying to win the series to get within one game of the Sox, while a loss would have meant a 3 game deficit? How do you rest the leading hitter in baseball against a rival with the series and that pivotal of a game on the line?

The back-up catcher is hitting .330 and bats 3rd in the line-up as well. Also he had the best pitcher in baseball on the mound. The big thing was, he won the game. My problem with some of Ozzie's decisions, like Mack in CF, is it comes back to haunt almost every game. There can't be one White Sox fan alive who has seen Mack play 5 games in CF that doesn't know its not a good idea for him to be out there. I also couldn't care less Ozzie gotten ejected 5 times this season. His ejection at Detroit was warranted. He was sticking up for his players. If he didn't go, a player would have eventually been tossed. My problem with Ozzie is the continuing battle he creates off the field with other team's players and coaches and managers. For the poster that wanted to know where Mariotti gets all the Ozzie quotes...he gets them the same way most of us do, through newpapers, radio and televison.

[southsider2k5]

The back-up catcher is hitting .330 and bats 3rd in the line-up as well. Also he had the best pitcher in baseball on the mound. The big thing was, he won the game. My problem with some of Ozzie's decisions, like Mack in CF, is it comes back to haunt almost every game. There can't be one White Sox fan alive who has seen Mack play 5 games in CF that doesn't know its not a good idea for him to be out there. I also couldn't care less Ozzie gotten ejected 5 times this season. His ejection at Detroit was warranted. He was sticking up for his players. If he didn't go, a player would have eventually been tossed. My problem with Ozzie is the continuing battle he creates off the field with other team's players and coaches and managers. For the poster that wanted to know where Mariotti gets all the Ozzie quotes...he gets them the same way most of us do, through newpapers, radio and televison.

 

The big thing there is you have the rear view mirror to look into now. Its easy to look back a situation and say they won/lost so it was a good/bad move. Mostly I just wanted to offer up some examples of some of the "great" managers that we hear about so often, of things that Ozzie often gets criticized for himself. When you watch a single team all of the time, and get something specific in your head, when you watch a 162 games you will be able to find tons of examples of it to support your opinion, pretty much no matter what it is. Hell I can't believe people are honestly saying things like we are better off without Jim Thome in the line up?!?!?

[fathom]

Just for arguement's sake...

 

-To start the 4th and final game of the series, with the final result either being ahead by 5.5 or 7.5 games, he leaves on the bench Ivan Rodriguez, Omar Infante, and Marcus Thames, while starting Neifi Perez.

 

-Also in the key 4th game Leyland does not take his starting pitcher out multiple different times in the middle innings when he could have theoretically stopped the bleeding and tried to give the offense a chance to get back in it. Instead Robertson goes 6.2 innings and gives up 10 earned runs.

 

-Casey finished the game at first base after being thrown out first by Pablo Ozuna from left field because he was too busy throwing a temper tantrum and not paying attention to the fact that Joe Crede did NOT catch his line drive.

 

Just to play devil's advocate:

 

- Thames has lost his starting spot with the Tigers, so you can't count him as a "starter" being on the bench. Also, every manager in baseball would have had IRod sit out the 4th game in a series when it's a day game after a night game. As for Neifi....well, I'd rather just sit back and laugh at that situation.

 

- Robertson was the sacrificial lamb for the Tigers. Leyland was so proactive on Wednesday night that he ended up burning his long relievers (Ledezma and Lewis). With the score 7-0, I don't blame him for leaving Robertson in to "die", and being able to rest his big 4 relievers for this wknd. With the way Garland was dealing, it's not like the Tigers were getting a lot of chances to make a huge rally.

 

- That was a fluke play. Casey's one of the most professional players in all of baseball. It's similar to someone complaining that Thome didn't hustle on a play. It's not like Ozzie has pulled anyone this year during a game due to lack of hustle.

