Dems don't like minimum wage?

[EvilMonkey]

Are you familiar with the term "endowment"? Because by siting assets, that is probably all you have said. Unless you have something that also shows how much they have given away, and spent on other expenses, you haven't shown a single penny of profits in your post.

ss2k, how do you not see that in the Ford Foundation case, that they made a profit? If they didn't make money, they would be broke, since they don't take in outside contributions. The interest earned on their endowment is income. They make money, and spend less than they make, which is why the foundation's assets keep growing. Again,

The Ford Foundation derives its income solely from investments in international securities and does not accept contributions from any other source. As of September 2004, the Foundation had assets valued at more than $10 billion and a grant budget of over $500 million per year.

Seems like from that sentance, they spend $500 million per year, and have assets over $10 billion. I am sure the stock value when Ford started the Foundation was no where near that level, so it has surely grown over the years. Yes, it started with an 'endowment', but it makes money by the interest INCOME from that endowment.

[Rex Kickass]

Actually Tex, if you work an hour - in most states (even on commission) you are required to earn at least $5.15 an hour. Especially at a job like this. It appears this company is breaking the law. I actually interviewed with Grassroots Campaigns in November for a field director job. The $2,000 a month salary thing? That's for the people who run the office. They're supposed to be a "for profit-ish" company, if I remember correctly. A for profit company that works for non profit organizations of a specific political persuasion.

 

Now, this may not be the company policy - but rather the policy of the office managers who are cutting hours and people's pay illegally to look better to their bosses. In either case, its really wrong - and the company ought to fix it or lose its contract.

[southsider2k5]

ss2k, how do you not see that in the Ford Foundation case, that they made a profit? If they didn't make money, they would be broke, since they don't take in outside contributions. The interest earned on their endowment is income. They make money, and spend less than they make, which is why the foundation's assets keep growing. Again,

 

Seems like from that sentance, they spend $500 million per year, and have assets over $10 billion. I am sure the stock value when Ford started the Foundation was no where near that level, so it has surely grown over the years. Yes, it started with an 'endowment', but it makes money by the interest INCOME from that endowment.

 

I understand how to read an income statement, thank you. Maybe I am not explaining this very well, let me try again.

 

What they list as "assets" are their endowment. You do not spend an endowment, you invest it, and what you make off of that is what is spent. Usually an endowment is invested fairly conservatively, so as to not deteriorate the bottom line. Just by eyeballing the figures, 5% of $10 billion is $500 million, which looks to me to be right in line with what you should expect to be making off of interest based investments such as bills, bonds, or notes right now.

 

Those numbers are actually rock solid that they are NOT in fact making a profit.

[EvilMonkey]

I understand how to read an income statement, thank you. Maybe I am not explaining this very well, let me try again.

 

What they list as "assets" are their endowment. You do not spend an endowment, you invest it, and what you make off of that is what is spent. Usually an endowment is invested fairly conservatively, so as to not deteriorate the bottom line. Just by eyeballing the figures, 5% of $10 billion is $500 million, which looks to me to be right in line with what you should expect to be making off of interest based investments such as bills, bonds, or notes right now.

 

Those numbers are actually rock solid that they are NOT in fact making a profit.

Well then, by your logic, they would have to spend exactally what they earned in income to the penny, or risk a profit, or dipping into the assets. I doubt that they spend to the penny what they earn, and at least with the Ford Foundation, they can't touch the base, so if even one dollar is left over, it shows a profit. I am also going to stop arguing this with you, as it is pointless, and has drifted far from the minimum wage issue this started out to be. Maybe next time the United Way chairman rtakes trips to Europe with young women on charity money, or the some other foundation chair buys himself a $250,000 desk, we can start this part up again.

[southsider2k5]

Well then, by your logic, they would have to spend exactally what they earned in income to the penny, or risk a profit, or dipping into the assets. I doubt that they spend to the penny what they earn, and at least with the Ford Foundation, they can't touch the base, so if even one dollar is left over, it shows a profit. I am also going to stop arguing this with you, as it is pointless, and has drifted far from the minimum wage issue this started out to be. Maybe next time the United Way chairman rtakes trips to Europe with young women on charity money, or the some other foundation chair buys himself a $250,000 desk, we can start this part up again.

 

Sorry EM, its not my "logic", its called GAAP. Generally Accepted Accounting Principles.

