128 kids suspended in Hammond

[NorthSideSox72]

So you're for the arts, but against judgment? That's ridiculous.

 

EDIT:

 

Perhaps I understood you wrong. You are saying judgment should occur in the classroom, but only in the classroom?

I'm saying that by reducing (not removing, which is impossible) certain social judgements, like clothing (which you yourself say is bad), you allow judgement of all types, from educators and students, to be focused on those things you yourself say are more important. That is achieved by the dress code, and that is one of the major reasons (but not the only one) why they are a good thing.

[BobDylan]

Well taking that to the next logical step, why should we force kids to adhere to a basic dress code? Because it benefits them in the long run, just like teaching fine arts benefits kids in the long run. It teaches them what the expectations are for the great majority of them after school. I'd be willing to bet a vast majority more people will see a dress code in the future, vs using the fine arts in their future. Why should we spend time teaching skills to people that they will probably never use, while excluding things that they almost certianly will use? Using myself for fine arts, vs using your self for dress codes are two great examples of things that were complete wastes of time for what we want our lives to be. I have no problem with kids getting taught that kind of stuff, despite it being absolutely pointless for me, and for most people. But I also feel that learning how to dress properly for a situation is something that every kid should learn.

 

There are classes that do that. Or at least I had classes that taught me how and where to dress appropriately. If they want to teach the kids these type of skills, take it to the classroom. The way I dressed never had anything to do with my artistic abilities as I look to write novels, but seeing art unfold all around me every day, I see where the appearance of ones dress style does matter. I mean, can you imagine The Beatles if they were forced to get hair cuts, or ZZ Top if they were forced to shave, or Picasso if he were told to make something the "general public" could understand or my favorite, if Bob Dylan wrote how his critics told him to write?

 

A dress code is a disaster if you ask me. Teaching them how to dress in the classroom is not. They'll gain the knowledge (and likely in better detail and understanding) while allowing freedom of expression for those who may depend on it.

[southsider2k5]

There are classes that do that. Or at least I had classes that taught me how and where to dress appropriately. If they want to teach the kids these type of skills, take it to the classroom. The way I dressed never had anything to do with my artistic abilities as I look to write novels, but seeing art unfold all around me every day, I see where the appearance of ones dress style does matter. I mean, can you imagine The Beatles if they were forced to get hair cuts, or ZZ Top if they were forced to shave, or Picasso if he were told to make something the "general public" could understand or my favorite, if Bob Dylan wrote how his critics told him to write?

 

A dress code is a disaster if you ask me. Teaching them how to dress in the classroom is not. They'll gain the knowledge (and likely in better detail and understanding) while allowing freedom of expression for those who may depend on it.

 

Can you imagine if someone had been taught that I didn't have to wear what society told me to, and I couldn't find a person who would hire me because of it? What I had never been taught how to study, because there were no need for it if I worked as a bagger at Wal-Mart, so why should they force it on me? What if no one had ever instilled work ethic in me because you don't do homework as a trading floor liason?

 

There are certian basic expectations that 99.9% of people are going to have of you once you exit high school. I see it as a necesity to instill as many of these as possible into the kids for their graduation dates.

 

Out of curiousity, would anyone take my art seriously if I dressed for shows like a business professional?

[Texsox]

What we are talking about here is maintaining discipline and safety in the school. Eliminating gang colors and dress, telling kids not to show off their ass and breasts. Avoiding advertisements for illegal at that age products. Am I to take it seriously that Lennon would have been less of a songwriter if he couldn't wear a Miller Lite T-shirt, show off his ass crack, and wear a sombrero in class? GMAB

 

Can parents set limits, or would that destroy the next Picasso also? Suzy doesn't want to wear a bra and enjoys the freedom of expression that comes with exposing her nipples, I'd tell her to change, but I don't want to make a social judgement.

[BobDylan]

Can you imagine if someone had been taught that I didn't have to wear what society told me to, and I couldn't find a person who would hire me because of it? What I had never been taught how to study, because there were no need for it if I worked as a bagger at Wal-Mart, so why should they force it on me? What if no one had ever instilled work ethic in me because you don't do homework as a trading floor liason?

 

There are certian basic expectations that 99.9% of people are going to have of you once you exit high school. I see it as a necesity to instill as many of these as possible into the kids for their graduation dates.

 

Out of curiousity, would anyone take my art seriously if I dressed for shows like a business professional?

 

Well, the problem in my field is that there is very little to be taught. Most is up for open interpretation.

 

As far as dressing like a business professional in the arts, it depends what kind of art. If it's music, you might get some attention (I think there are bands that already do it, however). I know Clinic dresses in O.R. scrubs. I know Buckethead wears a bucket over his head (go figure). The Vines wear white suits. Red Hot Chili Peppers wear socks over their penis's. Generally it's just a gimmick and the music is what counts, but for the musicians it can mean a lot. It's kind of like how I can write in only one space in my apartment. It's all about being comfortable out there.

