Dems don't like minimum wage?

[DrunkBomber]

checkmate?

[Texsox]

A. do you know what a 1099. If you get paid tax free you are an independant contractor and are responsible for reporting their own taxes

 

B. for the 50th time, your referencing grandmas and grandpas not reporting their income has absolutely nothing to do with this conversation, I said it is a bigger issue then minimum wage, I didnt say it was the end of the world, I realize lots of people do that and it is just as bad.

 

http://www.fairus.org/site/PageServer?page...ssuecenters7fd8

 

Although the United States' welfare rolls are already swollen, every year we import more people who wind up on public assistance: immigrants. Many immigrants are poor; indeed, that is why they come here. The immigrants we admit are much poorer than the native population and are increasing the size of our impoverished population. As a result, the share of immigrant households below the poverty line (18 percent) is much higher than the share of native households that are poor (11 percent)—nearly twice as high. And immigrant households are more likely to participate in practically every one of the major means-tested programs. Immigrant use of welfare programs (21 percent) is 43 percent higher than non-immigrants' use (15 percent).1

 

Each year, state governments spend an estimated $11 billion to $22 billion to provide welfare to immigrants.2

 

There are some of your precious numbers

 

First off, you said you saw them get paid cash and not report it. You never did tell me how you knew they didn't report it. Of course you would have no idea, so don't worry about it. Where you aware that companies report those wages on their returns, which is why you are required to give your social security number? What they do not do is withhold taxes from the checks. They do report.

 

For the 50th time? LOL. I mentioned it once to point out that there is a booming underground economy. Businesses barter goods and not report the income. People take deducions they are not entitled to, and for the second time, I will mention that some work for unreported wages to avoid social security and pension issues. The laws should be changed to allow people to keep their retirement and work and report the wages.

 

Yes, there is a growing pool of jobs that pay below the poverty line in this country. We are replacing better paying manufactiring jobs, better paying technical jobs, with WalMart wages.

 

Most of these illegals are holding down jobs. Who is going to be a migrant worker? Where are 11,000,000 people going to come from to work these jobs? Should we encourage high school grads to pick crops? Be a janitor? Yardman? Remember, once they are legal, they will be more likely to apply for these government programs. These programs are established for the poor. No matter who is working these jobs, the same benefits would be paid.

 

Nice stats, but you haven't established who will work those jobs after the illegals are gone, and how that will help the economy.

 

Checkmate?

[mr_genius]

Like spending time on an Internet message board commenting about a topic you could care less about.

 

haha, burn

 

Isn't Illinois one of many states that provides free education and health care to children of illegals, even if they are illegal themselves? Me thinks this would be a gigantic cost savor as compared to the avg American family.

 

I agree that the previous poster made it seem as though illegals found a way to cheat the system for a gigantic reward. That's wrong. But so are you for making it seem like they work 24/7 and live in the alleys of Chicago with nothing to show for it. I could have sworn I also read stories about illegals who were able to obtain drivers licenses' and apply for financial aid at state universities and colleges (I believe Colorado was involved with that).

 

great post

 

i totally agree

Edited September 7, 2006 by mr_genius

[kapkomet]

What's GAAP?

[DrunkBomber]

"Illegals, working those same jobs, are far less likely to apply for these same programs. So if you are suggesting that illegals are more of a drain than legals, the facts do not support your argument."

 

Well apparently the facts did support my argument as I stated the figures earlier. 35% More illegal immigrants are receiving benefits then citizens. Also, as Ive stated in almost everyone of my posts, Im not by any means referencing to legals that dont pay taxes not being a drain on the economy. That is a completely different issue that you keep referring to so you can validate your argument which judging by your above comment is made up and you didnt know the numbers. My point, again, is that I feel illegal immigrants are a bigger strain then minimum wage, thats it. Yet you bring up social security, grandma and grampa not paying taxes and other issues that have nothing to do with my point.

 

If you think that spending that kind of money on benefits for illegal immigrants, not legal people so you need not refer to that again, is a bigger issue then raising minimum wage was all I was trying to success.

 

Do you know anyone who even makes minimum wage. I had jobs since the time I was 16 and never had a problem making more then that nor does anyone I know. McDonalds pays more then minimum wage which is why I dont think its that big of an issue.

 

"Yes there are illegals getting paid cash, there are also grandmas and grandpas getting paid cash and not reporting it. Both cases are wrong, and things should be fixed so that employers can hire legally the workers they need. Laws should also be changed so that grandma doesn't lose her pension or social security because they start a part time job."

