Thornton's master plan...

[EvilJester99]

Thornton's master plan

Sox reliever pitches goal: earning a spot in starting rotation

 

By Mark Gonzales

Tribune staff reporter

 

August 23, 2006, 10:27 PM CDT

 

 

DETROIT -- Matt Thornton has some unfinished business he wouldn't mind settling with the White Sox if asked.

 

Thornton said Wednesday he would welcome a chance to join the rotation as a starter."I would love to start again," said Thornton, who resurrected his career this season with the Sox as a reliever. "They're having a heck of a time getting [brandon] McCarthy in the rotation right now. He had a great career as a starter in the minors.

 

 

"That's something I don't worry about. If they came to me down the road to see if [i'd] want to start, I'd be more than willing. I'd love to."

 

Thornton, 29, was a starter in the Seattle organization until he reached the majors in 2004. After he walked seven in his only major-league start against the White Sox, the Mariners optioned him to Triple-A Tacoma to "get it figured out," he said.

 

"I threw about 28 innings [in the minors], struck out 35 and walked eight, but I never got a start in the majors again," Thornton said. "It blew my mind, especially with the way their starters struggled."

 

Thornton said he threw harder as a starter than as a reliever until this year "because my first inning was my worst as a starter, which is one of the reasons I struggled as a reliever. I had to settle in. You have to get a feel for things and work as you go, and the first inning was my rough inning."

 

Thornton said he noticed a significant difference in his velocity when he was sent back down as a starter.

 

"I would throw about 93 m.p.h. in the first inning but 96 or 97 by the fourth," he said.

 

Thornton's quick development enabled the Sox to option rookie Boone Logan to Triple A Charlotte in mid-May, with Thornton taking over the late-inning left-handed duties in place of struggling Neal Cotts.

 

Thornton, who had a 2.65 ERA in his last 38 games entering Wednesday night, has enjoyed his role as a reliever with the Sox with the likelihood he'll easily surpass last year's mark of 55 appearances.

[mmmmmbeeer]

As much as I'd like to see him rewarded for being a great reliever this season, turning around his past struggles, he's just too valuable in that role to move him into the rotation. Sucks for him, kind of a catch-22 for effective relievers with starting aspirations.

[Flash Tizzle]

I wouldn't mind if he attempted a ressurection of his starting role.

 

Why not? I hate how people are stuck upon certain mindsets pertaining to relievers and starters.

 

In my view, the goal is maximizing a players potential. Easy 97mph from the left side is practically irreplaceable, yes, but his overall statistics aren't. It's quite possible to obtain another bullpen arm next offseason from trading Garcia.

 

His throwing motion is one key indicator of mine arm troubles aren't inevitable. And let's be honest here -- we're not exactly stacked in the division of starting pitching prospects. Considering his salary, and how no high-end SP are available in our system, it'd ATLEAST be something I'd consider in several years. Perhaps in Spring Training try it out.

 

Problem I have -- and I recall suggesting something similar when Marte was thinking about a starters role -- is he needs more than two pitches. And with Thornton, opposed to Marte, he's more of a one pitch pitcher. Refine a slider (which at times has been devastating), find a decent changeup, I'd slot him in the rotation for 2008. His age doesn't help matters either.

Edited August 24, 2006 by Flash Tizzle

[beautox]

I wouldn't mind if he attempted a ressurection of his starting role.

 

Why not? I hate how people are stuck upon certain mindsets pertaining to relievers and starters.

 

In my view, the goal is maximizing a players potential. Easy 97mph from the left side is practically irreplaceable, yes, but his overall statistics aren't. It's quite possible to obtain another bullpen arm next offseason from trading Garcia.

 

His throwing motion is one key indicator of mine arm troubles aren't inevitable. And let's be honest here -- we're not exactly stacked in the division of starting pitching prospects. Considering his salary, and how no high-end SP are available in our system, it'd ATLEAST be something I'd consider in several years. Perhaps in Spring Training try it out.