 

Not making a profit is a bit of misnomer if you are trying to take it down the penny. NFPs are allowed to take in more than they spend in a year, to a reasonable extent, but they aren't allowed to keep it. That money would get rolled up into the next years budget.

 

I am pretty sure that I can get some of the people like Kap or Steff, who deal with this way more often on a daily basis, to back me up on this.

 

Now if you want to start talking about waste and fraud at NFPs again, that is a completely different story.

[Texsox]

It seems like y'all are talkingpast each other. Evil, if I understand the point, is pointing out that the Ford Foundation earned a return (profit) on their investment. Southsider, if I understand his point, is looking at an annual basis and suggesting that if they are spending that money, they have not made an annual profit.

 

So we have individual transaction vs. annual budget. I believe the earnings from the endowment is analogous to a donation and should be considered income. What they do with that money would determine if they showed a "profit" or not.

 

Tossed into the mix were comments that some CEOs and top officials of not for profits have been corrupt, perhaps engaged in illegal activities. Which prompts me to suggest

 

Always check out the charity you are giving to.

CEOs are greedy in both the for profit and not for profit arenas. Overall, I believe we have had more for profit, publically traded companies suffer at the hands of immoral CEOs than not for profit. I'm thinking TYCO, ENRON, etc. Just as no one would or should blindly invest in a company without research, before donating sizable assets to a charity, they should be checked out. may I suggest a donation to the Boy Scouts?

[DrunkBomber]

a healthy minimum wage helps the economy and tends to lower crime rates, therefore it probably does affect you.

 

not all of the working poor are in their particular employment situation because they are lazy or whatever.

I didnt say lazy I said underqualified. Thats still not my point. Dont you see the irony in the article. On top of the fact that they're paying for a campaign to make people a few more cents an hour. This just happened to be these peoples cause of the moment and next week theyll be protesting at Marshall Fields. I do realize it affects me indirectly but not to the point where Im gonna protest for it. A lot of people on this thread are changing the facts of this story. Its just another example of liberals being hypocrits. Also, if you make commision or tips you need to claim at least minimum wage for your taxes. People here may disagree with what Im saying because it sounds ignorant but deep down most people that have worked their whole lives and received an education arent that concerned with minimum wage. There are bigger problems out there. In reference to it helping the economy, I think not paying illegal immigrants cash under the table for less money then Americans will do a job because the money has a higher exchange rate when sent home is a bigger strain on the economy then what little Jimmy makes pushing carts at Target.

Edited September 6, 2006 by DrunkBomber

[Texsox]

There are bigger problems out there. In reference to it helping the economy, I think not paying illegal immigrants cash under the table for less money then Americans will do a job because the money has a higher exchange rate when sent home is a bigger strain on the economy then what little Jimmy makes pushing carts at Target.

 

I find it amazing that people are able to work for $2 per hour, live in the US and pay for food, raiment, and shelter, and still send thousdands of dollars back home . . . amazing.

[DrunkBomber]

I find it amazing that people are able to work for $2 per hour, live in the US and pay for food, raiment, and shelter, and still send thousdands of dollars back home . . . amazing.

Actually, they make about 5 cash, collect government benefits and live in subsodized housing, dont pay taxes, and send money they make to their families that exchanges at enough for them to live comfortably off of.

 

Amazing indeed

[NorthSideSox72]

Actually, they make about 5 cash, collect government benefits and live in subsodized housing, dont pay taxes, and send money they make to their families that exchanges at enough for them to live comfortably off of.

 

Amazing indeed

This is akin to a Hollywood movie - you took individual, spectacular elements of truth and combined them into one whopping picture. Except, many of them don't make 5 cash an hour. Some do, some don't. And most don't collect much in the way of government benefits, since they avoid anything governmental like the plague.

 

Mind you, I have been one on this forum to argue FOR tougher immigration policy. But your statements are a bit over the top, I think.

[southsider2k5]

Actually, they make about 5 cash, collect government benefits and live in subsodized housing, dont pay taxes, and send money they make to their families that exchanges at enough for them to live comfortably off of.

 

Amazing indeed

 

God lord this might take the cake for the biggest load of crap ever laid in filibuster. In reality-land, the great majority of this isn't even possible.

 

#1-Illegals can't collect benefits

#2-in most states illegals aren't able to get benefits such as subsidized housing

#3-most illegals do pay something in taxes as they either steal or use false SS numbers to pass to employers looking to cover their backsides

#4-I'd love to meet an illegal living comfortably. Most live in incredibly cramped housing with way more people than they should in order to keep housing costs to a minimum.

