Charlie Haeger

[jackie hayes]

And I never said he was a plus defender. He is an avg. defender right now at the hot corner. He still makes some stupid mistakes but he also makes a lot of great plays at 3B too. And like I also said the only reason now for him to move to LF is because of Crede. When you have a relatively young 3B who is a plus defender and is hitting .300 with around 30 HR's and is still under your control for the next couple of seasons why replace him?

You said "since he isnt a great 3B which would make even more since for him to move to LF". No mention of Crede or .300 or 30 hrs.

 

My original quote said that he's a borderline 3b. Meaning, he can play it, but you can't be sure he'll hold it down for the long-term. Which agrees with much of what I read on the Future Sox board. You tell me that I obviously don't read anything, because he's definitely good. Or maybe he's not definitely good now, but he definitely will be, whatever that means. Now he's become "average". So I take it he's not "definitely a good 3B" now? In any case, I ask you to provide sources. Since it's clear that I've read absolutely nothing about him, of these many reports that you talk about, that seems like a pretty simple request. Still NOTHING. Find me these reports which say he will "definitely" be a good third baseman for many years. Please.

 

My main point was that Peavy >>>> Crisp and Marte > Fields. Now, even though Fields' bat is catching up to Marte's production, Marte was considered an excellent defender at an important position. Fields is right now, in your words, "average" at that position, so I don't think he makes up the difference there. All I was saying was that, if the Pads think there's a good chance Fields will be edged out of third in a couple years by a better defender, that further compromises his value relative to Marte's. So after that it comes down the amount we'd have to throw in for Freddy. I never said he was incompetant, just that his long-term outlook might be at another position. I don't see any contradiction between that and what I read elsewhere, but I'm inviting you to provide the contradiction.

[GoodAsGould]

No doubt If you can get Peavy sure im all for that. Im just saying Fields would stick at the hot corner for most teams but when you have a player like Crede who has always been great with the glove and now his bat has come along a course Fields would move to the OF for him. Also ill say it again... Fields makes a lot of great plays at the 3B position but he also still makes some silly errors. Part of the reason of him being so bad to start off with was back at college he was a 2 sport athlete. Ever since being drafted his defense has improved tenfold.

[kwolf68]

We will never get Jake Peavy....No one would trade him. Although this would be a decent time to go after him with his record being down a bit.

 

We need some nasty arms to compete with Det and Minn next year...Peavy is that type of talent we need, but Im not holding my breath.

[Balta1701]

We will never get Jake Peavy....No one would trade him. Although this would be a decent time to go after him with his record being down a bit.

 

We need some nasty arms to compete with Det and Minn next year...Peavy is that type of talent we need, but Im not holding my breath.

We have nasty arms. I don't care what people say about this season's numbers, Jon Garland, Mark Buehrle, and Jose Contreras makes up a damn good top-3 rotation, and I've been sold on Brandon McCarthy since I sat down and watched that game against Boston at this time last year. That kid is absolutely freaking nasty, and if he has that changeup working, it's one of the 3-4 best pitches in baseball, up with Santana's changeup, Rivera's cutter, and so on.

 

We have nasty arms, they just need to remember it. Both Garland and Buehrle have gone through dead-arm periods this year, which hopefully won't be repeated next year. Jose...I'm not sure yet what he's going through right now. But if those guys are healthy and ready, that's as good of a top-4 as any other team in baseball.

 

Charlie's numbers have been nothing but impressive for the last two years. His record is 28-11 during stops at B'ham and Charlotte. He led the IL in wins with 14 this year and was fourth in ERA, just over 3.00. He also started the AAA All-Star game! He has proven himself to be successful at every level, so why not in the show?

Charlie suffered from first time jitters during his brief stint earlier this year, but who wouldn't?. I think he would be great as a long reliefer, spot starter next year. Move B-Mac into the rotation and let Charlie take his spot as the long reliefer, mop up guy for the first year. Then move him into the rotation in '08. What a great asset to have in the bullpen. He can chew up innings and recover very quickly. It gives him a chance to get his feet wet.