 

Problem I have -- and I recall suggesting something similar when Marte was thinking about a starters role -- is he needs more than two pitches. And with Thornton, opposed to Marte, he's more of a one pitch pitcher. Refine a slider (which at times has been devastating), find a decent changeup, I'd slot him in the rotation for 2008. His age doesn't help matters either.

 

This Year No, In the future, id at least give it a shot, like you said flash its all about maximizing a players potential. If Angel Guzman once a SP prospect but injury led to him winding up in the cubs BP can turn it around and get into the cubs rotation(i know insert joke here), why not give Matt a chance in the near future? Your right he definatly needs to refine his slider, and find a decent change, but LHPs that throw an easy 98mph don't land in your lap often, and when they do, you need to get everything you can out of them.

 

Whats the ETA on Lance? could he be ready in '07 if we traded Vazquez + Garcia?

 

and heres to LTP and the M's organization for Matt

[Heads22]

He'll need to find a pitch or two.

[DBAHO]

He'll need to find a pitch or two.

Yeah he would.

 

And I mean we were talking about this for Neal Cotts a season or 2 ago. Finding good bullpen pieces is hard to do, I think it's more likely if we ever needed another starter, it would come from the minors or outside the organization.

[Flash Tizzle]

Whats the ETA on Lance? could he be ready in '07 if we traded Vazquez + Garcia?

 

and heres to LTP and the M's organization for Matt

In an interview Jason (or whomever) conducted in the minor league section, John Sickels believes he'll be up mid-season next year. I'd have to believe any such move would be because of injury/ineffectiveness to a starter, Broadway's complete domination of AAA, or as a bullpen arm. 2008 is probably his opportunity if everything continues fine with his development.

[Flash Tizzle]

And I mean we were talking about this for Neal Cotts a season or 2 ago. Finding good bullpen pieces is hard to do, I think it's more likely if we ever needed another starter, it would come from the minors or outside the organization.

What I believe hurts Cotts is his delivery -- too much arm motion. May be difficult to have enough tilt on a slider, or properly grip an offspeed pitch.

 

Finding good bullpen pieces is hard to do? Hell, compared to finding quality starting pitching it's simple.

 

I'd atleast hope for management to give him an opportunity to start in Spring Training. Who exactly does it hurt? f***, I'll print him up a list of pitches -- and how to properly grip them -- from the internet and give it to him. Take it with him on the mound. He already possesses a good fastball. You can't teach velocity. However, you can develop pitches.

 

Eh,who am I kidding? Guillen will immediately dismiss the idea. He just doesn't strike me as the kind of person who'd think outside of the proverbial box.

[DBAHO]

What I believe hurts Cotts is his delivery -- too much arm motion. May be difficult to have enough tilt on a slider, or properly grip an offspeed pitch.

 

Finding good bullpen pieces is hard to do? Hell, compared to finding quality starting pitching it's simple.

 

I'd atleast hope for management to give him an opportunity to start in Spring Training. Who exactly does it hurt? f***, I'll print him up a list of pitches -- and how to properly grip them -- from the internet and give it to him. Take it with him on the mound. He already possesses a good fastball. You can't teach velocity. However, you can develop pitches.

 

Eh,who am I kidding? Guillen will immediately dismiss the idea. He just doesn't strike me as the kind of person who'd think outside of the proverbial box.

Cotts' main issue has always been developing that off-speed pitch of his. He needs to get that sorted out ASAP, to get back to where he was last season.

 

As for finding bullpen pieces, remember the state of our pen at the start of the season. We had a rookie left hander, Thornton (who could have done anything), Politte who most people rightfully thought would be in for a downer this season etc.

 

We've been lucky to pick up Riske so cheaply, and getting MacDougall to bulk up the pen. But if you look at teams like Cleveland, they haven't been able to replace Howry, Riske and Rhodes from last season, and it's REALLY killed their chances this season of contending.

[BigSqwert]

This Year No

Of course this year is a no. If Brandon isn't stretched out this year to start why would Matt be?

 

As far as next year, I wouldn't mind it if he could add another pitch to his arsenal.

