Tigers call up #1 pick

[Flash Tizzle]

Ok 5 years from now a future rotation of;

 

Garland

Buehrle

McCarthy

Broadway

FA or McCullough

 

You could swap Buehrle with a FA as well.

I realize these are merely your projections, but if reality were to mirror this rotation five years from now, we're in trouble. Still won't match up against Detroit or Minnesota. Need to do better than this. Even though Santana will likely be gone (no way in hell he's signing under market value again), Liriano and Garza are a formidable 1/2. Detroit would still have Miller/Verlander/Sanchez.

 

One problem, I doubt we'll sign Garland to another extension beyond the current 3 year/29 million dollar deal. If he's producing at the end of the contract, I guarantee Garland is seeking another long-term deal beyond the figures of 29/3. Considering his age around the date of the current deals completion (29/30), he may believe there's one last big-payday remaining. I'm not paying an inflated price for Garland unless he's pitching second half numbers, or 2005 totals, over an entire season. Again. Still several years to assess his true value, though.

 

Buehrle? The remainder of this season and next year will determine his future. Pitch anywhere similar to June/July and he can waste someone elses money.

 

You know, it'd be really easy if someone merely overpaid for Garcia next offseason. Gave us their best pitching prospect. Some other team always seems to be the benefit of these deals, but never us. Where's the psuedo Kenny Williams willing to overpay out there?

Edited September 1, 2006 by Flash Tizzle

[DBAHO]

You know, it'd be really easy if someone merely overpaid for Garcia next offseason. Gave us their best pitching prospect. Some other team always seems to be the benefit of these deals, but never us. Where's the psuedo Kenny Williams willing to overpay out there?

We've been having discussions in a couple of threads about a Pods + Garcia + prospect for Jake Peavy type of deal.

 

I doubt Kevin Towers would go for it, but it's definitely worth doing from our end. Otherwise you could simply trade Garcia for say Matt Bush and Cesar Carillo (possibly more wishful thinking from me).

 

But Garcia still has trade value, and teams might bank on him rebounding next season and getting his velocity back. The WBC did him no good and a lot of other pitchers as well.

[Balta1701]

I realize these are merely your projections, but if reality were to mirror this rotation five years from now, we're in trouble. Still won't match up against Detroit or Minnesota. Need to do better than this. Even though Santana will likely be gone (no way in hell he's signing under market value again), Liriano and Garza are a formidable 1/2. Detroit would still have Miller/Verlander/Sanchez.

You're assuming that they all stay healthy and have absolutely no dropoffs. I'll almost guarantee you that at least 1, if not more than 1 of those pitchers will wind up having some sort of injury problem that plagues his career and ruins his potential. It's just way too common.

[Rowand44]

Liriano and Garza are a formidable 1/2. Detroit would still have Miller/Verlander/Sanchez.

Out of the guys you mentioned, two have proven they can succeed in the majors and there is a good shot that Liriano could have a lot of trouble with injuries. To say Liriano and Garza are a formidable 1/2 is kind of crazy imo. Yes, Liriano will be an ace IF he stays healthy, I wouldn't bet on Garza though.

Edited September 1, 2006 by Rowand44

[witesoxfan]

Out of the guys you mentioned, two have proven they can succeed in the majors and there is a good shot that Liriano could have a lot of trouble with injuries. To say Liriano and Garza are a formidable 1/2 is kind of crazy imo. Yes, Liriano will be an ace IF he stays healthy, I wouldn't bet on Garza though.

 

From what I have seen of Garza, if he doesn't have ace potential, it is really goddamn close. A fastball near 94-97, along with a very good curve and an adequate change...that's pretty much the mold for every Twins pitcher in their organization(not being fastball-curve-change...having a plus fastball, a great secondary pitch, and an adequate to good third pitch)

 

Seriously, if the Sox want to continue to be successful, they must start developing arms. If Broadway and McCulloch are only gonna be #4-5's, the Sox are in deep s***, because Minnesota and Detroit don't seem to want to develop #4-5's, they want to develop great pitchers with #1-2 stuff and abilities. With that comes injuries, but if you can successfully develop enough of them(4-5 out of something around 40-50), and can plug some other fillers in when necessary(such as a Bonser, Baker, Silva, Robertson, Maroth, or Miner), you are gonna be good for a long friggin time.