 

The sad thing is that I might be the one leading the charge for tough immigration laws here, and even I can recognize the odiferousness of this pile of s***.

[Texsox]

Actually, they make about 5 cash, collect government benefits and live in subsodized housing, dont pay taxes, and send money they make to their families that exchanges at enough for them to live comfortably off of.

 

Amazing indeed

 

LOL. Not even close to reality.

 

BTW, the government allows illegals to get tax payer ID numbers and to pay taxes. The IRS doesn't care, by law, if the person who is paying taxes is here legally or not.

 

Here is a great article on the life of an illegal http://texasmonthly.com/preview/2006-07-01/feature2

 

Let's take $5 cash that's $800 monthly. Yeehaw, steaks, champagne, 3 car garage, nice home in the suburbs, and I can send $1000/month home to memaw

[DrunkBomber]

LOL. Not even close to reality.

 

BTW, the government allows illegals to get tax payer ID numbers and to pay taxes. The IRS doesn't care, by law, if the person who is paying taxes is here legally or not.

 

Here is a great article on the life of an illegal http://texasmonthly.com/preview/2006-07-01/feature2

 

Let's take $5 cash that's $800 monthly. Yeehaw, steaks, champagne, 3 car garage, nice home in the suburbs, and I can send $1000/month home to memaw

Your statement is just as matter of fact as mine. There arent overwhelming cases for either side but what I stated absolutely happens. Do you have any idea how the labor field works and how many illegals work jobs as painters, laborers and get paid cash and dont report it. I know of several compaines tha do that. Im also not saying that they can lve comfortably here of those wages, Im saying if they send the money home it has a higher echange rate and is enough to live off of. Yet you think that raising minimum wage is more important then fixing stuff like this, and yes there are cases of illegal aliens getting benefits. In reference to your mention of houses in the suburbs, they do subsodize houses like those. Just because you get a tax payer ID doesnt mean you pay taxes, they want you to, but they cant collect if youre paid cash. This is really getting talked around in circles though and isnt even the point of the thread. I was refering to the irony of people protesting minimum wage paying sub minimum wage.

[BigSqwert]

Ive got enough stuff to deal with and worry about that being concerned with how much an underqualified person makes at their job.

Like spending time on an Internet message board commenting about a topic you could care less about.

[DrunkBomber]

Like spending time on an Internet message board commenting about a topic you could care less about.

I didnt say I have better things to do, I said better things to worry about. Sitting at work on a message board occasionally is a little different then protesting minimum wage, but thanks for taking the time to quote me, it puts you at a much higher level then me.

[Jenksismyhero]

God lord this might take the cake for the biggest load of crap ever laid in filibuster. In reality-land, the great majority of this isn't even possible.

 

#1-Illegals can't collect benefits

#2-in most states illegals aren't able to get benefits such as subsidized housing

#3-most illegals do pay something in taxes as they either steal or use false SS numbers to pass to employers looking to cover their backsides

#4-I'd love to meet an illegal living comfortably. Most live in incredibly cramped housing with way more people than they should in order to keep housing costs to a minimum.

 

The sad thing is that I might be the one leading the charge for tough immigration laws here, and even I can recognize the odiferousness of this pile of s***.

 

Isn't Illinois one of many states that provides free education and health care to children of illegals, even if they are illegal themselves? Me thinks this would be a gigantic cost savor as compared to the avg American family.

 

I agree that the previous poster made it seem as though illegals found a way to cheat the system for a gigantic reward. That's wrong. But so are you for making it seem like they work 24/7 and live in the alleys of Chicago with nothing to show for it. I could have sworn I also read stories about illegals who were able to obtain drivers licenses' and apply for financial aid at state universities and colleges (I believe Colorado was involved with that).

 

A lot of the illegals in my neighborhood (Wrigleyville) whom I've talked to on occasion are hard working laborers (painters, construction, landscape, etc) making more than minimum wage, and not paying a dime on taxes.

[Texsox]

Do you have any idea

 

I live on the Mexico border, within the area that has minimal requirements for entry. Both countries allow for easy movement within 40 or 50 miles from the border. I was Executive Director of the South Texas Manufacturers Association. I have friends that own farms, landscape companies, and other industries that are hot spots for illegals. I also worked in a maquilla in Reynosa, Tamaulipas. I have traveled regularly in four northern Mexico states. So yes, I do have an idea.