The one problem with that idea is that knuckleballers sometimes need more work just to stay in a groove. We've talked a bunch this season about how BMac's change is a touch-pitch, he needs to throw it a lot to keep the touch on it, a knuckleball is even more so. If he gets only 2-3 innings every 5 days, those 2-3 innings may really suck.

 

My big hope is that Haeger comes up right now and absolutely dominates for 10-15 innings in relief or maybe in a spot start, solely because that will prove to anyone who asks that he can get big league hitters out with that knuckleball. That's the big question anyone is going to have when they think of trading for him...can he get big league hitters out. A couple shutout innings is a good start. He keeps that up, and suddenly he goes from a risky piece to a fairly proven piece in a trade.

 

I wouldn't be mad if he was with the squad next season, but I'd worry about him in the McCarthy role this year, for the same reason BMac has struggled. If we could get something valuable and young for both Javy and Freddy, then I'd live with Haeger in the 5th spot, but that means we get a real good deal for both starters. Otherwise, I'd either try to deal Haeger for the best thing I can get, or start him in AAA again next year and try to keep him as a starter.

[wcw2323]

Depending on what may happen in the winter with the starting staff, Haeger may have an opportunity to step into a starting role (#5) next year. Again, he has the most wins of any minor leaguer the last two seasons, so he definitely deserves to be there. He will chew up innings, averaged 175 each of past two years

and with winter ball last year topped out at nearly 225 innings! He will be great to have in the back of the rotation. His call up will be beneficial to help him adjust the the next level prior to next season. At 22, he's a tremendous talent and could be another Wakefield.

We have nasty arms. I don't care what people say about this season's numbers, Jon Garland, Mark Buehrle, and Jose Contreras makes up a damn good top-3 rotation, and I've been sold on Brandon McCarthy since I sat down and watched that game against Boston at this time last year. That kid is absolutely freaking nasty, and if he has that changeup working, it's one of the 3-4 best pitches in baseball, up with Santana's changeup, Rivera's cutter, and so on.

 

We have nasty arms, they just need to remember it. Both Garland and Buehrle have gone through dead-arm periods this year, which hopefully won't be repeated next year. Jose...I'm not sure yet what he's going through right now. But if those guys are healthy and ready, that's as good of a top-4 as any other team in baseball.

The one problem with that idea is that knuckleballers sometimes need more work just to stay in a groove. We've talked a bunch this season about how BMac's change is a touch-pitch, he needs to throw it a lot to keep the touch on it, a knuckleball is even more so. If he gets only 2-3 innings every 5 days, those 2-3 innings may really suck.

 

My big hope is that Haeger comes up right now and absolutely dominates for 10-15 innings in relief or maybe in a spot start, solely because that will prove to anyone who asks that he can get big league hitters out with that knuckleball. That's the big question anyone is going to have when they think of trading for him...can he get big league hitters out. A couple shutout innings is a good start. He keeps that up, and suddenly he goes from a risky piece to a fairly proven piece in a trade.

 

I wouldn't be mad if he was with the squad next season, but I'd worry about him in the McCarthy role this year, for the same reason BMac has struggled. If we could get something valuable and young for both Javy and Freddy, then I'd live with Haeger in the 5th spot, but that means we get a real good deal for both starters. Otherwise, I'd either try to deal Haeger for the best thing I can get, or start him in AAA again next year and try to keep him as a starter.

[beautox]

Haeger also made his debut at 22, Wakefield made his at 26, i think Charlie should be in the rotation next season.

 

We should deal Garcia + Jose and that will open spots for both McCarthy and Haeger.

[RockRaines]

Haeger also made his debut at 22, Wakefield made his at 26, i think Charlie should be in the rotation next season.

 

We should deal Garcia + Jose and that will open spots for both McCarthy and Haeger.

why the hell would you want to trade Jose to put a rookie knuckler with no real major league experience in the rotation?

 

 

Plus its funny to see people calling for Charlie to be a middle reliever yet the thing that makes everyone on this board crazy is when relievers walk people and let people steal bases, two things that he would do all the time.

[beautox]

why the hell would you want to trade Jose to put a rookie knuckler with no real major league experience in the rotation?

