128 kids suspended in Hammond

[BobDylan]

Bob, with all due respect, I think you are missing the big picture. A big part of our educational system is things the kids learn that are not in text books. There are habits and skills that kids will learn in school that will benefit them after they leave school, that have zero to do with something on the SATs. Things like studying, homework, dress code, etc promote habits, lessons, and skills that begin to prepare kids for adulthood. A dress code is a great practice tool for the fact that 99% of workplaces don't want your ass hanging out while you are on their time, and there is a reason for that. It isn't because the principal is mean, or out of touch, or racist, or whatever. Proper dress for proper enviornment is a skill that kids should learn before they are 23 and their boss sends them home for having their cleavage hanging, or their gut hanging out over their low-riders at work. School isn't just about test scores, its about preparing kids for the real world.

 

I understand that. I also recognize that I should be hired by my qualifications, not by the shirt I wear. If you look at some of the richest people in the world, they got there by doing something different, not by conforming. If anyone would take a second and realize that difference is good (and it's a bit shocking that nobody wants to see it from this perspective as Chicago has a HUGE artist community, and not to mention one of the biggest art schools in the country, Columbia College -- a school that promotes difference and does a damn good job doing it) then perhaps the "real world" wouldn't be about "professionalism". Baseball players get contracts on account of how well they play baseball. This is the way it should be everywhere else.

[bmags]

I understand that. I also recognize that I should be hired by my qualifications, not by the shirt I wear. If you look at some of the richest people in the world, they got there by doing something different, not by conforming. If anyone would take a second and realize that difference is good (and it's a bit shocking that nobody wants to see it from this perspective as Chicago has a HUGE artist community, and not to mention one of the biggest art schools in the country, Columbia College -- a school that promotes difference and does a damn good job doing it) then perhaps the "real world" wouldn't be about "professionalism". Baseball players get contracts on account of how well they play baseball. This is the way it should be everywhere else.

 

when were you last in a high school, its an example in conformity in itself...might as well make the conformity on the schools terms. Kids are dumb anyways...but i hated high school, so my opinion could be skewed

[Steff]

I understand that. I also recognize that I should be hired by my qualifications, not by the shirt I wear. If you look at some of the richest people in the world, they got there by doing something different, not by conforming. If anyone would take a second and realize that difference is good (and it's a bit shocking that nobody wants to see it from this perspective as Chicago has a HUGE artist community, and not to mention one of the biggest art schools in the country, Columbia College -- a school that promotes difference and does a damn good job doing it) then perhaps the "real world" wouldn't be about "professionalism". Baseball players get contracts on account of how well they play baseball. This is the way it should be everywhere else.

 

 

And about 10 times out of 10, they are the boss. Become the boss, dress like a slob - and risk your professional career cause IMO you are hurting your credibility if you look like s***. Until then we all must follow rules.

 

And no one is saying difference is not good. They are saying dress how you want just as long as your ass is covered, your boobs are not hanging out, and profanity is not visable.

[BobDylan]

I think you're missing the point. It's not about how much their clothes cost. It's the design of them, how they are wearing them, and what is appropriate in the learning atmosphere. I'm guessing that the main issue here is that if classmates see someone walking around with their boxers hanging out they are talking about that and not concerned with learning.

 

I'm saying, which it has become apparent people are missing, that clothes don't make people smart. They don't prepare them for anything but the way other people expect things to be. Nobody should have to wear a suit to work if they don't want to. Getting the job done is the point of a job. That's the point I'm trying to get across. And if schools will promote CHANGE, then the way people dress will eventually be a non-factor. Sure if I want a job in a cubicle, chances are I'll have to dress in a suit and tie if I want that job. But if we start with the kids and teach them that appearance is moot, the word "professionalism" will have a whole new meaning, a meaning that is more fitting.

[southsider2k5]

I understand that. I also recognize that I should be hired by my qualifications, not by the shirt I wear. If you look at some of the richest people in the world, they got there by doing something different, not by conforming. If anyone would take a second and realize that difference is good (and it's a bit shocking that nobody wants to see it from this perspective as Chicago has a HUGE artist community, and not to mention one of the biggest art schools in the country, Columbia College -- a school that promotes difference and does a damn good job doing it) then perhaps the "real world" wouldn't be about "professionalism". Baseball players get contracts on account of how well they play baseball. This is the way it should be everywhere else.

 

It'd be nice and all of the world was really that way, but its not. There are a lot of things that should be, but the fact is they aren't. Using the example of an art school doesn't actually help much, because their enviornment's dress code is much different than 99% of kids are actually going to see in life. It also fails because for the example you are siting of an art school, proper dress dictates that you can where what you want at the next level. Like I sited a couple of days ago, in our accounting program you had to wear professional dress to class everyday, because that is what was appropriate. Then at the next level, Manchester accountants are highly sought after because employers know that they know their stuff, and how they will act in the work place, because they know they come with some basic knowledge.