 

What we are talking about here is maintaining discipline and safety in the school. Eliminating gang colors and dress, telling kids not to show off their ass and breasts. Avoiding advertisements for illegal at that age products. Am I to take it seriously that Lennon would have been less of a songwriter if he couldn't wear a Miller Lite T-shirt, show off his ass crack, and wear a sombrero in class? GMAB

 

Artists are bizarre people. It's extremely difficult, even for themselves, to say what makes them tick. Certainly the t-shirt he wears could have made a big difference.

[southsideirish71]

Well, the problem in my field is that there is very little to be taught. Most is up for open interpretation.

 

As far as dressing like a business professional in the arts, it depends what kind of art. If it's music, you might get some attention (I think there are bands that already do it, however). I know Clinic dresses in O.R. scrubs. I know Buckethead wears a bucket over his head (go figure). The Vines wear white suits. Red Hot Chili Peppers wear socks over their penis's. Generally it's just a gimmick and the music is what counts, but for the musicians it can mean a lot. It's kind of like how I can write in only one space in my apartment. It's all about being comfortable out there.

Artists are bizarre people. It's extremely difficult, even for themselves, to say what makes them tick. Certainly the t-shirt he wears could have made a big difference.

 

 

I guess artists dont go to catholic or private schools then. Because they are forced to wear uniforms or have a dress code. But then again I graduated with a guy who was an artist. Maybe he is just a bad one then, because he went to a catholic school.

[Queen Prawn]

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

 

Brian and myself did as well. He still has to wear a uniform (which I am grateful for as the ink, starch and grease really screw up clothes and are a b**** to get out).

[BobDylan]

I guess artists dont go to catholic or private schools then. Because they are forced to wear uniforms or have a dress code. But then again I graduated with a guy who was an artist. Maybe he is just a bad one then, because he went to a catholic school.

 

Sigh...

 

As if ANYWHERE I said a person can't be an artist under bull s*** rules.

 

I was only saying that freedom of expression can help an artist. No school can make a person an artist just as no school can make somebody a business (wo)man. In the end, that's all up to the induvidual.

[southsider2k5]

Well, the problem in my field is that there is very little to be taught. Most is up for open interpretation.

 

And that in a nutshell is why I hated the fine arts. It just was 180 degrees of everything that is me. I got way more out of rules that told me how to dress in high school, than I did out of any of those classes combined. I like answers, I hate gray. Philosophy was an excrucitaingly miserable class for me because of that fact. If I ask a question, I want an answer, not another question. To me a painting is a painting, there is no deeper meaning, I don't get it, and I don't pretend to do so. No art class ever did a bit of good for me in that respect.

 

Now what if my idea for change and rebellion was that kids shouldn't waste their time with that intangible stuff, and instead they should concentrate on stuff they can use in the future? What if I feel that forcing kids to take fine arts is facist, and controling their lives unfairly, because they can't express freely themselves by taking someone cool like Economics or Finance? Guess what, I would be taking away from the education of someone else. For someone else that dress code is a vital lesson that they need in life, just like music could be the key to your life.

[BobDylan]

And that in a nutshell is why I hated the fine arts. It just was 180 degrees of everything that is me. I got way more out of rules that told me how to dress in high school, than I did out of any of those classes combined. I like answers, I hate gray. Philosophy was an excrucitaingly miserable class for me because of that fact. If I ask a question, I want an answer, not another question. To me a painting is a painting, there is no deeper meaning, I don't get it, and I don't pretend to do so. No art class ever did a bit of good for me in that respect.

 

Now what if my idea for change and rebellion was that kids shouldn't waste their time with that intangible stuff, and instead they should concentrate on stuff they can use in the future? What if I feel that forcing kids to take fine arts is facist, and controling their lives unfairly, because they can't express freely themselves by taking someone cool like Economics or Finance? Guess what, I would be taking away from the education of someone else. For someone else that dress code is a vital lesson that they need in life, just like music could be the key to your life.

 

If it's vital, they should go to a private school. And like I said, these things need to be taken to the classroom. I don't think it's right to make EVERYONE join in these rules if it's not a big problem. Obviously if a girls nipples are hanging out or if a guys ass it staring everyone in the face something needs to be done. But that is rarely the case (or at least it wasn't at my school). Sure some skirts were risky and I could see a lot of guys underwear, but if I couldn't see their privates I didn't think it was an issue. Maybe somebody looks bad if their underwear is clear as day, but honestly, where is the harm?