Plus its funny to see people calling for Charlie to be a middle reliever yet the thing that makes everyone on this board crazy is when relievers walk people and let people steal bases, two things that he would do all the time.

 

Well i'm glad you asked Rock. Jose is old, a health risk, and for about a year was the best pitcher in the game, also his contract is below market value and there is a weak FA class this offseason, all these things coupled make me think we should move him while we can andstill get a good return on him. Jose doesn't stop the running game either, so thats a wash with Haeger, plus with Jose moved we can apply that money to locking both Joe and Mark long term.

 

Haeger is young, cheap, durable and knocking on the door, he should be given an oppertunity to start, and the white sox have a proud tradition of Knuckleballers, why stop now. We've seen how dominating they can be, if we can get a league average ERA from him(with the possibillity of much more) and save all that money to lock up people long term i would consider that a wise move.

 

I also believe that Javy has turned a corner much like the afermentioned Jose did last year, and unlike Garcia hasn't lost his "stuff"; and even if he hasn't turned the corner next year we will have known our limits with Javy. Having him go out and dominate for 5-6innings every 5th day isn't the worst thing in the world, esp with the way our BP looks next year and Haeger in the rotation saves the least used BP in MLB even more allowing us to keep Javy on a tight leash.

[RockRaines]

Well i'm glad you asked Rock. Jose is old, a health risk, and for about a year was the best pitcher in the game, also his contract is below market value and there is a weak FA class this offseason, all these things coupled make me think we should move him while we can andstill get a good return on him. Jose doesn't stop the running game either, so thats a wash with Haeger, plus with Jose moved we can apply that money to locking both Joe and Mark long term.

 

Haeger is young, cheap, durable and knocking on the door, he should be given an oppertunity to start, and the white sox have a proud tradition of Knuckleballers, why stop now. We've seen how dominating they can be, if we can get a league average ERA from him(with the possibillity of much more) and save all that money to lock up people long term i would consider that a wise move.

 

I also believe that Javy has turned a corner much like the afermentioned Jose did last year, and unlike Garcia hasn't lost his "stuff"; and even if he hasn't turned the corner next year we will have known our limits with Javy. Having him go out and dominate for 5-6innings every 5th day isn't the worst thing in the world, esp with the way our BP looks next year and Haeger in the rotation saves the least used BP in MLB even more allowing us to keep Javy on a tight leash.

Jose>Haeger in every sense of pitching and baseball. Haeger is not ready for the show, and is probably worth more in the trade market than to the White Sox.

[beautox]

Jose>Haeger in every sense of pitching and baseball. Haeger is not ready for the show, and is probably worth more in the trade market than to the White Sox.

i never said Jose wasn't > Haeger as far as pitching but what i am saying is this

 

MB, JG, Javy, McCarthy, Haeger > MB, JG, Jose, Javy, Garcia

 

In the sense that if Javy has turned the corner he is a power pitcher and can be a #1

 

Garcia doesn't have "it" anymore, and for the reasons i stated above about Jose.

 

the fact that we save a lot of money and lock up Joe and Mark and get the same production for 1/20th of cost out of McCarthy and Haeger, along with helping restock the farm and possibly getting a top tier SS, leads me to believe we should deal him and Garcia.

 

I'm not looking at this on a 1-1 comparison between Jose + Haeger, infact just change that to Haeger & Garcia and McCarthy & Jose, but what is good for the sox organization as a whole, and waht will keep us young and in contention for years to come in a toughest division in baseball.

[RockRaines]

i never said Jose wasn't > Haeger as far as pitching but what i am saying is this

 

MB, JG, Javy, McCarthy, Haeger > MB, JG, Jose, Javy, Garcia

 

In the sense that if Javy has turned the corner he is a power pitcher and can be a #1

 

Garcia doesn't have "it" anymore, and for the reasons i stated above about Jose.

 

the fact that we save a lot of money and lock up Joe and Mark and get the same production for 1/20th of cost out of McCarthy and Haeger, along with helping restock the farm and possibly getting a top tier SS, leads me to believe we should deal him and Garcia.