 

The baseball analogy also fails when you see guys playing based on the size of their contracts, instead of on their output. Ask Brandon McCarthy if he thinks he is where he should be based on how well he plays baseball.

 

Hell I think a big part of the problems in this day and age is that we don't do enough to prepare kids for the real world. Things like social promotion, everybody gets a trophy, graduations ceremonies from every grade etc, paint an unrealistic view of what your asshole boss is going to be like when he wants something done.

[BobDylan]

when were you last in a high school, its an example in conformity in itself...might as well make the conformity on the schools terms. Kids are dumb anyways...but i hated high school, so my opinion could be skewed

 

3 years ago. The dress code was rarely enforced, but my school was basically a miniature college. You could take classes in fields you had interest in (and of course the ones you were forced to take, but I'm not saying that's a bad thing). And yes, kids are extremely stupid, but so are adults.

 

 

It'd be nice and all of the world was really that way, but its not. There are a lot of things that should be, but the fact is they aren't.

 

Then why the f*** do schools sit back and not work to change this?

[Steff]

I'm saying, which it has become apparent people are missing, that clothes don't make people smart. They don't prepare them for anything but the way other people expect things to be. Nobody should have to wear a suit to work if they don't want to. Getting the job done is the point of a job. That's the point I'm trying to get across. And if schools will promote CHANGE, then the way people dress will eventually be a non-factor. Sure if I want a job in a cubicle, chances are I'll have to dress in a suit and tie if I want that job. But if we start with the kids and teach them that appearance is moot, the word "professionalism" will have a whole new meaning, a meaning that is more fitting.

 

 

 

What you're missing is that these rules are there for a reason. Maybe you don't have an issue with your kid going to school and reading "f*** you" on a tshirt, or seeing Tom's ass crack, or Sue's boobs.. but I, and I would guess many others, do.

[BobDylan]

It'd be nice and all of the world was really that way, but its not. There are a lot of things that should be, but the fact is they aren't.

 

Then why the f*** do schools sit back and not work to change this?

Edited August 30, 2006 by BobDylan

[southsider2k5]

Then why the f*** do schools sit back and not work to change this?

 

Why is it schools role to change things? My philosophy is that is a schools role to prepare you for the next level of life. If life is going to dictate that you are going to dress in some degree of professionalness at the next level, why should school teach you otherwise? Why should it be upto schools to make social judgements on what is and what is not appropriate for kids to learn?

[BobDylan]

What you're missing is that these rules are there for a reason.

 

Reason? What reason?

[Steff]

Then why the f*** do schools sit back and not work to change this?

 

 

 

Uhh.. did you mean why don't the mommies and daddies and the kids themselves work to change this...?

[BobDylan]

Why is it schools role to change things? My philosophy is that is a schools role to prepare you for the next level of life. If life is going to dictate that you are going to dress in some degree of professionalness at the next level, why should school teach you otherwise? Why should it be upto schools to make social judgements on what is and what is not appropriate for kids to learn?

 

Don't you see that a dress code is a social judgment?

[Steff]

Reason? What reason?

 

 

 

So people's asses, boob's, and f*** you's are not a common site in school.

 

 

Did you even read the article that started this?

 

Don't you see that a dress code is a social judgment?

 

 

Oh hell...

 

You are kidding, right?

[BobDylan]

Uhh.. did you mean why don't the mommies and daddies and the kids themselves work to change this...?

 

Mom's and dad's can't do anything if a school won't promote change.

[Steff]

Mom's and dad's can't do anything if a school won't promote change.

 

 

 

Maybe if mommy and daddy taught their kid some self respect they wouldn't feel the need to "stand out" by showing their asses in public.

 

It all starts at home.

[BobDylan]

So people's asses, boob's, and f*** you's are not a common site in school.

Did you even read the article that started this?

Oh hell...

 

You are kidding, right?

 

Not even slightly. How is telling a kid how to dress not a social judgment?

[southsider2k5]

Don't you see that a dress code is a social judgment?

 

According to some science is a social judgement, are you saying we should stop teaching it as well? According to other English is a social judgement, because not everyone speaks it, or speaks it the way that we do, should we stop doing that as well? Even teaching art is a social judgement because how many people ever do anything with that in their lives? 99.9% of people could care less about it, but yet people still insist we teach it to keep kids well rounded? How far do you want to go with letting kids do whatever they want? Should kids like me who thought things like Art and Music were a complete waste of time in school be able to decide that we don't want to take them, just to be different?

