The Ozzie Guillen Battleground Thread

[fathom]

I can't see Oz lasting here much longer. He loves the Sox too much and is too passionate.

He can't stand the criticism.

He'll be quiet the next 20 years managing the Cardinals or Braves or Blue Jays.

 

Much of the criticism Ozzie has received in the press is due to his big mouth. I wonder who the coach was that he told to "shut up" tonight before he got ejected?

[greg775]

True, he has a big mouth.

I personally like his style, just as I like Ditka.

 

Mariotti will have a lot of fun covering the next manager who says "we play

them one game at a time" like the Royals' Buddy Bell.

[Drew]

How many times has Ozzie Guillen been tossed for arguing balls and strikes this year?

 

I remember Ron Kulpa tossing him and Don Cooper in Minnesota over a check-swing and sometime during one of the Cleveland series earlier this year. The only time out of the five I remember that wasn't was the 8/10 game vs. the Yankees over Eric Cooper's pre-meditated 'safe' call on Bobby Abreu.

 

I felt that Iassogna was giving Rogers strikes he wasn't giving to Buehrle, but Ozzie has to be smart enough to realize he has no check and balance against the umpires. I'm not even sure Bud Selig does. The entire team, including Buehrle, allowed that douchebag to take us out of the game, mentally. By the second inning. Champions don't let that happen.

 

Captain Obvious says that we have not been playing like World Champions this year, period. The starting pitching that set the tone last year is struggling, the defense isn't as efficient. The offense has not been carrying us like it did the first half. While that is what the men on the field and at the dish are charged with, Ozzie can be charged with not making enough adjustments to try and turn things around.

 

Last year, Ozzie only used the same lineup something like three days in a row. The plug-and-play with the bench players notwithstanding, the only adjustment to the lineup he made that I can readily remember was recently when Thome and Konerko were out. Perhaps he was willing to shake up the order because he was without a marquee DH for all but 34 games last season?

 

Jim Thome was on a tear the first half of the season and he is now struggling. For the past few weeks, he has consistently made the third out in the Sox half of the first, or often he will tap out to second with RISP, and isn't drawing as many walks as earlier on in the season. Dusty Baker did the same thing with Sammy Sosa, not moving him from the #3 slot in 2004 because Sammy was 'sensitive.' I'm pretty sure Jim Thome is man enough to take a temporary demotion--he came to the Sox because he wanted to win, no?

 

His handling of the starting rotation has been piss-poor. Brandon McCarthy could have and should have been moved into the rotation several different times this season as an answer to the underperformance of Garcia or Vazquez but it hasn't happened. I don't understand what he is waiting on. I don't understand why KW hasn't intervened. If they aren't going to use Brandon McCarthy, DO SOMETHING WITH HIM, like get him in a deal for someobody.*

 

While Ozzie Guillen will forever be remembered for bringing a World Series Champion to Chicago, I would not be surprised to see him packing his bags in the next few seasons.

 

*No, I am not suggesting Brandon McCarthy be traded. I am simply expressing frustration that he has barely been used at all when the circumstances would point to it.

Edited August 23, 2006 by Drew

[Mplssoxfan]

Ok, well for a while I thought I was the only person around here that was anti-Ozzie, but with the way the boards have turned lately, I thought this thread was indeed necessary to get thoughts out on Ozzie, good and bad (just like the offseason thread is necessary).

 

As a person who personally thinks Ozzie Guillen is an atrocious manager, here are just some general thoughts I have to get started.

 

1). Ozzie is almost Dusty Baker esque in his preference of veteran players to younger ones. Brian Anderson (a GREAT defender) is hitting .290 in the last 9 weeks, yet Mack has to play CF against all non pathetic righties (even though Brian hits righties BETTER than lefties). We all know the pathetic use and treatment of McCarthy, right down to "he's not bleeping Cy Young". Why is Pablo Ozuna on this team, other than he's a 30 something Latin that supposedly can run?? Why did we trade for Sandy Alomar when Chris Stewart is probably a better option at this point (Kenny wanted Sandy IS NOT an answer). Hell we could bring up Sweeney or even freaking Owens if we had to instead of Ozuna being here, at least we'd have adequate CF defense if Brian is out.