 

I'm not looking at this on a 1-1 comparison between Jose + Haeger, infact just change that to Haeger & Garcia and McCarthy & Jose, but what is good for the sox organization as a whole, and waht will keep us young and in contention for years to come in a toughest division in baseball.

You couldnt be more wrong. That rotation you have posted is atrocious. Javy hasnt turned the corner, what you see is what you get with him. Haeger has no business making our starting rotation next year. He should be a starter in the league for several years from now. Money is besides the point, just moving Freddy and putting BMAC in the rotation saves you money, putting Haeger in the rotation makes this team much worse.

[harfman77]

I love Jose, but if you can get something good in return for him, kiss him goodbye. He is aging, and while he can be dominating at times, I dont see that as a lasting attribute. At the same time, I think it is a mistake to move Haeger into the rotation anytime soon. I think that he could be a great long man in the bullpen next couple of seasons. I think that a Garcia - Fields - Pods - Valido for Peavy and Klesko deal is a possibility but not likely. I think it is more likely that Freddy goes to the Cards for prospects. I think dealing Contreras to the D-backs make sense, especially if you can acquire Carlos Gonzalez, Justin Upton and possibly Juan Cruz back.

 

The rotation would be:

 

Beurhle

Garland

Vazquez

McCarthy

Cruz/Free agent

 

But getting rid of Freddy and Contreras would allow us to make at Zito too, although I think he has Boras so that is a long shot.

 

I think it is time to sell high on Contreras and see what the market will yield.

[beautox]

You couldnt be more wrong. That rotation you have posted is atrocious. Javy hasnt turned the corner, what you see is what you get with him. Haeger has no business making our starting rotation next year. He should be a starter in the league for several years from now. Money is besides the point, just moving Freddy and putting BMAC in the rotation saves you money, putting Haeger in the rotation makes this team much worse.

Rock while i respect your opinion i disagree.

 

Both Garcia + Jose are bad at stoping the running game, McCarthy is better than one of them at it and Haeger is a wash so in that sense you've already gotten better.

 

We've seen flashes of what McCarthy could do last season and i feel along with others on this site that he has been misused. To cotend in this division we need to bring in cheap peices when possible. Mark/Jon/Javy are all having career worse years, and yet this offense has led this team to a good record. I'm expecting a return to career norms next year with those 3 and possibly a break out year in Javy. Factor in at the very least i expect league average ERAs from McCarthy and Haeger, and we're in contention again, also add to the fact we Have Sweeney in LF and possibly leading off next year getting on at a good clip regardless, and a SS that can produce at the plate, and i expect this team to contend for the division and WC.

[RockRaines]

Rock while i respect your opinion i disagree.

 

Both Garcia + Jose are bad at stoping the running game, McCarthy is better than one of them at it and Haeger is a wash so in that sense you've already gotten better.

 

We've seen flashes of what McCarthy could do last season and i feel along with others on this site that he has been misused. To cotend in this division we need to bring in cheap peices when possible. Mark/Jon/Javy are all having career worse years, and yet this offense has led this team to a good record. I'm expecting a return to career norms next year with those 3 and possibly a break out year in Javy. Factor in at the very least i expect league average ERAs from McCarthy and Haeger, and we're in contention again, also add to the fact we Have Sweeney in LF and possibly leading off next year getting on at a good clip regardless, and a SS that can produce at the plate, and i expect this team to contend for the division and WC.

I understand your philosophy of making over the rotation with younger plays who give us payroll flexibility. But I think you are overrating Haeger just because he seems to be one of the only options. I actually think Broadway is further along at this point than Charlie. If we get rid of 2 of our arms this offseason, I would expect KW to either trade for an SP, or aquire one via FA. Haeger is not ready, or a viable option at this point IMO.

[beautox]

I understand your philosophy of making over the rotation with younger plays who give us payroll flexibility. But I think you are overrating Haeger just because he seems to be one of the only options. I actually think Broadway is further along at this point than Charlie. If we get rid of 2 of our arms this offseason, I would expect KW to either trade for an SP, or aquire one via FA. Haeger is not ready, or a viable option at this point IMO.