[GoodAsGould]

The Twins are just 5 steps ahead of every other team in the MLB... its really unfair to compare us to them. Because every other team maybe besides the Marlins are probably jealous of the Twins farm system, scouting, and prospects.

 

As for the Tigers... thats what happens when your a consistent loser. They traded for Bonderman like its been mentioned. Miller and Verlander were both top picks in the draft we had no way of getting. So the lone guy that they didnt get from a top5-6 pick and really can take credit for is Humberto Sanchez... I guess Joel Zumaya too but everyone else was a top pick from their system in which they were way ahead of us in.

 

 

So if you dont want to have a winning season for over 10 seasons and trade away our current good players for possible future young studs than maybe we can be just like the Tigers in the year 2016.

 

 

And if your complaining we arent as good as the Twins in scouting... so are 28-29 other teams as well.....

[witesoxfan]

The Twins are just 5 steps ahead of every other team in the MLB... its really unfair to compare us to them. Because every other team maybe besides the Marlins are probably jealous of the Twins farm system, scouting, and prospects.

 

As for the Tigers... thats what happens when your a consistent loser. They traded for Bonderman like its been mentioned. Miller and Verlander were both top picks in the draft we had no way of getting. So the lone guy that they didnt get from a top5-6 pick and really can take credit for is Humberto Sanchez... I guess Joel Zumaya too but everyone else was a top pick from their system in which they were way ahead of us in.

So if you dont want to have a winning season for over 10 seasons and trade away our current good players for possible future young studs than maybe we can be just like the Tigers in the year 2016.

And if your complaining we arent as good as the Twins in scouting... so are 28-29 other teams as well.....

 

You're right, the Twins and Tigers aren't alike at all; the Twins have good scouting, whereas the Tigers just sucked for a long time , lucked out, and got the talent because of it.

 

Orrrrr they were both friggin terrible in the 90s for forever, and both have good farm systems because of good scouting and not because of top picks. If it were because of top picks, why has KC had like 1 (lucky) winning season in about the past 8-10 years? Why hasn't Pittsburgh done s*** in forever?

 

The Tigers traded for Bonderman; the Twins traded for Santana AND Liriano. I don't see the difference.

 

I also just see 2 guys in the Tigers system we could not have gotten: Verlander, who's amazing, and Miller, who hasn't proven s*** in the major league level. What's our scouting doing? Why didn't we find Bonderman, Zumaya, Sanchez, or others?

 

It's a legitamate question, and I haven't heard a good enough excuse yet.

[GoodAsGould]

Why didnt 29 other teams find Zumaya or Sanchez? Hell why didnt other teams find Rich Harden he didnt go till something like the 17th round too right? And Bonderman was a 1st rounder too that they traded for... it wasnt about us finding him. They also got Carlos Pena in that deal as well right so they must of gave up something pretty big.

 

And we also did trade for a top SP prospect and he is in our current rotation... right now he is the ace of our staff.

[Kalapse]

In a three-way deal; the Oakland Athletics traded Carlos Pena, Franklyn German and a player to be named later (Jeremy Bonderman - Aug 22nd) to the Detroit Tigers, the Tigers traded Jeff Weaver to the New York Yankees, the Yankees traded Ted Lilly, Jason Arnold and John-Ford Griffin to the Athletics.

 

Bonderman was taken 26th overall in 2001 by the Oakland Athletics.

[Rowand44]

From what I have seen of Garza, if he doesn't have ace potential, it is really goddamn close. A fastball near 94-97, along with a very good curve and an adequate change...that's pretty much the mold for every Twins pitcher in their organization(not being fastball-curve-change...having a plus fastball, a great secondary pitch, and an adequate to good third pitch)

I've seen him pitch and like I said, I wouldn't bet on him being an ace.

[GoodAsGould]

at the time of the trade Jeff Weaver was still pretty highly thought of....

[loltrain]

I think you overrate the Tigers farm system massively, we have excellent pitching prospects (I might rate Jair Jurjjens ahead of Sanchez due to Sanchez massive injury history) but position player wise the cupboard is pretty bare, Maybin and...err...well Maybin.