 

Many of my friend's parents were migrant farm workers in the 60s through 80s. They snuck across the border to pick, sort, and process our crops. They worked long hours, at terrible wages, and under trerrible conditions so their children could live a better life. So yes, I do have an idea.

[DrunkBomber]

Isn't Illinois one of many states that provides free education and health care to children of illegals, even if they are illegal themselves? Me thinks this would be a gigantic cost savor as compared to the avg American family.

 

I agree that the previous poster made it seem as though illegals found a way to cheat the system for a gigantic reward. That's wrong. But so are you for making it seem like they work 24/7 and live in the alleys of Chicago with nothing to show for it. I could have sworn I also read stories about illegals who were able to obtain drivers licenses' and apply for financial aid at state universities and colleges (I believe Colorado was involved with that).

 

A lot of the illegals in my neighborhood (Wrigleyville) whom I've talked to on occasion are hard working laborers (painters, construction, landscape, etc) making more than minimum wage, and not paying a dime on taxes.

I do realize that its not all illegals cheat the system, I realize what Im saying comes off harsh, Im just using it as a reference to something I think is more important then minimum wage. A lot of those things you listed happen everyday and are a strain on the economy and it sounded like some people dont realize it happens. A lot of illegals are very hard working, this scenario just allows them to undercut citizens and solving that would help minimum wage take care of its self.

 

I live on the Mexico border, within the area that has minimal requirements for entry. Both countries allow for easy movement within 40 or 50 miles from the border. I was Executive Director of the South Texas Manufacturers Association. I have friends that own farms, landscape companies, and other industries that are hot spots for illegals. I also worked in a maquilla in Reynosa, Tamaulipas. I have traveled regularly in four northern Mexico states. So yes, I do have an idea.

 

Many of my friend's parents were migrant farm workers in the 60s through 80s. They snuck across the border to pick, sort, and process our crops. They worked long hours, at terrible wages, and under trerrible conditions so their children could live a better life. So yes, I do have an idea.

So because migrant farm workers that illegally entered the country in the 60s worked ward illegals now should get a pass on taxes? Laws are different in Illinois and Texas, they have to be because of the border, obviously youre aware of that. Believe me, Illinois has our fair share of illegals and they hurt the economy. Im not questioning their character, work ethic, work conditions. Im simply saying, IMO it is a bigger issue then minimum wage. I would also like to add I dont think y opinion is any more valuable then anyone elses on here its just how I feel.

[Texsox]

First off your premise that illegals are not paying taxes is largly wrong. They apply for Taxpayer IDs from the IRS and give those to employers, later they may also use a number that they are not assigned. Either way taxes are being paid.

 

You claim to not worry about minimum wage jobs, but talk about the drain on the economy. Reality has shown that legal workers, working at minimum wage, are entitled to a slew of government programs. From housing, to child care, to health care. They require the same police protection. In total they receive far more in services than they pay in taxes. Illegals, working those same jobs, are far less likely to apply for these same programs. So if you are suggesting that illegals are more of a drain than legals, the facts do not support your argument.

 

My opinions aren't any more valuable than anyone elses here. But, when Southsider talks about economic issues, his opinions are more likely to be grounded in fact. When Nuke talks about the military, it's from first hand experience. FlaSoxJim speaks about marine life or dodging a hurricane, it's a pretty damn good chance he's spot on. Want to know all about resistance? Ask QP. I don't know much, but border issues and immigration was a huge part of my life for several years.

 

I will assume, based on your screen name, you're an expert on being drunk. I look forward to liquor discussions. BTW, Jim is an expert on microbrewing beer.

[DrunkBomber]

First off your premise that illegals are not paying taxes is largly wrong. They apply for Taxpayer IDs from the IRS and give those to employers, later they may also use a number that they are not assigned. Either way taxes are being paid.

 

You claim to not worry about minimum wage jobs, but talk about the drain on the economy. Reality has shown that legal workers, working at minimum wage, are entitled to a slew of government programs. From housing, to child care, to health care. They require the same police protection. In total they receive far more in services than they pay in taxes. Illegals, working those same jobs, are far less likely to apply for these same programs. So if you are suggesting that illegals are more of a drain than legals, the facts do not support your argument.