I disagree with regards to Haeger, i do think he is ML ready, the organization also must feel highly of him if he was playing in the exhibition games this past ST, had a spot start at the ML level where he was nervous, and is up here as a call up; hopefully September will only further that point. Sickels said Broadway should be ready by mid '07 IF Haeger is strugling, than you bring him up, and you've lost nothing. But once again this depends where you stand on both Broadway and Haeger, you don't feel he is ready and i do, so only time is going to tell.

 

I think the sox are in a great posisiton this offseason they've got Fields, Cotts, Jose, Garcia who look like they call could bring back a nice haul, and then they've got podsednik that some team might bank on a better year next year and is arb eligible, and Uribe who is slick with the glove but madding at the plate.

Edited September 6, 2006 by beautox

[RockRaines]

I disagree with regards to Haeger, i do think he is ML ready, the organization also must feel highly of him if he was playing in the exhibition games this past ST, had a spot start at the ML level where he was nervous, and is up here as a call up; hopefully September will only further that point. Sickels said Broadway should be ready by mid '07 IF Haeger is strugling, than you bring him up, and you've lost nothing. But once again this depends where you stand on both Broadway and Haeger, you don't feel he is ready and i do, so only time is going to tell.

 

I think the sox are in a great posisiton this offseason they've got Fields, Cotts, Jose, Garcia who look like they call could bring back a nice haul, and then they've got podsednik that some team might bank on a better year next year and is arb eligible, and Uribe who is slick with the glove but madding at the plate.

Thats where we will agree to disagree. I agree with you on the trading chips. I think you can easily deal 2 arms out of our rotation this year, and get a good return from one or both, and move BMAC into it easily. I just dont agree on Haeger being ready. I think we will aquire an arm via trade or FA. I dont know if its time to give up on Jose, but I beleive that Freddy needs to be moved. Also PODS, Cotts, and fields can go as well IMO.

[beautox]

Thats where we will agree to disagree. I agree with you on the trading chips. I think you can easily deal 2 arms out of our rotation this year, and get a good return from one or both, and move BMAC into it easily. I just dont agree on Haeger being ready. I think we will aquire an arm via trade or FA. I dont know if its time to give up on Jose, but I beleive that Freddy needs to be moved. Also PODS, Cotts, and fields can go as well IMO.

 

I just can't see sox going out for a FA this off season like i said its weak sauce sans Zito and Schmidt and maybe Pettitte. Zito is 28 and represented by Boras, Schmidt is 33 and has a history of injuries, and Pettitte sucked this year before his good buddy Clemens showed up and is 34. So we already know Zito is going to New York, that leaves you with Pettitte and Schmidt, do you really want to give those guys 3-4 year contracts that its going to take to land them? i don't; especially when that money can be better spent(MB, Crede). As for trading who would you aquire and how? im curious to see what your thinking.

 

by the way this is a good debate.

[Balta1701]

Thats where we will agree to disagree. I agree with you on the trading chips. I think you can easily deal 2 arms out of our rotation this year, and get a good return from one or both, and move BMAC into it easily. I just dont agree on Haeger being ready. I think we will aquire an arm via trade or FA. I dont know if its time to give up on Jose, but I beleive that Freddy needs to be moved. Also PODS, Cotts, and fields can go as well IMO.

You know what? The more I think about it, and the more I see how this team is performing down the stretch, I wouldn't mind terribly another "The Kids can play" year next year. If things keep going downhill and we miss the playoffs...then it might be time to consider some real big changes. Big changes along the lines of moving 2 different starters and starting 2 kids in the rotation to see what they can do, if you can get legit talent for those 2 starters. Things like giving a rookie a chance to start in LF and leading off (a-la Grady Sizemore) while simultaneously murdering Rob Mackowiak such that he never, ever plays Center Field. Dealing Cotts and giving Logan his spot to start the season. Dealing Uribe if you can find a replacement in any of those trades. Hell, even being open to dealing Dye or Crede if you can find the right trade for either of them (only because they'd be as valuable as any other pieces we could deal).