 

There was a certain point in my high school career where I didn't need to take art classes. I believe I only needed 1 credit. After that, whether I wanted to take more or not was up to me. Since I liked it, I took more. (Once the school ran out of art classes to take, you could do independant study and it was basically you and the teacher concentrating on where your interests peak. It was something I did and something I enjoyed.)

 

And the fact is that school is a grey matter. There is no telling what is best for the kids. There are opinions and theories, but who is anybody to say what is best? I hate finance and once I finished off those credits I never touched them again. I had friends that continued on with those classes just as I had friends that continued on with the arts.

 

If dressing clean was what was going to be best for me, I'd have done it. Since it isn't, what should I care?

[southsider2k5]

If it's vital, they should go to a private school. And like I said, these things need to be taken to the classroom. I don't think it's right to make EVERYONE join in these rules if it's not a big problem. Obviously if a girls nipples are hanging out or if a guys ass it staring everyone in the face something needs to be done. But that is rarely the case (or at least it wasn't at my school). Sure some skirts were risky and I could see a lot of guys underwear, but if I couldn't see their privates I didn't think it was an issue. Maybe somebody looks bad if their underwear is clear as day, but honestly, where is the harm?

 

There was a certain point in my high school career where I didn't need to take art classes. I believe I only needed 1 credit. After that, whether I wanted to take more or not was up to me. Since I liked it, I took more. (Once the school ran out of art classes to take, you could do independant study and it was basically you and the teacher concentrating on where your interests peak. It was something I did and something I enjoyed.)

 

And the fact is that school is a grey matter. There is no telling what is best for the kids. There are opinions and theories, but who is anybody to say what is best? I hate finance and once I finished off those credits I never touched them again. I had friends that continued on with those classes just as I had friends that continued on with the arts.

 

If dressing clean was what was going to be best for me, I'd have done it. Since it isn't, what should I care?

 

So why don't fine art kids go to a different school? Like I said more kids end up needing a dress code, than using fine arts in their professions. Why is it wrong to force kids to follow a dress code, but OK to force them to take classes most will never use again? I don't get how one thing is so vital, yet the other is pointless?

[BobDylan]

So why don't fine art kids go to a different school? Like I said more kids end up needing a dress code, than using fine arts in their professions. Why is it wrong to force kids to follow a dress code, but OK to force them to take classes most will never use again? I don't get how one thing is so vital, yet the other is pointless?

 

Well, there are no fine art schools around where I grew up. Not until I got to college.

 

Why shouldn't I be forced to take an accounting class? I have to learn how to do my taxes, don't I? Most of the classes I was forced to take were intro classes. If I had interest in the field, I could go on to the advanced classes.

 

Also, when you talk about a huge high school like the one I was at, the number of art students to business students was about 50/50. Obviously these numbers are inaccurate, but I'm not taking account for the kids that didn't want to do anything.

Edited August 30, 2006 by BobDylan

[southsider2k5]

Well, there are no fine art schools around where I grew up. Not until I got to college.

 

Why shouldn't I be forced to take an accounting class? I have to learn how to do my taxes, don't I? Most of the classes I was forced to take were intro classes. If I had interest in the field, I could go on to the advanced classes.

 

Also, when you talk about a huge high school like the one I was at, the number of art students to business students was about 50/50. Obviously these numbers are inaccurate, but I'm not taking account for the kids that didn't want to do anything.

 

You're arguing that with the wrong guy. I think the more you can teach at the HS level, the better. I think the more knowledge both in and out of the classroom you can give kids, the better. Whether we are talking about art, accounting, dress, social interaction skills, study ability, the desire to learn, economics, respect for authority or whatever. I see no problem giving kids a fully encompasing backround.

 

I went to a school where the art/music department has been on the chopping block for at least 15 years because of a complete lack of enrollment in it. They had to fight during the last teachers contract to keep the art teachers, and one band director and stop them from eliminating the programs totally because the quantitative accountants can't justify the classes.

[Iwritecode]

Am I the only one that never had to take a single art or music class after 6th grade? I took shop, drafting, Spanish, computer and business classes as my electives. Everything else was filled in by the basic stuff that everyone had to take. Math, science, english, gym, etc...

 

 

About dress codes, there are many companies out there that have some of the most satisfied employees simply because they don't have have a dress code or even a set schedule. There are even some places that have rec rooms in the building for the employees with video games and basketball courts. Some allow them to bring their pets to work with them.

 

My company has a fairly loose dress code, any shirt with a collar and dress pants. I set in the basement in a cubicle and nobody ever sees me. I'm pretty sure if I came in wearing jeans and a t-shirt (which is allowed on Friday) I'd get the exact same amount of work done...

 

Why shouldn't I be forced to take an accounting class? I have to learn how to do my taxes, don't I?

 

Actually no, not really. That's what TurboTax is for. I've never taken an accounting class in my life.