 

My opinions aren't any more valuable than anyone elses here. But, when Southsider talks about economic issues, his opinions are more likely to be grounded in fact. When Nuke talks about the military, it's from first hand experience. FlaSoxJim speaks about marine life or dodging a hurricane, it's a pretty damn good chance he's spot on. Want to know all about resistance? Ask QP. I don't know much, but border issues and immigration was a huge part of my life for several years.

 

I will assume, based on your screen name, you're an expert on being drunk. I look forward to liquor discussions. BTW, Jim is an expert on microbrewing beer.

Im glad youre so good at making assumptions on me based on my screen name, in which case youre a misspelled piece of clothing. In Illinois illegals collect benefits such as free education, subsodized housing, link cards, Im not saying others dont, I never did. You know nothing about me or anything Ive experienced just because I have chose not to disclose to prove validity but I have infact seen first hand on numerous occasions illegals getting paid cash and not reporting it. JUST BECAUSE THEY GET A TAX CARD DOESNT MEAN THEY REPORT THE CASH. Unless you work for the IRS your opinions are just as much hearsay as mine. Youve dodged every good point made by anyone on the subject and resulted to calling me a drunk because you disagree with my opinion.

 

Are there INSTANCES of illegals getting benefits, in IL at least?

 

Are there SEVERAL illegals getting paid cash and not reporting it?

 

Im not talking about social programs or any other argument you need to change this to so you can prove your point.

 

Im simply stating: In my opinion, illegal immigrants are a bigger issue THEN minimum wage right now in Illinois. I didnt say minimum wage wasnt an issue, I said I dont really care about it.

[southsider2k5]

Im glad youre so good at making assumptions on me based on my screen name, in which case youre a misspelled piece of clothing. In Illinois illegals collect benefits such as free education, subsodized housing, link cards, Im not saying others dont, I never did. You know nothing about me or anything Ive experienced just because I have chose not to disclose to prove validity but I have infact seen first hand on numerous occasions illegals getting paid cash and not reporting it. JUST BECAUSE THEY GET A TAX CARD DOESNT MEAN THEY REPORT THE CASH. Unless you work for the IRS your opinions are just as much hearsay as mine. Youve dodged every good point made by anyone on the subject and resulted to calling me a drunk because you disagree with my opinion.

 

Are there INSTANCES of illegals getting benefits, in IL at least?

 

Are there SEVERAL illegals getting paid cash and not reporting it?

 

Im not talking about social programs or any other argument you need to change this to so you can prove your point.

 

Im simply stating: In my opinion, illegal immigrants are a bigger issue THEN minimum wage right now in Illinois. I didnt say minimum wage wasnt an issue, I said I dont really care about it.

 

Seriously man stop while you are way behind...

 

SEVERAL immigrants who aren't paying taxes?

INSTANCES of illegals getting benefits?

numerous occasions illegals getting paid cash and not reporting it.

 

You do realize that there are an estimated 12 MILLION illegal aliens in this country, right? Great example. Boy that really blows away anything that everybody else has talked about.

 

 

At least site some sources or something if you are going to make this arguement.

[DrunkBomber]

Seriously man stop while you are way behind...

 

SEVERAL immigrants who aren't paying taxes?

INSTANCES of illegals getting benefits?

numerous occasions illegals getting paid cash and not reporting it.

 

You do realize that there are an estimated 12 MILLION illegal aliens in this country, right? Great example. Boy that really blows away anything that everybody else has talked about.

 

 

At least site some sources or something if you are going to make this arguement.

I wasnt aware sources were needed on my opinion on which of two issues was worse for the economy.My point to what i had in bold was that I realize that not all illegal immigrants were doing this. Obviously I dont have exact figures, but Im not on trial, I dont need to prove anything, Im stating my opinion. If you want to believe it doesnt happen go ahead.

[Texsox]

You aren't making any points, you are repeating falsities.

 

I wasn't calling you drunk, you called yourself a drunk, unless someone else picked your screen name.

 

Yes there are illegals getting paid cash, there are also grandmas and grandpas getting paid cash and not reporting it. Both cases are wrong, and things should be fixed so that employers can hire legally the workers they need. Laws should also be changed so that grandma doesn't lose her pension or social security because they start a part time job.

 

Yes, illegals go to school, but so do the working poor, both have the same effect on the economy. Both pay little or no taxes. Legals are more likely to apply for government benefits than illegals. Therefor, illegals have have less of a drain than legals.