 

The Tigers ended up splitting this series, which should have been their goal coming into it. As Thome pointed out, they should be thrilled that 4 games went off their schedule and they didn't lose any of their lead. If I had no interest in who won the game, I would have been extremely impressed by two of the wiser managerial moves I've seen all year (Leyland not pulling Rogers due to Sandy being up, as well as the masterful job of bringing in Walker w/2 strikes). So that I don't leave Ozzie out, he handled the bullpen very well in game 3, and he let our big 3 relievers win it or lose it for us.

[Dick Allen]

The big thing there is you have the rear view mirror to look into now. Its easy to look back a situation and say they won/lost so it was a good/bad move. Mostly I just wanted to offer up some examples of some of the "great" managers that we hear about so often, of things that Ozzie often gets criticized for himself. When you watch a single team all of the time, and get something specific in your head, when you watch a 162 games you will be able to find tons of examples of it to support your opinion, pretty much no matter what it is. Hell I can't believe people are honestly saying things like we are better off without Jim Thome in the line up?!?!?

I can't believe any Sox fan would have a problem with Thome either. My point about Gardenhire is, and its just speculation obviously as I don't follow everything that goes on with the Twins on a daily basis, I really doubt if he had a Widger-like back-up, he would have sat Mauer that day, although it was a day game after a night game, and I don't know when Mauer's last day off up until that point had been. Its a nice luxury to have when you are able to plug the back-up catcher into the 3 hole. It may be the only team in Major League history that does it.

[VAfan]

I think Ozzie Guillen is not a long term solution for the White Sox. He, like all managers for all teams, plays a role for a team struggling to shake itself out of a long time rut. When Ozzie came in two and a half years ago, he took a team with a lot of the pieces people thought necessary to make the postseason - and didn't make the postseason. However, it wasn't for a lack of his trying - it was from bringing a different kind of play and system into the White Sox strategy. New pieces were needed, and because we had a front office that wanted to win badly - new pieces were added. In 2005, we had a dream team - even if in the beginning, only the faithful saw it.

 

Ozzie inspired a team atmosphere that we hadn't seen in the White Sox in years. Sox Pride was very much what we saw. Do I expect us to repeat? Not really. And its not for a lack of talent, its more about the intangibles. As hungry as Oz was last year to win, this year - it felt as if he was just more content to sit on his laurels. It felt that way for a lot of his players too. I can understand that. It isn't often you get to be world champions - you should get to enjoy that for a little while.

 

From this die-hard New Jersey fan that follows more games on StatTrackers then TV, it seems like Ozzie manages on emotion rather than strategy. Although it can allow for amazing highs - like the 2005 post season, it can provide serious slumps - because emotion and "gut sense" seem to often get in the way of fundamental managing skills and fundamental baseball skills.

 

We're lucky to have Ozzie Guillen in our organization. He provided a spark (and still can provide it) that few other people could hope to be able to produce. Unfortunately, sparks don't often translate into lasting fires.

 

 

I think I agree most with this analysis.

 

This year, I've been pissed the most about his mishandling of Brandon McCarthy and Javier Vazquez. McCarthy could be the best long man in MLB, and we have a staff that needs a long man in a bad way this year, Vazquez especially. JV is a tremendous pitcher through 5 innings. After that, he's toast unless we have a big lead. So, in every game that's within 2-3 after 5, take him out and put in McCarthy. Bingo, we should have at least 5 more wins. BM could also help give rest to Freddie Garcia and Mark Buerhle, who obviously both need it. Instead, they are 50 innings too long, and BM is 50 innings too short. Unfortunately, it was Cliff Politte's melt down that undermined this early, and Ozzie's stubborn insistence that JV and the other pitchers suck it up and pitch like men. Problem with that is that tired arms need rest, not further overuse.

 

Still, here we sit with a 1/2 game lead in the wild card, still not having played baseball like we are capable of. I don't think any team in baseball wants to play us in the postseason. B/C this team knows how to suck it up offensively and stop chasing bad pitches. And we are loaded with clutch guys -- Crede, Dye, Konerko, AJ, etc., etc. -- who know how to battle. Plus, we have some money pitchers who might just turn it on at the right time -- both in the rotation and the pen.