 

To tell you the truth, a good 80% of the classes I've taken in high school and even college I've never used and probaby never will. 3 years of Spanish and I barely remember any of it. Haven't figured out a good use for the Trig or algebra classes I took. I took electricity 1 & 2 but the most I've ever done is change an outlet or two in my house...

[bmags]

Am I the only one that never had to take a single art or music class after 6th grade? I took shop, drafting, Spanish, computer and business classes as my electives. Everything else was filled in by the basic stuff that everyone had to take. Math, science, english, gym, etc...

About dress codes, there are many companies out there that have some of the most satisfied employees simply because they don't have have a dress code or even a set schedule. There are even some places that have rec rooms in the building for the employees with video games and basketball courts. Some allow them to bring their pets to work with them.

 

My company has a fairly loose dress code, any shirt with a collar and dress pants. I set in the basement in a cubicle and nobody ever sees me. I'm pretty sure if I came in wearing jeans and a t-shirt (which is allowed on Friday) I'd get the exact same amount of work done...

Actually no, not really. That's what TurboTax is for. I've never taken an accounting class in my life.

 

To tell you the truth, a good 80% of the classes I've taken in high school and even college I've never used and probaby never will. 3 years of Spanish and I barely remember any of it. Haven't figured out a good use for the Trig or algebra classes I took. I took electricity 1 & 2 but the most I've ever done is change an outlet or two in my house...

 

accounting formulas are usually taught in stat and calc classes anyways.

[Steff]

accounting formulas are usually taught in stat and calc classes anyways.

 

 

 

Calc was not a standard class when I was in HS. Is it now? Anything beyond algebra 1 and geom were not required. I had to apply to Calc and Trig and it was only for honor students. I did not have an actual accounting class until I got to college.

[bmags]

oh yeah you're right. i learned it in business classes too.... 4classes had accounting formulas...anyways i think math should be required for 3 years i don't care what any kids whine about.

[Queen Prawn]

Calc was not a standard class when I was in HS. Is it now? Anything beyond algebra 1 and geom were not required. I had to apply to Calc and Trig and it was only for honor students. I did not have an actual accounting class until I got to college.

 

I had music in HS and I took Calc in my senior year. At Maria, if you were in the college-bound curriculum, Ialc was a must. Otherwise, you had to take a 4th year math (I think) but it was up to you which one you want to take (algebra I and II as well as geometry were mandatory).

[Steff]

I had music in HS and I took Calc in my senior year. At Maria, if you were in the college-bound curriculum, Ialc was a must. Otherwise, you had to take a 4th year math (I think) but it was up to you which one you want to take (algebra I and II as well as geometry were mandatory).

 

 

Now that I am thinking about it, I think Alg 2 may have been required also. I was in the AP program so I was all messed up. I had music also.

 

oh yeah you're right. i learned it in business classes too.... 4classes had accounting formulas...anyways i think math should be required for 3 years i don't care what any kids whine about.

 

 

 

I don't see why it can't be required all 4 years

[Queen Prawn]

I was is in honors and took 4 (two per semester) college courses at Maria so I hear ya about not exactly remembering the requirements. Either that or this 30 thing is coming fast and furious (c'mon age, I have a few months left of my 20s let me enjoy it lol).

[Steff]

I was is in honors and took 4 (two per semester) college courses at Maria so I hear ya about not exactly remembering the requirements. Either that or this 30 thing is coming fast and furious (c'mon age, I have a few months left of my 20s let me enjoy it lol).

 

 

Oh, it's all downhill after 30. 2 years in and becomming a grama has solidified my place in the "hag HOF".

[southsider2k5]

Oh, it's all downhill after 30. 2 years in and becomming a grama has solidified my place in the "hag HOF".

 

Wait until you have your own, they you really get to feel old

[Iwritecode]

Calc was not a standard class when I was in HS. Is it now? Anything beyond algebra 1 and geom were not required. I had to apply to Calc and Trig and it was only for honor students. I did not have an actual accounting class until I got to college.

 

Calc and Trig were only "required" for me because there weren't any other classes that interested me and I had to get my credits somehow. IIRC, by the time I was a senior in HS I had 2 classes that were actually required. Gym and Government. The rest were electives.

 

accounting formulas are usually taught in stat and calc classes anyways.

 

Never took a stats class. If they were taught in calc I don't remember them.

[bmags]

Now that I am thinking about it, I think Alg 2 may have been required also. I was in the AP program so I was all messed up. I had music also.

I don't see why it can't be required all 4 years

 

me neither... and i totally agree. 4 years of required phys ed and 2 of math shows where the priorities are. And i agree with the 4 years of phys ed considering the weight problem.

[Texsox]

Just askin', if a parent is doing the homework for their child, so that child can keep earnin' As, does the parent have to be in uniform? Not that I a thinking of anyone in particular.