 

Dumping 2 or so starting pitchers, along with Cotts, Pods, Uribe, and maybe finding someone else would free up a ton of money, allowing us to re-up with Buehrle and Iguchi (if we wanted), and more importantly, it might give us a bit of spark/intensity/desire down the road. This team still has a very solid core in Garland, Buehrle, Jenks, Thome, Konerko, Anderson, Thor, MMac, BMac...if this team finishes up the collapse they're working on, why the hell don't we gamble and see what the $400k a year knuckleballer can give us?

[RockRaines]

The only problem with the kids can play team, is that you then basically null Thome, Konerko, and possibly Jose's careers. By the time our kids can play, it may be too late for those 3.

[beautox]

You know what? The more I think about it, and the more I see how this team is performing down the stretch, I wouldn't mind terribly another "The Kids can play" year next year. If things keep going downhill and we miss the playoffs...then it might be time to consider some real big changes. Big changes along the lines of moving 2 different starters and starting 2 kids in the rotation to see what they can do, if you can get legit talent for those 2 starters. Things like giving a rookie a chance to start in LF and leading off (a-la Grady Sizemore) while simultaneously murdering Rob Mackowiak such that he never, ever plays Center Field. Dealing Cotts and giving Logan his spot to start the season. Dealing Uribe if you can find a replacement in any of those trades. Hell, even being open to dealing Dye or Crede if you can find the right trade for either of them (only because they'd be as valuable as any other pieces we could deal).

 

Dumping 2 or so starting pitchers, along with Cotts, Pods, Uribe, and maybe finding someone else would free up a ton of money, allowing us to re-up with Buehrle and Iguchi (if we wanted), and more importantly, it might give us a bit of spark/intensity/desire down the road. This team still has a very solid core in Garland, Buehrle, Jenks, Thome, Konerko, Anderson, Thor, MMac, BMac...if this team finishes up the collapse they're working on, why the hell don't we gamble and see what the $400k a year knuckleballer can give us?

 

I agree Balta, i think this team and organization are in a good posistion for the future, i know alot of people(flash) want our Liriano and fear we're going to get smoked in this division for years to come, but i disagree. There are only 25 spots on a roster. The twins are going to eventually have to pay both Johann and Nathan one day, and don't think New York wont be there to up the price, i highly dobut Johann and Nathan are going to turn down that kinda money.

 

This offseason we need to lock both MB and Crede long term, i would also reup with Riske and maybe reup Dye and move him to LF and let Sweeney take over in RF. When Thome retires move Dye to DH/COF backup.

 

I think once we dump Jose + Garcia that frees up a ton of money along with next year bringing in/having Logan/Tracey/Haeger/Sweeney/Anderson/McCarthy/Stewart, i also think that will keep this team hungry. Plus we've got next years draft, Id like to see us go after SS/2B and as always pitching. Lastly we've got Heath who is either going to produce at the ML level or be a AAAA or maybe a LOOGY. We've seen what mediocre LOOGYs can bring to an organization (Mackowiak, Riske) I have to think one of Cotts stature would bring in more.

[Balta1701]

The only problem with the kids can play team, is that you then basically null Thome, Konerko, and possibly Jose's careers. By the time our kids can play, it may be too late for those 3.

That depends on how all-out you go. If you're talking about selling Buehrle, and Contreras, and basically holding onto Jon Garland as our only starter, then yeah you're talking about bypassing those guys' careers.

 

But let's take a look at what we do have. We have a solid, very solid core in Konerko, Thome, Garland, Jenks, Thornton, MMac, BMac, Crede, Cotts, Logan. All of them are under our control for several more years. We also have Dye, Conteras, Vazquez, Buehrle, Garcia, Iguchi, who are either struggling this year or have their contracts up in 2007.

 

Now, assume we put some money into keeping Buehrle. That gives us 4 solid starters counting BMac. And while our minor leagues is not deep, I for one think that the top of our minor leagues is good enough to fill in the holes we do have, i.e. LF.