 

I love Ozzie b/c he BELIEVES IN THE SOX. He believes we are the best. And he's not afraid of anyone.

 

GO WHITE SOX!!!

[Wealz]

How can anyone not be happy with the position the Sox are currently in given the year-long performance of the rotation?

[whitesoxfan101]

Ozzie brings in a dead fastball pitcher to face a dead fastball hitter, after using Cotts sorry ass to face Morneau. Of all his dumb moves, this might top the list this year.

[fathom]

Ozzie sure looked like a genius in the 6th inning tonight. Way to use our worst relievers in a huge game.

[fathom]

The 6th inning was the worst managed inning I've ever seen. Ozzie violated my #1 rule for a manager, which is to always put your team in the best position to succeed.

Edited August 26, 2006 by fathom

[Wealz]

The 6th inning was the worst managed inning I've ever seen. Ozzie violated my #1 rule for a manager, which is to always put your team in the best position to succeed.

 

What should have been done differently?

[whitesoxfan101]

If you think Ozzie Guillen is a good manager after tonight, I have no respect for you as a baseball fan. He might have just cost us our season.

 

Every day from this point forward he is our manager is a setback for the franchise's on the field product. I don't think I've ever seen a worse managed game in my life. Please, call somebody else a f** and get fired Ozzie, please?

[fathom]

What should have been done differently?

 

Lets see....in the biggest game of our season, we bring in Neal Cotts to face a very good lefty. Cotts can't get any lefties out right now. Predictably, two pitches later, there's a hit. Then, we bring in our 4th best righty out of the pen, and the guy is notorious for being terrible in clutch situations. One pitch later, and we're trailing. Then, with two guys on in the bottom of the inning, we let one of the worst starting players in baseball hit against a tough lefty. Predictably, he hits a weak grounder to 1B.

[BigSqwert]

Will any reporter ever call Ozzie out? What the hell do they ask him in the post game interviews?

[whitesoxfan101]

Mack did fine today in CF, but today seeing him the lineup sent me over the edge with Oz. Anderson has been great the last two months, gets his 1st triple yesterday, and makes a Web gem grab, and he gets rewarded with a trip on the bench.

 

I dont even have to get into the McCarthy situation. It has been a JOKE what has been done to the arm of Brandon McCarthy this year.

I really have been in Ozzie's corner for the whole year. For me, it's hard to be against a manager that brought a World Champion to my team. However, I have to take of the WS blinders, and realize how many mistakes he really is making.

 

If we hadn't won the World Series last year, I'd say Ozzie HAS to be fired after this season. The WS blinders are the only reason I am not saying that yet, his sorry ass is lucky the pitching won him job security last year.

[whitesoxfan101]

The 6th inning was the worst managed inning I've ever seen. Ozzie violated my #1 rule for a manager, which is to always put your team in the best position to succeed.

 

He violates it at least once or twice a week with his lineups and pitching staff management. But tonight was as egregious as ever for him, which says a lot.

[fathom]

If we hadn't won the World Series last year, I'd say Ozzie HAS to be fired after this season. The WS blinders are the only reason I am not saying that yet, his sorry ass is lucky the pitching won him job security last year.

 

I actually agree with this, and that's why I know he won't be fired after this season due to on-field stuff. The only way he's fired is if he says some more inappropriate things in the media.

[Wanne]

Lets see....in the biggest game of our season, we bring in Neal Cotts to face a very good lefty. Cotts can't get any lefties out right now. Predictably, two pitches later, there's a hit. Then, we bring in our 4th best righty out of the pen, and the guy is notorious for being terrible in clutch situations. One pitch later, and we're trailing. Then, with two guys on in the bottom of the inning, we let one of the worst starting players in baseball hit against a tough lefty. Predictably, he hits a weak grounder to 1B.