 

This is what Im talking about. This is what you need to resort to when I am comparing illegal immigrants and minimum wage. What does this have to do with anything in my argument. I never once stated that others getting paid cash and social security werent issues but you need to change the argument to this because you have no validity to your argument, in reference to mine.

 

"How do you see them not reporting the cash? lolhitting.gif When I worked at Foot Locker, they paid all of us cash from the register instead of writing checks. All those wages were reported. It is the employer that reports, not the employee. Do you expect the employee to get on the phone and call the IRS, "hey they just gave me $390".Should they take out an ad in the newspaper. You're cracking me up with that. Tell me someone you saw report any income. How do you report your income? How would other people tell?"

 

You are 100% wrong about this. Employers do not HAVE to disclose who they are paying if it is a sub contractor, they simply write off their payroll and generally dont bother unless it is a long term employee that makes good money. There are several ways around disclosing who you pay. For example, you dont have to give names or soc's if they dont make over a certain amount, you can pay them cash and say youre always hiring new ones. Then you get a 1099 form and the responsibility is on the employee report their income. If you dont, in most cases you wont get caught but it is illegal and you could get audited. This is another claim that is made up completely proving youre shooting out stories to prove your argument. To save you the trouble, yes I realize illegals arent the only ones doing this and I think its a problem, but thats not at all what my argument is.

 

"This was fun, thanks for the laughs. BTW, I assumed you are an adult, I appologize if in fact you are a high school student and just not familar with how some businesses run and the ways of reporting income."

 

This is one of my favorites, you stated its the employess responsibility to disclose employee income and that and that illegal immigrants are less likely to receive benefits and be on social programs and then assume Im not educated. You can have as many people on here agree with you if you want but these are facts that you know absolutely nothing about obviously. Im sure youll twist everything around and bring up non-issues again but the bottem line is you are wrong about the issues I am referring to.

 

"First off, you said you saw them get paid cash and not report it. You never did tell me how you knew they didn't report it. Of course you would have no idea, so don't worry about it. Where you aware that companies report those wages on their returns, which is why you are required to give your social security number? What they do not do is withhold taxes from the checks. They do report."

 

all I really need to reply to this is to ask "Do you honestly think "illegal immigrants" not grandpa are reprting their income when they are paid cash when they are paid as sub contractors?

 

 

I am not naive enough to think I will sway anyones opinion on this but I listed numbers and facts that show how illegal immigrants are a strain on the economy. I doubt there is anyway you will not either make up some new facts or relate my argument to something irrelevant because there is nothing real you can say to prove your point because its invalid. You have no information to offer this subject you cant get from MTV. I have worked in jobs that relate to stuff like this everday and know how it works, you simply do not. Im sure you will retort that you do but look at the things you said proven to be wrong.

 

Again, IM"O" Millions of dollars a year paid to illegal immigrants who dont pay taxes a year is a bigger strain on the economy then raising minimum wage when there are few jobs out there that will pay that little anyway, not social security, crime rates or anything else. Do you honestly disagree with that?

[Texsox]

OK, back to your central statement about which is a bigger strain on the economy. What is the difference in the economuic strain between an undocumented worker collecting benefits and a documented worker collecting benefits? A documented worker, making below the poverty level, which is a few dollars an hour above the minimum wage, is not paying taxes and collecting benefits. I would agree that workers earning below the poverty level, regardless of immigration status, are a strain. I further believe, creating a guest worker program, tied to job creation, is the best approach to filling the needs of employers and society. I would also say, a rise in minimum wage would push more workers above the poverty level and lessen the strain.

 

Who will work these estimated 11,000,000 jobs, that pay at or near minimum wage, if not recent immigrants?

 

(DoL stats)

According to Current Population Survey estimates for 2004, some 73.9 million American workers were paid at hourly rates, representing 59.8 percent of all wage and salary workers.1 Of those paid by the hour, 520,000 were reported as earning exactly $5.15, the prevailing Federal minimum wage, and another 1.5 million were reported earning wages below the minimum.2 Together, these 2.0 million workers with wages at or below the minimum made up 2.7 percent of all hourly-paid workers. Tables 1 - 10 present data on a wide array of demographic and socioeconomic characteristics for hourly-paid workers earning at or below the Federal minimum wage. The following are some highlights from the 2004 data.