 

Imo the Twins are pretty similar with great pitching but not much position wise, I would definitely trade the Tigers position prospects for Fields, Sweeney etc

[Rowand44]

I think you overrate the Tigers farm system massively, we have excellent pitching prospects (I might rate Jair Jurjjens ahead of Sanchez due to Sanchez massive injury history) but position player wise the cupboard is pretty bare, Maybin and...err...well Maybin.

 

Imo the Twins are pretty similar with great pitching but not much position wise, I would definitely trade the Tigers position prospects for Fields, Sweeney etc

We'll trade farm systems with you guys.

[Flash Tizzle]

The Twins are just 5 steps ahead of every other team in the MLB... its really unfair to compare us to them.

 

Because every other team maybe besides the Marlins are probably jealous of the Twins farm system, scouting, and prospects.

 

And if your complaining we arent as good as the Twins in scouting... so are 28-29 other teams as well.....

29 other teams don't have this misfortune of facing Minnesota 18 times a season. They're in our division, thus, it'll remain a comparison until we improve. And you better believe I'll be there every step of the way citing Minnesota's pitchers (among others within our division) and comparing them to ours.

 

I absolutely hate this shoulder shrugging, defeatist attitude. Too bad for us if we're not willing to drastically revamp and update whichever dated methods used to evaluate players. As I've mentioned on numerous occasions, we're going to need VAST improvements from our system within the next 5-7 years for any chance of competing. Minnesota and Detroit's pitching is far superior to ours, and won't be going anywhere anytime soon.

 

What I don't understand is how we're willing to assemble an entire team after Minnesota's pitching/defense philosophy, yet we're not willing to mimmick their scouting patterns? What, are we somehow above that? Is there some secret locked within a safe on which qualities they look for in pitchers? Or position players?

Edited September 2, 2006 by Flash Tizzle

[DBAHO]

29 other teams don't have this misfortune of facing Minnesota 18 times a season. They're in our division, thus, it'll remain a comparison until we improve. And you better believe I'll be there every step of the way citing Minnesota's pitchers (among others within our division) and comparing them to ours.

 

I absolutely hate this shoulder shrugging, defeatist attitude. Too bad for us if we're not willing to drastically revamp and update whichever dated methods used to evaluate players. As I've mentioned on numerous occasions, we're going to need VAST improvements from our system within the next 5-7 years for any chance of competing. Minnesota and Detroit's pitching is far superior to ours, and won't be going anywhere anytime soon.

 

What I don't understand is how we're willing to assemble an entire team after Minnesota's pitching/defense philosophy, yet we're not willing to mimmick their scouting patterns? What, are we somehow above that? Is there some secret locked within a safe on which qualities they look for in pitchers? Or position players?

Except those in our division.

[Flash Tizzle]

Except those in our division.

Sorry, 26.

 

No other counterpoints? I'm shocked, Dbaho.

[DBAHO]

Sorry, 26.

 

No other counterpoints? I'm shocked, Dbaho.

C'mon Flash, it's late, I'm tired, alright what can I come up with here?

 

if we're not willing to drastically revamp and update whichever dated methods used to evaluate players.

Well on the minor league level this can possibly be argued, but I would only do it for our pitching prospects. We've got Anderson who has come in, Fields has torn up AAA, and Sweeney has really raised his stock this season,

 

On the major league level guys like Crede have improved, while the Sox brought have brought in the likes of Jermaine Dye for a lot cheaper than Maggs.

 

So how are we going to develop pitching. Well the Sox have actually had some good prospects that aren't with the organization now in Gonzalez, Lumsden etc. So I think they've shown with the vast majority of their earlier picks in the past few seasons that those guys are doing a fairly solid job. Guys like Whisler are finding their feet in AA etc.

 

we're not willing to mimmick their scouting patterns?

Well Minny aren't exactly going to go over to their main rival and say "Hey, this is how we drafted Matt Garza at pick #25, and this is why you should have picked them there instead of Broadway". Why are they doing such a great job at it? I dunno, do they have more scouts, better scouts, or more scouts all over the world, and are actually willing to spend money on more prospects than we are? I think the latter point is something we need to address over the next 5-10 seasons, especially in the Latin America Region.

[southsideirish71]

past few seasons that those guys are doing a fairly solid job. Guys like Whisler are finding their feet in AA etc.