 

 

Neal Cotts can't get ANYBODY out right now. And the excuse I read this week to continously trot him out there to "get out of his rut" completely pisses my off. Get out of your rut in Charlotte. Right now I can't even begin to describe who I'm more pissed off at this season...Neal Cotts or Ozzie.

 

GODDAMMIT!

[Brian]

I don't think Ozzie can win with some people here. He pulls Vazquez in the 6th, like most of you want to do. You can't bring in Thornton or MacDougal in the 6th. You didn't see Gardenhire bringing in Rincon or Reyes that early.

Blame Cotts and Riske for being garbage.

[whitesoxfan101]

I don't think Ozzie can win with some people here. He pulls Vazquez in the 6th, like most of you want to do. You can't bring in Thornton or MacDougal in the 6th. You didn't see Gardenhire bringing in Rincon or Reyes that early.

Blame Cotts and Riske for being garbage.

 

Where is Brandon McCarthy?? And Vasquez should have been left in for Morneau, who he had made look bad twice, if your not bringing in B-Mac or Thornton (I could see why not Thornton). He mad made Morneau look bad twice, and I honestly wouldn't have hated him if he left in Javy there, since it was our best option if he hates B-Mac that much and wanted to save Matt.

[Wealz]

Lets see....in the biggest game of our season, we bring in Neal Cotts to face a very good lefty. Cotts can't get any lefties out right now. Predictably, two pitches later, there's a hit. Then, we bring in our 4th best righty out of the pen, and the guy is notorious for being terrible in clutch situations. One pitch later, and we're trailing. Then, with two guys on in the bottom of the inning, we let one of the worst starting players in baseball hit against a tough lefty. Predictably, he hits a weak grounder to 1B.

 

Cotts should be replaced on the roster if he can't be used in the 6th to get a lefty out. That's a GM problem. Would you have preffered MacDougal & Jenks pitch the last 3.1 innings? That's a great way to burn out your pen before September.

[fathom]

I don't think Ozzie can win with some people here. He pulls Vazquez in the 6th, like most of you want to do. You can't bring in Thornton or MacDougal in the 6th. You didn't see Gardenhire bringing in Rincon or Reyes that early.

Blame Cotts and Riske for being garbage.

 

You absolutely could have brought in Thornton or MacDougal in that situation.

[ottawa_sox]

Lets see....in the biggest game of our season, we bring in Neal Cotts to face a very good lefty. Cotts can't get any lefties out right now. Predictably, two pitches later, there's a hit. Then, we bring in our 4th best righty out of the pen, and the guy is notorious for being terrible in clutch situations. One pitch later, and we're trailing. Then, with two guys on in the bottom of the inning, we let one of the worst starting players in baseball hit against a tough lefty. Predictably, he hits a weak grounder to 1B.

 

Ozzie calls on 4 relievers over 3 1/3 innings and 3 of them give up runs. The Twins march out 5 relievers over 7 innings and give up 1 run. Their guys outhit and outperformed our guys in the clutch. But of course it's all on Ozzie.

[whitesoxfan101]

Cotts should be replaced on the roster if he can't be used in the 6th to get a lefty out. That's a GM problem. Would you have preffered MacDougal & Jenks pitch the last 3.1 innings? That's a great way to burn out your pen before September.

 

How about McCarthy, Thornton, MacDougal, and Jenks? 4 pitchers for 3.1 innings in a huge game isn't too much to ask.

[fathom]

Cotts should be replaced on the roster if he can't be used in the 6th to get a lefty out. That's a GM problem. Would you have preffered MacDougal & Jenks pitch the last 3.1 innings? That's a great way to burn out your pen before September.

 

For those 10 outs, there's no doubt in my mind we had a better chance to win if we would have just used our big 3. I would have sacrificed my bullpen for tomorrow in order to give ourselves the best chance to win tonight. We still have this solid pitcher named McCarthy in the bullpen....but Ozzie doesn't like him.