 

The minimum wage has a ripple effect. Because it is the floor, to compete for employees, some employers will pay just over that. By raising the floor, most hourly employees will receive higher wages. So it isn't just these workers effected. If, for example, the minimum was raised to $9.40, which the US Health and Human Services has determined is the poverty level for a family of four, it would effect millions of Americans and would have a far greater effect on the economy. Even at this wage level, the family would receive educational benefits, child care assistance, police, fire, military, a kick ass space program, nice roads to drive on, Homeland Security, etc, and not pay any income taxes. They would, of course, be paying various taxes on purchases.

 

As far as reporting income. Yes, I believe most, not all, are reporting their income or having taxes withheld by their employer. Remember at $5-$6 per hour, they don't owe much in taxes. They desire to stay in this country and there is a strong belief that when a program is put in place to solve this problem, if they have not violated any US laws, (Other than the anti-immigration laws) they will have a better chance to stay in this country. As noted, the working poor pay almost zero in taxes as it is.

[EvilMonkey]

This may sound cold and heartless, but if you have a family of 4, and can only work minimum wage or less jobs because of your skill set, you had no business starting a family to begin with. Why are you bringing new mouth(s) to feed into the world when you can barely feed yourself?

 

That said, I generally don't mind a small increase in the minimum wage level, but you can't increase it so that it suddenly becomes a 'living wage'. Those jobs weren't meant to provide support for a family of 4, most (of the legal ones) are entry level jobs, where you are supposed to advance up and out of that pay structure. No one issue is solitary anymore, so solutions are not as straight-forward either.

[Texsox]

Evil, I agree with you. But don't we sound like the Chinese and their population control laws?

 

The issue I see is whatare our career ladders now? It seems like we are exporting better paying jobs (the middle class) and creating service level jobs. Manufacturing was the path for H.S. grads to build a better life, but that has been eroding. What industry should a H.S. graduate go into? Not everyone will survive college. Are there no career paths that lead to a middle class existance without a college degree?

[Rex Kickass]

This may sound cold and heartless, but if you have a family of 4, and can only work minimum wage or less jobs because of your skill set, you had no business starting a family to begin with. Why are you bringing new mouth(s) to feed into the world when you can barely feed yourself?

 

That said, I generally don't mind a small increase in the minimum wage level, but you can't increase it so that it suddenly becomes a 'living wage'. Those jobs weren't meant to provide support for a family of 4, most (of the legal ones) are entry level jobs, where you are supposed to advance up and out of that pay structure. No one issue is solitary anymore, so solutions are not as straight-forward either.

 

Let me give you a family of four scenario EM. One that I saw personally. I have a friend of mine who has two kids - both autistic, one severely the other mildly. She gave birth to them while serving in the military with her husband - also in the military. When they were discharged, they didn't make enough money in the military to stay in Colorado near where they were stationed so they moved back to Michigan to be closer to family so that childcare would become affordable.

 

Despite being trained as an engine mechanic, the only job he could find was stocking shelves at a grocery store for 6 dollars an hour. With her years as an Administrative Assistant in the military, she got a job at the radio station I worked at as an Administrative Assistant. She was making about 9 dollars an hour. That's prevailing wage in that area at the time. She went two years without a raise, despite being one of the most important employees in the sales department. He was laid off when the supermarket cut back its workforce. The resulting problems from the lack of money eventually ended their marriage. So now its just a family of three, living off 9 dollars an hour. She was able to get some limited state assistance, but when youre making 18 grand a year, which is about where 9 dollars puts you, the state assistance you can get is limited. It took her months of searching before she was able to find another AA job that paid her better and gave her the kind of hours she needed so that she could look after her kids the way she needed to as a responsible parent.

 

Not everyone who works on the low rungs of the wage ladder planned to be or stay there, they just get there and find it difficult to get off that rung. Not everyone who has a family of four was making minimum wage (or in this case slightly more) when they had their kids, and unfortunately not everyone who gets pregnant plans on getting pregnant. Sometimes, despite precautionary measures, pregnancy happens.

 

Now we can't ban sex, its one of the few affordable forms of entertainment low wage workers have. And more seriously, you just can't. So unless you think minimum wage earners should be forced into giving up their baby either through abortion or adoption unless they find a better paying job during their pregnancy - we still have to take their needs into account. We belong to a society that believes in protecting all its members and letting them and their children have an equal opportunity to a life that meets basic needs. Our current minimum wage laws don't provide for that at the moment in most places in the US.

[Texsox]

Rex, you highlight a growing problem, that of our ex-military reentering into society. It seems we hear about these stories more and more. I wonder if it's a logical consequence of the changing jobs in America and the military requiring a different skill set than American businesses. It pains me to here that people that have served out country like that should be struggling that much.