[whitesoxfan101]

I think it's easier to enjoy the legit stud hardthrowing lefty we have out of the pen than to worry about having him develop another couple pitches and go into the rotation. I know our rotation might need some arms, but I wouldn't screw with Thornton. He's a dominant lefty fastball/slider pen arm, and let's keep it that way.

[Flash Tizzle]

As for finding bullpen pieces, remember the state of our pen at the start of the season. We had a rookie left hander, Thornton (who could have done anything), Politte who most people rightfully thought would be in for a downer this season etc.

 

We've been lucky to pick up Riske so cheaply, and getting MacDougall to bulk up the pen. But if you look at teams like Cleveland, they haven't been able to replace Howry, Riske and Rhodes from last season, and it's REALLY killed their chances this season of contending.

I remember the state of our bullpen beginning of the year. You also make a good point about Cleveland.

 

But I look at the current state of our starting rotation, prices around the league for quality arms, and our weak minor league system. Giving Thornton an opportunity can't exactly be dismissed.

 

If Thornton is pitching 170 innings (intially), ERA ~ 4.50, and is paid around one million, relief pitching will have to be addressed later. Williams can overpay for a bullpen arm with all the money he'd be saving.

[SoxnGiants]

He'll have to get a changeup in his repertoire - and a good one - to be an effective starter. A slider would be a plus as well. I'm not against the idea really. Stretch him out over the offseason and have him work on adding pitches and give him a shot next spring. If he fails then so be it, he's back in the pen.

Edited August 24, 2006 by SoxnGiants

[Flash Tizzle]

I think it's easier to enjoy the legit stud hardthrowing lefty we have out of the pen than to worry about having him develop another couple pitches and go into the rotation. I know our rotation might need some arms, but I wouldn't screw with Thornton. He's a dominant lefty fastball/slider pen arm, and let's keep it that way.

I would 'screw with Thornton' every day if it meant having a consistent 93-95 mph arm pitching out of our rotation. Honestly, could working on secondary pitches really be expected to mess with him? He could work on it during the offseason, spring training. If it doesn't work, no harm, go back to pitching relief. But atleast give it a try.

 

I don't believe some of you realize how truly pathetic our minor league system is relating to starting pitchers. Not just Crazy Uncle Flash going on a senseless rant about our lack of a Liriano, here. We're literally waist deep in CRAP starting pitchers. It's an endless parade of mediocrity. If scrub minor league pitchers were a currency.......yeah, you get the idea. I could go on all day with these methaphors.

 

Chisox knows the truth. Heads as well. Dbaho knows it, but can't admit it. (Where's our Tyler Lumsden?) Who's projectable, honestly? Broadway........and then, who?. We don't have a Garza. We'll probably never have one with the current draft philosophy. I doubt --even with a 100million dollar payroll -- we're dishing out big money for top-of-the-rotation starters. You have a pitcher of Thornton's ability, and he's willing to start again, you HAVE to take the opportunity.

Edited August 24, 2006 by Flash Tizzle

[beautox]

Whats the haps on the craps Yo! MTV raps, with regards to Oneli Perez? someone care to enlighten me with what he throws and things of that nature?

[Felix]

I would 'screw with Thornton' every day if it meant having a consistent 93-95 mph arm pitching out of our rotation. Honestly, could working on secondary pitches really be expected to mess with him? He could work on it during the offseason, spring training. If it doesn't work, no harm, go back to pitching relief. But atleast give it a try.

 

I don't believe some of you realize how truly pathetic our minor league system is relating to starting pitchers. Not just Ol' Crazy Flash going on a senseless rant about our lack of a Liriano, here. We're literally waist deep in CRAP starting pitchers. It's an endless parade of mediocrity. If scrub minor league pitchers were a currency.......yeah, you get the idea. I could go on all day with these methaphors.

 

Chisox knows the truth. Heads as well. Dbaho knows it, but can't admit it. (Where's our Tyler Lumsden?) Who's projectable, honestly? Broadway........and then, who?. We don't have a Garza. We'll probably never have one with the current draft philosophy. I doubt --even with a 100million dollar payroll -- we're dishing out big money for top-of-the-rotation starters. You have a pitcher of Thornton's ability, and he's willing to start again, you HAVE to take the opportunity.