 

2). I DO NOT blame Ozzie for the starting pitching. Does he handle it like crap? Of course, BUT at the same time he has to try and get innings out of them, and it's obviously not his fault this staff has underachieved at this pace. This is the one area I'll defend him I suppose.

 

3). Handeling of the bullpen. I could go on ALL DAY about this, fro m the use of McCarthy, to bringing in pathetic Neal Cotts and subsequently ending all hopes on Friday, and then doing it AGAIN on Sunday, to bringing in Bobby Jenks in the 8th/middle of innings when he can't get people out in those spots, to the Sean Tracey incident, to not using a consistent set up role, even lately when he's had good set up guys like Eminem and Thornton. And that's just the stuff off the top of my head.

 

4). Inconsistent lineups. Yeah it was real cute last year since we won it all, but the fact that Ozzie can't ever consistently play a consistent lineup doesn't help the offense at all, it doesn't help the pitching since Lord Knows who is going to be behind them in the field, and it doesn't allow the players to get into any kind of rhythm. Imagine this offense (which leads the league in runs) if the lineup were actually consistent every day?? I know guys need rest sometimes, but the lineup alterations are ridiculous.

 

5). Rob Mackowiak in CF. Is he the only defensive option behind Anderson out there? Yeah probably, but he should not be out there ever unless it's once every 2 weeks plus to give Anderson a break. The overuse of Mack in CF other than days off for Anderson on rare occasion (especially since Anderson is now hitting, against all kinds of pitchers) has cost us at least 4 or 5 games this year, and at the end of the year may be the difference between making the playoffs and not making them.

 

6). The inablity of this team to play "small ball", bunt, hit the ball the other way, or show any sort of fundementals. The pulling the ball constantly thing could probably be blamed moreso on hitting coach Greg Walker, however at the same time, this team can't bunt, they are horrible fundementally, the small ball aspect of the game is non existent, and if we don't hit homers, we suck. I know the pitching covered it up last year, but other than Pods and Gooch in 2005, this team has been home run or nothing in 2004, 2005, and 2006. And I thought we'd never be like that with Ozzie, that's what I was told at the presser in which he was hired.

 

7.) Ozzie's preferential treatment of speed, and love of stolen bases. Obviously stolen bases and speed are part of the game, but Ozzie, this isn't 1977. Guys have to get on base in order to score runs, and it doesn't matter if they are fast or not. Plus, Ozzie.....Iguchi, Pods, and Ozuna ARE NOT FAST THIS YEAR, so stop stealing with them (and Dye and everybody else for that matter), because it's not worth the risk at the rate they get caught and with the ability this offense has. Stolen bases are overrated as is speed, you can either defend or you can't, you can either hit or you can't. Ozzie keeps playing Pods and Ozuna even though they can do nothing but run (and this year, neither of them are really even that fast, it's just the idea they can run that Ozzie loves. And neither can defend). Check the numbers, other than Pods last year even, the team didn't steal a whole lot of bases, and last year (unlike this) we NEEDED to manufacture runs since the offense sucked. This is a different team and different personnel.

 

8). They look dead. This is a more recent trened to be honest, and part of it is the starting pitching I'll admit. But look at this team recently, they don't even appear to give a damn out there. Ozzie, if nothing else, if firey and supposedly fires up the troops with his attitude, but it sure hasn't looked that way the last month plus. If Ozzie's team is playing like dogs, then what good is he? He's not a pitching staff specialist, a strategist, or anything else like that.

 

Ok, that's just the stuff I could of off the top of my head, but more will be coming as the days go along I'm sure. Ozzie defenders, the floor is yours and I only have 2 rules please: No use of the term "he won us a championship last year"!! or "Ozzieball". My dog could have managed us to a World Series title with that pitching staff, and we STILL almost choked it away (it being a 15 game lead) in September.

 

OK.

 

1) I agree, for the most part, especially about BA and Sandy. I will say however, that you're better off with a guy like Ozuna who knows he's a role player (and knows his role), than a guy out of the minors riding the bench. Let the youngsters play in Charlotte until they're win a starting job or until it's obvious they're no better than a bench guy.

