The Ozzie Guillen Battleground Thread

[jackie hayes]

Yes I do agree on that. I do agree.

But I can see why Oz doesn't want to play BA everyday.

I have a feeling a lot of decisions are made by committee, KW and Oz.

I do agree it is demoralizing to see Mack have no clue in cf. I just wish

Brian had not been an automatic out so long for Oz to not believe he is

an everyday player.

That's why I moaned about the loss of Rowand so much. I know Rowand

isn't perfect but BA definitely wasn't ready for everyday prime time and

we have no backup.

If Ozzie feels that way, then he should have demanded a cf from KW in the strongest possible language. Even if BA is not an everyday cf, Mack is not a cf on any day. After the Alomar trade, I have to believe that Kenny would have listened.

 

Imo, BA is an everyday cf. But if Oz refuses to play him, we NEED to get another.

[Jordan4life_2007]

BA has been a better hitter since the break than Mack has. Without even discussing the obvious defensive difference.

 

BA since the break: .293/.336/.455/.791

 

Mack since the break: .291/.339/.418/.757

 

And like you said, that's not even getting into the fact that Brian is one of the top two or three defensive CFs in baseball. And Mack, well, isn't.

[Rowand44]

To say Brian Anderson is not an everday cf is a joke.

 

EDIT: By the way, I personally can not wait till Ozzie is gone.

Edited August 27, 2006 by Rowand44

[greg775]

I can't believe after last year anybody would want Oz gone so quickly.

That is so f***ing ridiculous I can't beliieve it.

We won the f***ing World series.

You think we would have won it with ANYBODY but Oz?

Give me a break.

I mean criticism is fine. But this team's pitching has been HORSEs***

Is that Oz's fault???

If you want Oz gone, fine, bring in Piniella or LaRussa when he gets

fired after this season.

 

I wish Oz well as he manages the next 25 years in some other city.

He'll win several World Series.

s***, he's already won 2.

Ozzie Guillen is not a good, but a GREAT manager.

[Jordan4life_2007]

To say Brian Anderson is not an everday cf is a joke.

 

EDIT: By the way, I personally can not wait till Ozzie is gone.

 

Oh snaps. You knows it's bad when Rowand wishes Ozzie would vanish.

[StrangeSox]

I can't believe after last year anybody would want Oz gone so quickly.

That is so f***ing ridiculous I can't beliieve it.

We won the f***ing World series.

You think we would have won it with ANYBODY but Oz?

Give me a break.

I mean criticism is fine. But this team's pitching has been HORSEs***

Is that Oz's fault???

If you want Oz gone, fine, bring in Piniella or LaRussa when he gets

fired after this season.

 

I wish Oz well as he manages the next 25 years in some other city.

He'll win several World Series.

s***, he's already won 2.

Ozzie Guillen is not a good, but a GREAT manager.

 

 

You give Joe Torre, Leyland, Gardenhire, etc. the success of the White Sox pitching staff last year and they win, easly.

 

The pitching this year has been far from great. Part of that is Oz's fault because he routinely leaves his pitchers in too long and misuses the bullpen. Another part is playing a different lineup every day and not putting the best defense out onto the field.

Edited August 27, 2006 by StrangeSox

[The Critic]

You give Joe Torre, Leyland, Gardenhire, etc. the success of the White Sox pitching staff last year and they win, easly.

 

The pitching this year has been far from great. Part of that is Oz's fault because he routinely leaves his pitchers in too long and misuses the bullpen. Another part is playing a different lineup every day and not putting the best defense out onto the field.

You can say that about any manager.

Give them the recent failings of Contreras, Buerhle and Vasquez and would they win easily?

Let's review:

Leyland (despite his Florida WS victory) has an overall losing record with every team he's managed before Detroit.

Torre didn't win anything anywhere outside of the Bronx.

Gardenhire has won divisions, but hasn't led a team into the World Series.

 

Good teams make good managers in general, not only in Ozzie's case.

[StrangeSox]

Good teams make good managers in general, not only in Ozzie's case.

 

I agree completely, that was my point. I was responding to the "they wouldn't have won with anyone but Ozzie" comment.

[The Critic]

I agree completely, that was my point. I was responding to the "they wouldn't have won with anyone but Ozzie" comment.

Oh, OK, gotcha.

Although I would argue that they would not have won with Jerry Manuel in charge.

But that's a different discussion....

[Wealz]

You give Joe Torre, Leyland, Gardenhire, etc. the success of the White Sox pitching staff last year and they win, easly.

 

The pitching this year has been far from great. Part of that is Oz's fault because he routinely leaves his pitchers in too long and misuses the bullpen. Another part is playing a different lineup every day and not putting the best defense out onto the field.