 

So, if we ran with youth in 2007, we'd have a starting rotation that looks like Buehrle, Contreras/Vazquez, Garland, BMac, Haeger. We'd have around the outfield, Sweeney, Anderson, Dye, and/or Owens and/or Fields. Around the infield we'd have Crede/Fields, Uribe or a replacement @ SS, Iguchi, Konerko/Thome, AJ. In the bullpen, you still have Jenks, Thor, MMac, Logan, maybe Cotts.

 

Basically, I'm saying that even if we decide to do some more selling this offseason than we would if we won the world series again...there's absolutely no reason we can't be at the top of this division next year even if we go with a youth movement. With Sweeney, Fields, Haeger, and Logan, we have 4 guys we can plug in next year who would make the minimum, alongside BMac and BA who already make the minimum. Basically, the only spots we would have to fill would be a couple of bullpen spots, and we'd have freed up about $20 million in letting go of those 2 starting pitchers. Spend another couple million to give Buehrle a few more years, and maybe spend a couple million getting someone to take Vazquez, and we still wind up with a pretty solid core, with decent quality veterans in several spots, along with all of the money savings.

 

And we'd even have 2 guys who can take over Haeger and BMac's current spots as the 6th starter/long reliever guys hanging out in the bullpen and AAA respectively...Tracey and Broadway.

 

We don't have a lot of depth in the minors, but the guys we do have do seem to me to have some real talent. So if we can't win it this year, why not bring some of those guys up, save the money, trade off a few of the vets, stockpile a little bit more talent, go through some growing pains in 07 early, and maybe be in a good position come trading deadline time where we can take on salary to fix whatever holes appear where the rookies aren't ready.

[beautox]

That depends on how all-out you go. If you're talking about selling Buehrle, and Contreras, and basically holding onto Jon Garland as our only starter, then yeah you're talking about bypassing those guys' careers.

 

But let's take a look at what we do have. We have a solid, very solid core in Konerko, Thome, Garland, Jenks, Thornton, MMac, BMac, Crede, Cotts, Logan. All of them are under our control for several more years. We also have Dye, Conteras, Vazquez, Buehrle, Garcia, Iguchi, who are either struggling this year or have their contracts up in 2007.

 

Now, assume we put some money into keeping Buehrle. That gives us 4 solid starters counting BMac. And while our minor leagues is not deep, I for one think that the top of our minor leagues is good enough to fill in the holes we do have, i.e. LF.

 

So, if we ran with youth in 2007, we'd have a starting rotation that looks like Buehrle, Contreras/Vazquez, Garland, BMac, Haeger. We'd have around the outfield, Sweeney, Anderson, Dye, and/or Owens and/or Fields. Around the infield we'd have Crede/Fields, Uribe or a replacement @ SS, Iguchi, Konerko/Thome, AJ. In the bullpen, you still have Jenks, Thor, MMac, Logan, maybe Cotts.

 

Basically, I'm saying that even if we decide to do some more selling this offseason than we would if we won the world series again...there's absolutely no reason we can't be at the top of this division next year even if we go with a youth movement. With Sweeney, Fields, Haeger, and Logan, we have 4 guys we can plug in next year who would make the minimum, alongside BMac and BA who already make the minimum. Basically, the only spots we would have to fill would be a couple of bullpen spots, and we'd have freed up about $20 million in letting go of those 2 starting pitchers. Spend another couple million to give Buehrle a few more years, and maybe spend a couple million getting someone to take Vazquez, and we still wind up with a pretty solid core, with decent quality veterans in several spots, along with all of the money savings.

 

And we'd even have 2 guys who can take over Haeger and BMac's current spots as the 6th starter/long reliever guys hanging out in the bullpen and AAA respectively...Tracey and Broadway.

 

We don't have a lot of depth in the minors, but the guys we do have do seem to me to have some real talent. So if we can't win it this year, why not bring some of those guys up, save the money, trade off a few of the vets, stockpile a little bit more talent, go through some growing pains in 07 early, and maybe be in a good position come trading deadline time where we can take on salary to fix whatever holes appear where the rookies aren't ready.

 

I agree that we don't have alot of MILB depth, but isn't the point to keep the big club in contention? thats what the farm is there for to bring in youth when you can, and help you aquire peices (macdougal).