 

I think we have two views on the children issue. While I agree that we can't ban sex, we can urge people to be more responsible and not reproduce until they are reasonably able to afford a child. I pray this isn't typical, but I remember hearing about a co-worker who mentioned that his wife wanted a dog for protection, but he felt they were too poor to buy a dog. He was worried about vet bills, food, boarding when they were away, etc. Two months later, he announced they were having a baby. I wasn't the only one connecting the dots and thinking wtf.

 

Equal opportunity does not apply to bank accounts, and thus will never be equal. All we can hope for is to eliminate the non economic factors like racism.

[Jenksismyhero]

Let me give you a family of four scenario EM. One that I saw personally. I have a friend of mine who has two kids - both autistic, one severely the other mildly. She gave birth to them while serving in the military with her husband - also in the military. When they were discharged, they didn't make enough money in the military to stay in Colorado near where they were stationed so they moved back to Michigan to be closer to family so that childcare would become affordable.

 

Despite being trained as an engine mechanic, the only job he could find was stocking shelves at a grocery store for 6 dollars an hour. With her years as an Administrative Assistant in the military, she got a job at the radio station I worked at as an Administrative Assistant. She was making about 9 dollars an hour. That's prevailing wage in that area at the time. She went two years without a raise, despite being one of the most important employees in the sales department. He was laid off when the supermarket cut back its workforce. The resulting problems from the lack of money eventually ended their marriage. So now its just a family of three, living off 9 dollars an hour. She was able to get some limited state assistance, but when youre making 18 grand a year, which is about where 9 dollars puts you, the state assistance you can get is limited. It took her months of searching before she was able to find another AA job that paid her better and gave her the kind of hours she needed so that she could look after her kids the way she needed to as a responsible parent.

 

Not everyone who works on the low rungs of the wage ladder planned to be or stay there, they just get there and find it difficult to get off that rung. Not everyone who has a family of four was making minimum wage (or in this case slightly more) when they had their kids, and unfortunately not everyone who gets pregnant plans on getting pregnant. Sometimes, despite precautionary measures, pregnancy happens.

 

Now we can't ban sex, its one of the few affordable forms of entertainment low wage workers have. And more seriously, you just can't. So unless you think minimum wage earners should be forced into giving up their baby either through abortion or adoption unless they find a better paying job during their pregnancy - we still have to take their needs into account. We belong to a society that believes in protecting all its members and letting them and their children have an equal opportunity to a life that meets basic needs. Our current minimum wage laws don't provide for that at the moment in most places in the US.

 

 

Obviously this is a really sad situation and I hope that she and her children can find a way to get out of the bad situation there in. That said...

 

Life's not fair. As you say, the goal of society is to present to every citizen an equal opportunity to 'succeed,' however one defines that. The goal isn't to put everyone in an equal position throughout their lives. It's no ones fault that she had children with extreme difficulties, but she still made the choice not to attend college, marry into the military, and to have kids without being financially stable enough to afford it.

 

Should the rest of us bare the burden for other people's poor choices? Eh, to a point. I agree we have a responsibility to protect our own, so to speak. But I don't see how raising the minimum wage will help anyone get out of that rut. If anything it will simply raise the level of the lifestyle people are living in. With an increase in minimum wage she wont be able to finance an education, open a business, or anything else that would allow her to rise the salary ladder. She's still going to be stuck in a situation that she can't really climb out of.

 

Government needs to concentrate and invest in education and communities rather than worry about a short-term fix for a long-term problem.

[EvilMonkey]

Evil, I agree with you. But don't we sound like the Chinese and their population control laws?

 

The issue I see is whatare our career ladders now? It seems like we are exporting better paying jobs (the middle class) and creating service level jobs. Manufacturing was the path for H.S. grads to build a better life, but that has been eroding. What industry should a H.S. graduate go into? Not everyone will survive college. Are there no career paths that lead to a middle class existance without a college degree?

Tex, I am not saying or implying that we should have population controls, but a little self control wouldn't hurt. Condoms cost alot less than kids. if you can't eat, don't have kids. I realize some people are simply not smart enough to advance very high in the work force. How about not burdening society with a bunch of kids then? My wife and I held off on kids for a few years until we thought we were better able to afford them and raise them. Yes, a luxury that not all can do, I understand. But if we were dirt poor and living in a tiny apartment, I would be thinking twice about bringing another mounth to feed into the world.