 

2) Agreed. It's tough to blame a manager for inconsistent starting pitching.

 

3) It definitely might be better to use Cotts in lower-pressure situations until he regains confidence. I really don't know why Thornton isn't the LH set-up guy right now.

 

4) Strongly disagree. Think it was blind luck that everyone but Timo contributed positively in the postseason last year? I don't. Ozzie used the bench very well last year, letting guys learn their roles and giving starters sufficient rest. When crunch time came, everyone could punch the pedal to the floor and go. I don't think you can ask guys to play 3 weeks in a row all season long and expect them to be fresh in September.

 

5) It's a fine line between too many days off and too few, I think. Of the three guys in the OF, BA should be able to play the most, but who can say? A day off every 9-10 days is ideal, probably, but sometimes you can't schedule days off that neatly.

 

6) Bunting is a lost art everywhere, not just with the Sox. To expect players raised on Roid Ball to be able to lay a bunt down consistently is farfetched -- to blame the manager for the lack of bunting prowess is farfetched as well. If guys haven't been taught to bunt in their youth, they're sure not going to learn in the Show. Blaming the hitting coach for slumps is the easy way out. Players probably don't listen to the hitting coach as much as we believe they do anyway; they probably use his counsel to make small adjustments, not big ones.

 

7) I, too think that SB's are overrated, and I think this is the best criticism of Ozzie. Unfortunately, he believes too much in the running game and it backfires all too often.

 

8) This is valid, but I also think that guys should be able to motivate themselves. They're getting a lot of US currency to play this game, they're adults -- they shouldn't need someone to kick them in the butt every day. Having said that, sometimes gang slumps happen and you just have to work your way out of them.

 

Thanks, 101, for getting this going. I still think that this race is going to go into the last week despite our recent troubles, and despite Ozzie.

[qwerty]

But he was "brilliant" last year? C'mon. Bottom line is starting pitching has not done the job. Subsequently, the pen has been overexposed, which leads to a snowball effect of pisspoor pitching performance.

 

Thome has been a great hitter this year. But I've said all year that he's not the right 3 hitter for this team. He is the primary reason why the offense is predicated solely on the long ball. He's also the strike out extraordinaire of this team. That is Guillen's fault for abandoning a key ingredient from last year's offense. It wasn't a power offense, but it was a PRESSURE offense. Team speed is atrocious, and the offense is nothing like what it was last year. Last year's team didn't score a lot of runs, but the offense was CONSISTENT in scoring a few runs. Like the top thread indicated, if not for the long ball, this team does not score runs. That alone has cost this team about 7 or 8 wins this season.

Ozzie's only flaw is that he puts too much stock on a player's history, as opposed to his current game rhythm. In other words, he thinks "He came through for us last year, he'll do it again" while ignoring that player's slumping tendencies. I hate the Yankees, but I love Joe Torre. He doesn't put up with garbage for too long. If a player ain't producing, they dig deep to find a replacement quickly, and he rides out players on a hot streak better than anyone in baseball.

 

The sox are in the top of the league is many of the major offensive categories. What i put up in bold is just a guess and you have zero facts to back up that claim. Jim thome is still the very least of our problems and will continue to be all year. The sox were not a power offense last year? Is that why they hit over 200 homeruns along to go with one of the highest home run to run ratio in baseball? Hmm...

[kapkomet]

We state opinions on this board all the time. Opinions can't be proven. One can support them, but not prove them. They are not factual assertions. If we could only post on this forum things that we could prove, there were be about 12 posts.

I guess I need to spell this out for you, then. I don't want people posting that they are playing purely because of their race. I'm not allowing that suggestion to even be implied, without further proof of KNOWING what's going on in the clubhouse (ie, you are THERE) - and there are very few on this board who get that priveledge. Otherwise, to suggest players are playing purely because of their race is not acceptable.

[DBAHO]

The sox are in the top of the league is many of the major offensive categories. What i put up in bold is just a guess and you have zero facts to back up that claim. Jim thome is still the very least of our problems and will continue to be all year. The sox were not a power offense last year? Is that why they hit over 200 homeruns along to go with one of the highest home run to run ratio in baseball? Hmm...