 

Far from great? Call it like it is, the starting pitching has been brutal. Give any other manager THIS year's starters and they are nowhere near 5.5 games behind the best team in baseball, in the toughest division in baseball. The pen hasn't been much better either.

[StrangeSox]

Far from great? Call it like it is, the starting pitching has been brutal. Give any other manager THIS year's starters and they are nowhere near 5.5 games behind the best team in baseball, in the toughest division in baseball. The pen hasn't been much better either.

 

 

Why do you think no one else is near Ozzie's level? How can you possibly support the way he's handled Vazquez, BMac, and Anderson?

[Wealz]

Why do you think no one else is near Ozzie's level? How can you possibly support the way he's handled Vazquez, BMac, and Anderson?

 

He won a WORLD SERIES with the Chicago White Sox for goodness sake. Won 99 games, went 11-1 in the postseason, with a team that many didn't think would finish higher than third in its division, some said fourth, before the season started. That's why no one is near Guillen's level.

 

Kenny Williams traded for Vazquez, gave up an awful lot for him and is paying him big money. How should Guillen handle him? I don't understand what's been bad about the handling of Anderson or McCarthy.

[SoxHawk1980]

He won a WORLD SERIES with the Chicago White Sox for goodness sake. Won 99 games, went 11-1 in the postseason, with a team that many didn't think would finish higher than third in its division, some said fourth, before the season started. That's why no one is near Guillen's level.

In 2005, Guillen and this team were carried by great starting pitching and a great bullpen. The Sox won last year despite Ozzie's poor managing which nearly sunk this team in the stretch run. Now, the pitching isn't carrying the team anymore and Ozzie's HORRIBLE managing is exposed. He doesn't know how to fill out a lineup card. He doesn't know when to play regulars and when to sit them. He doesn't know when to pull a starting pitcher and he doesn't know how to handle a bullpen. Even worse, he doesn't know how to motivate a team and wake them the hell up. He sits there and yawns while the team sleepwalks its way to loss after loss.

 

Ozzie has done a horrible job this year. He is a bad manager. Fire Ozzie.

[Wealz]

In 2005, Guillen and this team were carried by great starting pitching and a great bullpen. The Sox won last year despite Ozzie's poor managing which nearly sunk this team in the stretch run. Now, the pitching isn't carrying the team anymore and Ozzie's HORRIBLE managing is exposed. He doesn't know how to fill out a lineup card. He doesn't know when to play regulars and when to sit them. He doesn't know when to pull a starting pitcher and he doesn't know how to handle a bullpen. Even worse, he doesn't know how to motivate a team and wake them the hell up. He sits there and yawns while the team sleepwalks its way to loss after loss.

 

Ozzie has done a horrible job this year. He is a bad manager. Fire Ozzie.

 

The pitching isn't just not carrying the team anymore. It has been terrible. Guillen has done a great job as evidenced by having a legit shot at the playoffs going into September.

[fathom]

Fathom do you believe Oz Guillen who played the game for 15 years or

however many and has 2 world series rings has no idea about his players

abilities???

Fathom did he create the roster??? KW did.

I disagree with his use of the Sunday lineup sometimes but my gawd you are

a smart baseball person. I don't understand your infatuation with Ozzie

being a s*** manager.

Ozzie knows the game of baseball fathom; you act like he is about as smart

as Terry Bevington.

 

Ozzie had just as much say in the roster as KW did. And yes, I think he's a bad manager who continues to violate my #1 rule.

 

The pitching isn't just not carrying the team anymore. It has been terrible. The offense has done a great job as evidenced by having a legit shot at the playoffs going into September.

 

Fixed

[SoxnGiants]

Ozzie keeps Brian Anderson on the bench due to his hitting, despite great defense.

 

Does anyone else find it ironic that Ozzie Guillen would have sat on the bench, like BA, if he was being managed by Ozzie Guillen. I would have thought that if any manager respected defense it would have been Ozzie.

[Dick Allen]

For all the Ozzie apologists, since you believe the only reason the Sox won the WS last year was him, I to a certain extent, believe he believes that, how can you not give him blame when every questionable thing he does blows up in his face?

Edited August 27, 2006 by Dick Allen

[Rowand44]

Ozzie keeps Brian Anderson on the bench due to his hitting, despite great defense.

The problem with that is the fact that he's been a very good hitter since the all star break. Anderson continues to develop into a very good major league ball player and Ozzie refuses to play him everyday.

[StrangeSox]

He won a WORLD SERIES with the Chicago White Sox for goodness sake. Won 99 games, went 11-1 in the postseason, with a team that many didn't think would finish higher than third in its division, some said fourth, before the season started. That's why no one is near Guillen's level.

 

Kenny Williams traded for Vazquez, gave up an awful lot for him and is paying him big money. How should Guillen handle him? I don't understand what's been bad about the handling of Anderson or McCarthy.