I'm just wondering, but why do you care so much about MPH? No matter how hard you throw, a fastball down the middle is still a fastball down the middle.

 

If you don't have any other plus pitches, then you aren't going to be a starter. However, you can be an effective setup man since opposing teams don't have to see you for 6 innings a night. Thornton will never be an effective starter for numerous reasons, including his control issues (which are still there, just lessened from his days in Seattle) and lack of more than one above average pitch.

 

Personally (and I know you strongly disagree), I'll take a pitcher who knows how to throw a strike with a variety of plus pitches, but 'only' throws 90 on his fastball, over a pitcher who throws 98 but has nothing else.

[southsideirish71]

If they could get him to learn a cut fastball, and a change like Buerhle's claw then he could go into the rotation without a problem. 93-95, with a few pitches makes for a nice starter.

[HuskyCaucasian]

He'll need to find a pitch or two.

97 MPH fastball......68 MPH Knuckleball

UNHITABLE!!

[beautox]

97 MPH fastball......68 MPH Knuckleball

UNHITABLE!!

 

[whitesoxfan101]

McDougal, remember, is an injury risk and Riske might not be back next season. I still think having Thornton in the bullpen is essential, having a back to back 98 MPH duo in the 8th and 9th (one lefty, one righty) is a rare asset. Plus, I just question if Thornton can start because he only has 2 pitches and for him to suddenly learn 2 more at age 26 is a lot to ask.

[Balta1701]

Here's the counterpoint to the "we can't afford to miss someone from our bullpen" argument.

 

1. If we had Matt Thornton in the starting rotation and he was succeeding at it, that gives us 2 starting pitchers to trade this offseason instead of one. Considering I can think of 3 who could possibly be moved, all of which except Javy should have considerable value to a trading partner, that would almost certainly allow us to pick up some pitching.

 

2. BOOOOOOOOOOONE. Seriously, if the kid could come around and show in the big leagues what he's done in AAA this year, he'd be our #2 Loogy right now. I liked what he showed when he was up in the spring in terms of "Stuff", he just didn't have the confidence to throw stuff for strikes and actually go after the hitters (thus getting behind on people, walking folks, and being forced to throw the fastball).

 

Here's my feeling on this whole question...if we're coming off of 2 straight world series wins, then I don't think you shake up the rotation at all. You don't risk a rookie LOOGY in the bullpen alongside a guy who's had a terrible year this year, you don't sell off veteran starters for young talent.

 

But if we get tossed out in the division series or we miss the playoffs this year, then I think it's time to look at serious changes, and if we get serious offers for Buehrle, Garcia, or Vazquez, offers which include more young pitching and/or young talent and/or help fill the 2 big holes we have in our lineup (LF and SS), then we have to be open to it.

 

Thornton in the rotation, Boone in the bullpen, and a studly young LF or SS may very well win us more games next year than Garcia/Vaz in the rotation, Uribe/Podsednik in the field, and Thornton in the bullpen. And it would certainly cost less.

[shawnhillegas]

I say we bring back Damaso!!!

[Balta1701]

I say we bring back Damaso!!!

If I could undo that trade right now, I would. And I guarantee you we'd win more games.

 

Not because I don't like Mack or because I want Marte back...but 100% solely because it would make it impossible for Mackowiak to start in CF.

[infohawk]

He'll have to get a changeup in his repertoire - and a good one - to be an effective starter. A slider would be a plus as well. I'm not against the idea really. Stretch him out over the offseason and have him work on adding pitches and give him a shot next spring. If he fails then so be it, he's back in the pen.

I think this is spot-on. What can it hurt to let him compete for a starting job in the spring? If he makes it he deserves it. If he doesn't, there was a better option and he contributes from the 'pen. I see it as a "win-win" situation.

[Felix]

If I could undo that trade right now, I would. And I guarantee you we'd win more games.

 

Not because I don't like Mack or because I want Marte back...but 100% solely because it would make it impossible for Mackowiak to start in CF.

So instead of Mack in CF, we'd see Pablo there more.

 

Seriously.