Yeah the offense hasn't been a problem this season at all. It's only been in the last 5 games or so, they haven't particuarly gotten the job done, and since that's fresh in people's minds, people are going to say, it's the long ball or nothing.

[Colorado Sox Fan]

When the team struggles, Ozzie's terrible. When we're on a roll, he's a genius. Proven players like MB, Count, Garcia, Thome, Pods have failed us in the clutch. That's why we're not where we want to be.

[Milkman delivers]

I understand that Thome has been tremendous for us this year, but it'd be nice if he'd hit a few homers here and there. Seems like he's hit 4 homers in the past month and a half.

 

And Ozzie had a very big role in getting Vazquez on this team (as someone said it was KW who made the move). Of course KW wanted it to happen and worked out the trade, but isn't Ozzie pretty much the guy who talked Javy into screwing us over this year?

[Balta1701]

This is advice that I should follow more. As soon as the game is over tonight, leave this site for the rest of the night, and find something completely non-Sox related to do. No amount of complaining by us is going to chance anything right now.

2 nights ago, I skipped the game to buy a car.

 

Last night, I skipped the game to go driving. (Finally got to the Rose Bowl)

 

I think I'm happier because of both.

 

Yeah the offense hasn't been a problem this season at all. It's only been in the last 5 games or so, they haven't particuarly gotten the job done, and since that's fresh in people's minds, people are going to say, it's the long ball or nothing.

But you know what? There have been a few things that have given us trouble all year, like Left-handed pitching, and no steps have been taken to try to really correct those problems (like moving Dye into the 3-hole, at least if a Lefty is starting).

[Jimbo's Drinker]

Ozzie will always be a hero to me. As much as I want more championships, i got one in my back pocket, and that will do for a few years.

 

[kapkomet]

Isn't Ozzie pretty much the guy who talked Javy into screwing us over this year?

 

 

What do you mean by this?

[DrunkBomber]

I think its a combination of many things. things that were overlooked last year due to the success, especially of the pitching. I dont think there would be as much dismay for Ozzie if he didnt have the media circus he has this year or if they were winning a little better. Most years we would be happy being in contention for the playoffs late in the year but the fact remains that this team is built to win now and it might not be Ozzies fault the starters have dropped off but there are many other things that have been fumbled with his in game management.

[Milkman delivers]

What do you mean by this?

 

screwing us over this year = pitching for us

[NorthSideSox72]

Ozzie article from today's Trib (don't think its been posted yet, but I could be wrong):

http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseb...i-sportsnew-hed

 

I do see one thing that is interesting - Ozzie's tone is changing. He is starting to aim his ire and fire at the pitching, execution and the team in general now (as opposed to everyone else on the face of the earth). I saw this last year in September, and the team picked it up. I saw it this year in April or May, and the team picked it up. I am hoping this will happen again.

[Soxbadger]

I think it would be hard to argue that Ozzie is a very good in game manager. Even last year he was not that amazing, but that is not what he brings to the table.

 

Ozzie is an emotional manager, the type of leader that gets his players to give everything for him. So far the team has not quit on him, and probably he has kept them intense and in the division race eventhough they have not lived up to many fans expectations.

 

And the comparisons to Baker are some what off, Ozzie does play young guys, they gave BA the starters role for CF something Baker would have never allowed. The whole B-Mac thing is for debate, some think he is ready to start full time, others do not.

 

Anyways hopefully he can keep them emotionally in it until the end.

[greg775]

Proven players like MB, Count, Garcia, Thome, Pods have failed us in the clutch. That's why we're not where we want to be.

Amen, brotha.

[Rex Kickass]

I think Ozzie Guillen is not a long term solution for the White Sox. He, like all managers for all teams, plays a role for a team struggling to shake itself out of a long time rut. When Ozzie came in two and a half years ago, he took a team with a lot of the pieces people thought necessary to make the postseason - and didn't make the postseason. However, it wasn't for a lack of his trying - it was from bringing a different kind of play and system into the White Sox strategy. New pieces were needed, and because we had a front office that wanted to win badly - new pieces were added. In 2005, we had a dream team - even if in the beginning, only the faithful saw it.