[BobDylan]

According to some science is a social judgement, are you saying we should stop teaching it as well? According to other English is a social judgement, because not everyone speaks it, or speaks it the way that we do, should we stop doing that as well? Even teaching art is a social judgement because how many people ever do anything with that in their lives? 99.9% of people could care less about it, but yet people still insist we teach it to keep kids well rounded? How far do you want to go with letting kids do whatever they want? Should kids like me who thought things like Art and Music were a complete waste of time in school be able to decide that we don't want to take them, just to be different?

 

I grew up loving the arts. And I hope to make a living from the arts. In the arts, change is everything. I guess in the business world change is death?

 

Fact is, I hope I never have to wear a suit and tie to work.

 

And afterall, I can only imagine where art would be if it had the same social standards as the business world.

Edited August 30, 2006 by BobDylan

[southsider2k5]

I grew up loving the arts. And I hope to make a living from the arts. In the arts, change is everything. I guess in the business world change is death?

 

Fact is, I hope I never have to wear a suit and tie to work.

 

I would have never taken anykind of class like that if it were up to me. I hated art, music, philosophy... all of that. I didn't get it, I don't get it, and I never will. I would have taken all totally different classes than stuff if it were up to me. At 14 should I have been able to say "no" simply because I didn't like it? Should I have been able to be different than every student in my HS, and say "screw that" to the fine arts?

[mr_genius]

Should kids like me who thought things like Art and Music were a complete waste of time in school be able to decide that we don't want to take them, just to be different?

 

 

 

i don't see why not.

 

but you'd be missing out IMO

[BobDylan]

I would have never taken anykind of class like that if it were up to me. I hated art, music, philosophy... all of that. I didn't get it, I don't get it, and I never will. I would have taken all totally different classes than stuff if it were up to me. At 14 should I have been able to say "no" simply because I didn't like it? Should I have been able to be different than every student in my HS, and say "screw that" to the fine arts?

 

No, now you're skewing my words. Forcing kids to take classes "they don't want to take" is about the only thing the school system is getting right. It teaches them firstly, basic skills, and secondly, promotes difference. I hated math and science and that horrible accounting class I had to take, but at the same time I knew I was in there. If I don't try it, how do I know I won't like it?

 

As far as you hating art, it's quite obvious then why we have different view points here.

[NorthSideSox72]

My viewpoint on this has zero to do with art. Heck, I was big into music in high school.

 

But frankly, no, I don't think a dress code is a social judgement. I find it to be the exact opposite - its both protecting kids FROM judgement, and further, allowing judgement to occur on more important factors like learning and art and music and the matters at hand.

[BobDylan]

My viewpoint on this has zero to do with art. Heck, I was big into music in high school.

 

But frankly, no, I don't think a dress code is a social judgement. I find it to be the exact opposite - its both protecting kids FROM judgement, and further, allowing judgement to occur on more important factors like learning and art and music and the matters at hand.

 

So you're for the arts, but against judgment? That's ridiculous.

 

EDIT:

 

Perhaps I understood you wrong. You are saying judgment should occur in the classroom, but only in the classroom?

Edited August 30, 2006 by BobDylan

[Steff]

My viewpoint on this has zero to do with art. Heck, I was big into music in high school.

 

But frankly, no, I don't think a dress code is a social judgement. I find it to be the exact opposite - its both protecting kids FROM judgement, and further, allowing judgement to occur on more important factors like learning and art and music and the matters at hand.

 

 

 

Ditto.

 

So you're for the arts, but against judgment? That's ridiculous.

 

 

 

 

You misunderstood.

[southsider2k5]

No, now you're skewing my words. Forcing kids to take classes "they don't want to take" is about the only thing the school system is getting right. It teaches them firstly, basic skills, and secondly, promotes difference. I hated math and science and that horrible accounting class I had to take, but at the same time I knew I was in there. If I don't try it, how do I know I won't like it?

 

As far as you hating art, it's quite obvious then why we have different view points here.

 

Well taking that to the next logical step, why should we force kids to adhere to a basic dress code? Because it benefits them in the long run, just like teaching fine arts benefits kids in the long run. It teaches them what the expectations are for the great majority of them after school. I'd be willing to bet a vast majority more people will see a dress code in the future, vs using the fine arts in their future. Why should we spend time teaching skills to people that they will probably never use, while excluding things that they almost certianly will use? Using myself for fine arts, vs using your self for dress codes are two great examples of things that were complete wastes of time for what we want our lives to be. I have no problem with kids getting taught that kind of stuff, despite it being absolutely pointless for me, and for most people. But I also feel that learning how to dress properly for a situation is something that every kid should learn.