[Rex Kickass]

I think you are misunderstanding me. I'm not saying that life even should be fair or that our government should make things fair. I just think that when people say that couples shouldn't pop out babies when they're making minimum wage seem to forget that a lot of people were doing just fine before they ended up on the lowest rung of the income ladder. And I'm willing to bet there are too many stories like this around our country for us to do nothing about it.

[EvilMonkey]

Let me give you a family of four scenario EM. One that I saw personally. I have a friend of mine who has two kids - both autistic, one severely the other mildly. She gave birth to them while serving in the military with her husband - also in the military. When they were discharged, they didn't make enough money in the military to stay in Colorado near where they were stationed so they moved back to Michigan to be closer to family so that childcare would become affordable.

 

Despite being trained as an engine mechanic, the only job he could find was stocking shelves at a grocery store for 6 dollars an hour. With her years as an Administrative Assistant in the military, she got a job at the radio station I worked at as an Administrative Assistant. She was making about 9 dollars an hour. That's prevailing wage in that area at the time. She went two years without a raise, despite being one of the most important employees in the sales department. He was laid off when the supermarket cut back its workforce. The resulting problems from the lack of money eventually ended their marriage. So now its just a family of three, living off 9 dollars an hour. She was able to get some limited state assistance, but when youre making 18 grand a year, which is about where 9 dollars puts you, the state assistance you can get is limited. It took her months of searching before she was able to find another AA job that paid her better and gave her the kind of hours she needed so that she could look after her kids the way she needed to as a responsible parent.

 

Not everyone who works on the low rungs of the wage ladder planned to be or stay there, they just get there and find it difficult to get off that rung. Not everyone who has a family of four was making minimum wage (or in this case slightly more) when they had their kids, and unfortunately not everyone who gets pregnant plans on getting pregnant. Sometimes, despite precautionary measures, pregnancy happens.

 

Now we can't ban sex, its one of the few affordable forms of entertainment low wage workers have. And more seriously, you just can't. So unless you think minimum wage earners should be forced into giving up their baby either through abortion or adoption unless they find a better paying job during their pregnancy - we still have to take their needs into account. We belong to a society that believes in protecting all its members and letting them and their children have an equal opportunity to a life that meets basic needs. Our current minimum wage laws don't provide for that at the moment in most places in the US.

 

Yes, it is a sad story, and one that happens in this world of ours. Rex, would you buy a $35,000 car if you couldn't afford the $500 month payments? Would you take out a lease on a 3000 square foot apartment if you only made $10 per hour? I never mentioned banning sex. Make sure you reread that, because it isn't in there anywhere. I said that maybe people who can barely keep their own heads above water ought to think twice before adding to their financial responsibilities and adding a child. Sex is free, kids cost a fortune! And if they are low wage earners, who pays for them? Not the parents. Yes, there are exceptions to that, such as you mentioned above. if you are working minimum wage, and living in poor conditions, bringing a child into this world is just wrong. You have, as a parent, a moral and ethical obligation to provide for that child as best you can, and if you can't even provide for yourself, well then you have lost before you have even started. How about a little personal responsibility here?

[Texsox]

You have, as a parent, a moral and ethical obligation to provide for that child as best you can, and if you can't even provide for yourself, well then you have lost before you have even started. How about a little personal responsibility here?

 

Evil, once again, I agree with everything you wrote, but, I then think about the moral implications. Are we then telling people not to reproduce? Don't you think that is hardwired into our being, as a survival tool?

[Rex Kickass]

Yes, it is a sad story, and one that happens in this world of ours. Rex, would you buy a $35,000 car if you couldn't afford the $500 month payments? Would you take out a lease on a 3000 square foot apartment if you only made $10 per hour? I never mentioned banning sex. Make sure you reread that, because it isn't in there anywhere. I said that maybe people who can barely keep their own heads above water ought to think twice before adding to their financial responsibilities and adding a child. Sex is free, kids cost a fortune! And if they are low wage earners, who pays for them? Not the parents. Yes, there are exceptions to that, such as you mentioned above. if you are working minimum wage, and living in poor conditions, bringing a child into this world is just wrong. You have, as a parent, a moral and ethical obligation to provide for that child as best you can, and if you can't even provide for yourself, well then you have lost before you have even started. How about a little personal responsibility here?

 

What about personal responsibility are these people avoiding? I really am growing to hate that phrase because its thrown around so much by people and I don't think that people understand what it really means. A lot of people get thrown into situations that they don't anticipate, that they may or may not be able to handle. In this case, the family did everything that they could do. I don't know many minimum wage earners that drive $35,000 cars or get approved for car loans in that amount. Last time I checked, you need a credit check to get an apartment lease in most cases. If personal responsibility is involved, why are the people who are offering those loans offering them to such high risk payments?