Well Minny aren't exactly going to go over to their main rival and say "Hey, this is how we drafted Matt Garza at pick #25, and this is why you should have picked them there instead of Broadway". Why are they doing such a great job at it? I dunno, do they have more scouts, better scouts, or more scouts all over the world, and are actually willing to spend money on more prospects than we are? I think the latter point is something we need to address over the next 5-10 seasons, especially in the Latin America Region.

 

 

To be honest when Garza was drafted the exact comment out of Flash's mouth was now here is another hard thrower that will dominate us for the next bunch of seasons.

 

I wish we would stop drafting the same type of pitcher, and take a chance on someone with plus stuff that can be at the top of the rotation instead of guys who project to be 4 or 5 starters.

 

With our park and how it plays we need to seriously start drafting 2 types of guys. Either guys with plus stuff who can strikeout major league hitters, or guys with a heavy sinker. Picking up flyball guys who are in the low 90s/high 80s who pitch to contact is not the way to go.

 

And for all those with such Broadway love, take a gander at Felix Diaz and how he absolutely dominated AAA pitching. Then he and his medicore fastball met up with the Indians. And they pounded him into the 5th level of hell. Contact pitchers when they lose control get absolutely rocked. Guys who have a 97 mph fastball can make mistakes from time to time that may not get hit as hard as the guy who makes a mistake in the zone with a 91 mph straight as an arrow fastball.

[GoodAsGould]

Well lets no condemn Broadway for being nothing but a 4-5th pitcher until we actually seen him in the bigs....And until the Twins release some kind of moneyball book we dont know what they value in prospects and how they always find studs. Actually havent they been pretty bad drafting in the first round though besides Matt Garza?

[Balta1701]

Why didnt 29 other teams find Zumaya or Sanchez? Hell why didnt other teams find Rich Harden he didnt go till something like the 17th round too right? And Bonderman was a 1st rounder too that they traded for... it wasnt about us finding him. They also got Carlos Pena in that deal as well right so they must of gave up something pretty big.

 

And we also did trade for a top SP prospect and he is in our current rotation... right now he is the ace of our staff.

Why didn't 29 other teams find a 38th round pick left hander who is now 1/1 in saves in the world series? Why didn't 29 other teams find a 17th round pick with a 94 mph fastball and a freaking dominant changeup?

 

We've gotten some steals of our own too. Shame we didn't draft that Pujols guy instead of Rogowski though.

[GoodAsGould]

Why didn't 29 other teams find a 38th round pick left hander who is now 1/1 in saves in the world series? Why didn't 29 other teams find a 17th round pick with a 94 mph fastball and a freaking dominant changeup?

 

We've gotten some steals of our own too. Shame we didn't draft that Pujols guy instead of Rogowski though.

 

Idonno if you were backing me up or misinterpreted what i was saying but yeah... some people are ridiculous about minorleaguers...

[Phuck the Cubs]

With a couple of good moves the Cubs might be pretty formidable next season... but 2 things have to happen. Derek Lee has to be healthy and Mark Prior has to be able to come back for good. I have a little more faith in Prior returning than I do with Wood.

Sorry, buddy. The Cubs are going to suck miserably in 2007. They will pretend to go after Soriano, Carlos Lee, Zito, and Schmidt to maintain public relations. They won't get them. Hendry will say he went after them and give his typical, "I feel short" crap. :fthecubs :fthecubs :fthecubs :fthecubs :fthecubs

[Rowand44]

Sorry, buddy. The Cubs are going to suck miserably in 2007. They will pretend to go after Soriano, Carlos Lee, Zito, and Schmidt to maintain public relations. They won't get them. Hendry will say he went after them and give his typical, "I feel short" crap. :fthecubs :fthecubs :fthecubs :fthecubs :fthecubs

hehe

[loltrain]

Also to answer some questions, the reason noone 'found' Zumaya before us is that he threw a good 5-8 mph less than he does now when we drafted him, we just got a break that he added velocity as he filled out and has (so far) avoided any injuries.

[JackTalkThai]

Miller is pitching for Detroit tonight in the 5th inning with the game tied 3-3. They just came back from a 45 minute rain delay which knocked Bonderman out of the game. From the looks of things, it appears that he'll be going for more than just an inning or so.

 

His first inning of work...ground out, strike out, line out.