 

Ozzie inspired a team atmosphere that we hadn't seen in the White Sox in years. Sox Pride was very much what we saw. Do I expect us to repeat? Not really. And its not for a lack of talent, its more about the intangibles. As hungry as Oz was last year to win, this year - it felt as if he was just more content to sit on his laurels. It felt that way for a lot of his players too. I can understand that. It isn't often you get to be world champions - you should get to enjoy that for a little while.

 

From this die-hard New Jersey fan that follows more games on StatTrackers then TV, it seems like Ozzie manages on emotion rather than strategy. Although it can allow for amazing highs - like the 2005 post season, it can provide serious slumps - because emotion and "gut sense" seem to often get in the way of fundamental managing skills and fundamental baseball skills.

 

We're lucky to have Ozzie Guillen in our organization. He provided a spark (and still can provide it) that few other people could hope to be able to produce. Unfortunately, sparks don't often translate into lasting fires.

[greg775]

I just hope Ozzie outlasts that cbssportline guy and Mariotti.

Mariotti wants towin the head to head battle with Ozzie obviously in pursuit

of a manager who will come in and be as boring as Jerry Manuel and Buddy

Bell and 95 percent of all humorless managers out there.

[whitesoxfan101]

I just hope Ozzie outlasts that cbssportline guy and Mariotti.

Mariotti wants towin the head to head battle with Ozzie obviously in pursuit

of a manager who will come in and be as boring as Jerry Manuel and Buddy

Bell and 95 percent of all humorless managers out there.

 

If you think Marriotti wants Ozzie gone, your crazy. Ozzie is a dream manager for him, he's never out of material for his column.

[greg775]

If you think Marriotti wants Ozzie gone, your crazy. Ozzie is a dream manager for him, he's never out of material for his column.

Normally I'd agree with you whitesoxfan, because he gives him great material,

but the way that last column was written, I sense a vendetta — a "I will force Ozzie

out of town and win this head-to=head pissing match with Ozzie."

 

That last column was ridiculous and to me at least seemed like he was trying

to put Ozzie away and win their little feud.

[whitesoxfan101]

Normally I'd agree with you whitesoxfan, because he gives him great material,

but the way that last column was written, I sense a vendetta — a "I will force Ozzie

out of town and win this head-to=head pissing match with Ozzie."

 

That last column was ridiculous and to me at least seemed like he was trying

to put Ozzie away and win their little feud.

 

I think it showed he dislikes Ozzie, however it moreso shows he wants to run Hawk out of town IMO.

[greg775]

Yeah, could be whitesoxfan.

I'd think the writers would back Ozzie big time because of what you said, all

the great stuff he gives them to write about.

 

I am intrigued by all the comments Mariotti has had from Oz in his columns.

Has he quietly started to go to games and interview or does he listen to postgame?

How does he get the Oz quotes in his columns??

Does anybody know? Steff?

[southsider2k5]

Just for arguement's sake...

 

-In the third game of the series, with the Tigers trailing only by one run, having scored two runs in the sixth inning, instead of running a guy like Zumaya out there to keep them close, Leyland runs Colby Lewis back out there, who promptly faces 3 batters and gets none out.

 

-To start the 4th and final game of the series, with the final result either being ahead by 5.5 or 7.5 games, he leaves on the bench Ivan Rodriguez, Omar Infante, and Marcus Thames, while starting Neifi Perez.

 

-Also in the key 4th game Leyland does not take his starting pitcher out multiple different times in the middle innings when he could have theoretically stopped the bleeding and tried to give the offense a chance to get back in it. Instead Robertson goes 6.2 innings and gives up 10 earned runs.

 

-Casey finished the game at first base after being thrown out first by Pablo Ozuna from left field because he was too busy throwing a temper tantrum and not paying attention to the fact that Joe Crede did NOT catch his line drive.

[kapkomet]

Thanks for pointing out that Leyand is the worst manager of the game, well, save Ozzie.