 

How do you see them not reporting the cash? When I worked at Foot Locker, they paid all of us cash from the register instead of writing checks. All those wages were reported. It is the employer that reports, not the employee. Do you expect the employee to get on the phone and call the IRS, "hey they just gave me $390".Should they take out an ad in the newspaper. You're cracking me up with that. Tell me someone you saw report any income. How do you report your income? How would other people tell?

 

mispelled clothing? I believe raiment was spelled correctly.

 

This was fun, thanks for the laughs. BTW, I assumed you are an adult, I appologize if in fact you are a high school student and just not familar with how some businesses run and the ways of reporting income.

[DrunkBomber]

You aren't making any points, you are repeating falsities.

 

I wasn't calling you drunk, you called yourself a drunk, unless someone else picked your screen name.

 

Yes there are illegals getting paid cash, there are also grandmas and grandpas getting paid cash and not reporting it. Both cases are wrong, and things should be fixed so that employers can hire legally the workers they need. Laws should also be changed so that grandma doesn't lose her pension or social security because they start a part time job.

 

Yes, illegals go to school, but so do the working poor, both have the same effect on the economy. Both pay little or no taxes. Legals are more likely to apply for government benefits than illegals. Therefor, illegals have have less of a drain than legals.

 

How do you see them not reporting the cash? When I worked at Foot Locker, they paid all of us cash from the register instead of writing checks. All those wages were reported. It is the employer that reports, not the employee. Do you expect the employee to get on the phone and call the IRS, "hey they just gave me $390".Should they take out an ad in the newspaper. You're cracking me up with that. Tell me someone you saw report any income. How do you report your income? How would other people tell?

 

mispelled clothing? I believe raiment was spelled correctly.

 

This was fun, thanks for the laughs. BTW, I assumed you are an adult, I appologize if in fact you are a high school student and just not familar with how some businesses run and the ways of reporting income.

A. do you know what a 1099. If you get paid tax free you are an independant contractor and are responsible for reporting their own taxes

 

B. for the 50th time, your referencing grandmas and grandpas not reporting their income has absolutely nothing to do with this conversation, I said it is a bigger issue then minimum wage, I didnt say it was the end of the world, I realize lots of people do that and it is just as bad.

 

http://www.fairus.org/site/PageServer?page...ssuecenters7fd8

 

Although the United States’ welfare rolls are already swollen, every year we import more people who wind up on public assistance: immigrants. Many immigrants are poor; indeed, that is why they come here. The immigrants we admit are much poorer than the native population and are increasing the size of our impoverished population. As a result, the share of immigrant households below the poverty line (18 percent) is much higher than the share of native households that are poor (11 percent)—nearly twice as high. And immigrant households are more likely to participate in practically every one of the major means-tested programs. Immigrant use of welfare programs (21 percent) is 43 percent higher than non-immigrants’ use (15 percent).1

 

Each year, state governments spend an estimated $11 billion to $22 billion to provide welfare to immigrants.2

 

There are some of your precious numbers

[NorthSideSox72]

A. do you know what a 1099. If you get paid tax free you are an independant contractor and are responsible for reporting their own taxes

 

B. for the 50th time, your referencing grandmas and grandpas not reporting their income has absolutely nothing to do with this conversation, I said it is a bigger issue then minimum wage, I didnt say it was the end of the world, I realize lots of people do that and it is just as bad.

 

http://www.fairus.org/site/PageServer?page...ssuecenters7fd8

 

Although the United States’ welfare rolls are already swollen, every year we import more people who wind up on public assistance: immigrants. Many immigrants are poor; indeed, that is why they come here. The immigrants we admit are much poorer than the native population and are increasing the size of our impoverished population. As a result, the share of immigrant households below the poverty line (18 percent) is much higher than the share of native households that are poor (11 percent)—nearly twice as high. And immigrant households are more likely to participate in practically every one of the major means-tested programs. Immigrant use of welfare programs (21 percent) is 43 percent higher than non-immigrants’ use (15 percent).1

 

Each year, state governments spend an estimated $11 billion to $22 billion to provide welfare to immigrants.2

 

There are some of your precious numbers

 

You know... if you had presented these numbers earlier, and hadn't laced all your posts with insults... people might not be ganging up on you.

 

Here in Buster, we try our best to promote discussion. Sometimes it is heated. But if you go back to your posts early on they were fairly inflammatory - so you got the same in return.

 

It seems you have some very good points to make - just try to be careful how you make them.