 

If we trade Garcia and Jose, we most likely don't have to help pay for their contracts, and Hermanson comes off the books next year and thats 2mil right there, thats 22million between those 3, along with Podsednik in arb (he makes 700K as of now), and Uribes 2mil, thats alot of money that can be better spent on Crede and Buehrle.

 

Ideally this is how I would like to see '07

 

SP - MB, JG, Vazquez, McCarthy, Haeger(Broadway if Haeger is faltering by the ASB)

BP - Jenks, MacDougal, Thornton, Logan, Riske, Tracey

 

DH - Thome

C - AJP has shown that he can catch Haeger and will only get better.

1B - Konerko

2B - Iguchi

3B - Crede

SS - Tejada, Young, Lugo, Rollins

LF - Dye/Sweeney

CF - Anderson

RF - Dye/Sweeney

 

Bench: Cintron, Mackowiak, Gload, Stewart(has caught Haeger alot), Ozuna, Ryan can back up Brian in CF

 

The nice thing about our BP is between Jenks/Mac/Thornton/Logan they all have at least 1ML save and some form of closing experience and can all hit 95 +

[RockRaines]

A rotation with Haeger, BMAC, JG, VAZ, and MB would automatically make it the third best in our own division. Which would make it almost impossible to make the playoffs.

[Balta1701]

A rotation with Haeger, BMAC, JG, VAZ, and MB would automatically make it the third best in our own division. Which would make it almost impossible to make the playoffs.

That depends on an awful lot of variables. I.e. guys who are having career years this year not regressing (K. Rogers, Bonderman, Verlander, Maroth), a lot of young guys staying healthy (Verlander, Maroth, Liriano), and we've seen in recent years in Chicago that guys can unexpectedly go from very down years to very up years.

 

If Mark Buehrle puts up a 3.25 ERA next year, Jon Garland goes for 20 wins, and Vaz/Jose find a way to put up something, anything...and McCarthy gives us anywhere close to what he's capable of putting up...all of which are within the realm of possibility...there's no reason why our pitching staff can't match up with anyone in the Central.

 

That of course assumes that guys won't suddenly decide to suck, which in some ways is a problem for any pitcher in the division except 1.

[beautox]

A rotation with Haeger, BMAC, JG, VAZ, and MB would automatically make it the third best in our own division. Which would make it almost impossible to make the playoffs.

Once again this depends on what you think of McCarthy and Haeger, and i totally disagree.

 

MB aside from this year has been an ACE, and the definition of a quality start and hes only 27, he not even in hit his prime.

 

Garland is 26 and the winningest pitcher in MLB for the past two years, now i agree W's are a team stat, but when he has that sinker working and busting people inside, its like watching batters hit bowling balls.

 

Vazquez as of late has been outstanding, and even not as of late has always dominated innings 1-5 and sometimes 6, and once again this depends on where you stand but i think hes turned the corner and could easily be our Ace next year, and KW isn't going to deal him not after giving up Young and after one year.

 

McCarthy last year(and this year recently) showed flashes of what he could/can do, he led the IL in strike outs last year even with stops in Chicago, and there is a reason people always ask for him in trades and KW says no.

 

We're not going to agree on Haeger, but i will say this, having a knuckle baller on your staff saves your BP even more, and our BP was the least used BP in all of the bigs this year and last, with Haeger on the Staff we can keep Vazquez on a tight leash.

 

Our Offense is the best in baseball, thats with a leadoff hitter that doesn't get on base, a rookie that struggled for 2months this year and a SS that thinks eye fastballs on a 3-2 count are a good idea to chase.

 

think what we could do with Sweeney and a SS that can actually produce and anderson batting in the 270-280 range. This year the pitching staff hasn't kept us in games and it was all about offense, next year i expect a break out year from Javy, and MB, JG to return to career norms, and Haeger and McCarthy to be league average at least, if not much more than that. Our offense will produce the same amount if not more, maybe not career years out of Dye, but i could see PK getting back to 40-100, and Crede doing 30-100 and same for Dye, with Anderson and Sweeney adding production and something coming out of our SS.