 

I don't understand how you can believe that.

 

The pitching carried this team last year, plain and simple. It was OK for Guillen to leave guys in until the 7th or 8th because they were just pitching that well. The bullpen was also untouchable, for the most part. Guillen could stick Pollite, Cotts, Hermanson, or Jenks out there and it didn't matter. If you think that another manager couldn't have won with that team, you're delusional.

 

Guillen should pull Vazquez before he implodes like clockwork. He does it almost every single start: get into the third time through the lineup, and he gets knocked around. PULL HIM BEFORE THIS HAPPENS.

 

McCarthy is rotting away in the pen, rarely being used and often having his role change. Use him effectively. If this is what they wanted to do with him this year, they should have kept him in AAA to keep getting starts or traded him away for a good player at the deadline. Right now he's basically a waste and Ozzie has made it clear that he doesn't think that highly of him.

 

Anderson hit poorly for about half the season. Defensively, he's always been at least good if not "great" or "one of the best in the league." Offensively, he's turned it around since the ASB, pulling his once-terrible AVG up to ~.227. Mackowiak is a butcher out in CF and screws up every time he's out there. At least once a game he screws up a play and often it leads to a run. Offensively, he's now no better than Anderson. There is NO REASON AT ALL that Anderson should be sitting on the bench, aside from every once in a while for some rest. This BS of sitting him every other day is just retarded.

[mr_genius]

i still like ozzie

 

don't care what anyone says

[MinnySoxFan]

Weren't people calling for Ozzie's head for keeping Anderson in the lineup earlier in the year?

 

I think Ozzie makes mistakes and is an unconventional coach, but I also think that part of that is part of what helped us win the Series last year.

 

Our pitching WAS amazing last year. But that team was also on the ropes at one point and I give a large chunk of the late season comeback to Ozzie and Crede. So to say "he doesn't know how to motivate a team and wake them the hell up" doesn't seem entirely fair. And I do think it's a good point that, for as bad as it feels like this team is sometimes, their still right in the middle of the wild card race.

 

One more thing...statements like this, "For all the Ozzie apologists, since you believe the only reason the Sox won the WS last year was him," do nothing to further a real discussion about Ozzie.

 

Plus, seriously, the dude was our coach of our team that won the flippin' World Series last year. He doesn't even get like one year of leeway? I can understand criticism. I just can't understand criticism that either isn't at least somewhat tempered or over the top criticism like "fire him now". Seems a bit ridiculous.

[cgaudin]

He won a WORLD SERIES with the Chicago White Sox for goodness sake. Won 99 games, went 11-1 in the postseason, with a team that many didn't think would finish higher than third in its division, some said fourth, before the season started. That's why no one is near Guillen's level.

 

Kenny Williams traded for Vazquez, gave up an awful lot for him and is paying him big money. How should Guillen handle him? I don't understand what's been bad about the handling of Anderson or McCarthy.

 

I am rather surprised that Anderson is still in the majors. I even commented that Ozzie has given this kid the most rope I have seen for any potential major leaguer, except for maybe Corey Patterson when he was with the Cubs. Ozzie has been the most supportive of keeping that dead weight in the big club. So you are totally off-base when you suggest that he has mishandled Anderson. If anything, he doesn't want to put the kid in a position to kill the confidence he has gained with the way he's come along in the last 6 weeks. If he were to fall apart again he might never recover. Now, I'll give you that Ozzie must have something against BMac 'cause his use of him has been atrocious. Sheesh, if he's gonna be a starter, BMac needs to get thrown into the lion's mouth. I think Ozzie doesn't have confidence or doesn't like him personally.

[stretchstretch]

Weren't people calling for Ozzie's head for keeping Anderson in the lineup earlier in the year?

 

Yes, and that was a mistake by Ozzie, and now he's hitting great and he benches him?? another mistake by Ozzie. The kid has the game of his life in the 10-0 route at Detroit and then come home and bench the guy, what kind of message is that????? In yesterday's game MN only went up 5-1 due to a ball way over Mak's head that BA at least would have had a shot at (as would Rowand;-). The defense wins championships philosophy is either there or it's not, and if Ozzie practices what he preaches BA and Uribe start, period. He stuck with the guy when he was struggling, supposedly for his D, so what in G's name can be the reason not to play him now???

 

Anyone know BA's avg in the second half, we know it's good, but I never see it stated by anyone?

[Wealz]

You can't pot McCarthy in the rotation because the trade value this offseason of whoever he replaces will become next to nothing. It's critical to the master plan to get as much as they can for one of their starters. At the very least, if it's Vazquez that gets trade, you want the team trading for him to pick up most of the remainder of his contract.

[WHarris1]

Anyone know BA's avg in the second half, we know it's good, but I never see it stated by anyone?

.298