[Queen Prawn]

Similar situation happened to my family when I was a wee lass. My dad had a great job with US Steel. 1981 rolls around and he is laid off due to irresponsible schmucks in the upper levels. My dad loses his job when there are no jobs to be found especially for guys who are not citizens and have no papers to prove they had any schooling. It sucked, but we survived.

 

As for people who buy cars they cannot afford, I used to see that crap everyday at the grocery store I worked at putting myself through college. They would hand me their Link cards to get the cash and then instead of using it for bills, or laundry soap or something, they flash their gold, manicured nails, name brand clothes and use the money to pay cell bills and then play the lottery. That absolutely infuriated me when that would happen.

[EvilMonkey]

Evil, once again, I agree with everything you wrote, but, I then think about the moral implications. Are we then telling people not to reproduce? Don't you think that is hardwired into our being, as a survival tool?

Tex, I think you and I are on the same page. I belive that the people themselves should have enough brains to say 'hey, maybe now isn't the best time to be makin babies.' Should we tell them, "no, you can't have kids!"? Here is where the personal responsibility comes in. Can't feed yourself? Don't have a kid just yet. Want to still have sex? Great, do something so you don't make a baby while doing so. Back in my young, evil days, I partook many times in the pleasure of the flesh, and to my knoledge, have no unclaimed youngins running around. It can be done. As for reproduction being hardwired into us, I think you may have a point there. I knew of some women when I was in college who were just waiting to find a husband and have kids, but most of the guys I knew had no desire whatsoever for offspring at that point in time. I am sure the desire to actualyl reproduce varies from person to person, and probably with age as well.

[Texsox]

I know we agree, it is just a tough area to jump into. Plus, those benefits we are providing, for the most part, benefit the child who didn't have a say in their conception. So I hate to begrudge the children benefits, but I dislike footing the bill for them.

[longshot7]

Which goes to prove why the government should be working with poor communities to educate them in ways of contraception, sex education, and make varieties of contraception more available and easy to obtain, like the morning after pill. But we're so hung up on not promoting recreational sex & not to mention the stupid religions that encourage poor people to have tons of kids....

[Texsox]

I am not aware of any religions that encourages poor people to have children. Most mainstream Christian faiths allow for artificial contraception, and Catholics are encourage to use natural contraception.

[longshot7]

I am not aware of any religions that encourages poor people to have children. Most mainstream Christian faiths allow for artificial contraception, and Catholics are encourage to use natural contraception.

 

Catholicism totally does. Natural Contraception? You mean nothing? What's the harm in letting all those third world countries (and portions of this one) dominated by catholic dogma use artifical contraception, when it will bring down the birth rate, creating more food and resources for the people already living?

 

I see this in LA every day. Until religions try to encourage poor people to have LESS children, they are not helping. "Leaving it up to God" is a bad idea.

[Texsox]

Catholicism totally does. Natural Contraception? You mean nothing? What's the harm in letting all those third world countries (and portions of this one) dominated by catholic dogma use artifical contraception, when it will bring down the birth rate, creating more food and resources for the people already living?

 

I see this in LA every day. Until religions try to encourage poor people to have LESS children, they are not helping. "Leaving it up to God" is a bad idea.

 

http://www.catholicmom.com/nfp_methods.pdf

 

http://www.christianliferesources.com/inde...p;articleid=686

[SleepyWhiteSox]

Catholicism totally does.

 

Let me just get this one straight...

 

What you're saying is that Catholicism is a "stupid religion" that encourages "poor people to have tons of kids"???

[NorthSideSox72]

Which goes to prove why the government should be working with poor communities to educate them in ways of contraception, sex education, and make varieties of contraception more available and easy to obtain, like the morning after pill. But we're so hung up on not promoting recreational sex & not to mention the stupid religions that encourage poor people to have tons of kids....

 

 

Catholicism totally does. Natural Contraception? You mean nothing? What's the harm in letting all those third world countries (and portions of this one) dominated by catholic dogma use artifical contraception, when it will bring down the birth rate, creating more food and resources for the people already living?

 

I see this in LA every day. Until religions try to encourage poor people to have LESS children, they are not helping. "Leaving it up to God" is a bad idea.

Clearly, you haven't had to attend mucus class. It ain't nothing, my friend.

 

(all the Catholics in here know what I mean)