State of the sox farm system

[gosox41]

I'm curious as to how people perceive the Sox farm system right now. Reading thse threads, I get so many different opinions. Some thing Heath Philips has no future and that Fields is Borchard in disguise while others think Fields can easily come up and be a good hitter.

 

Do the Sox have a lot of minor leaguers with decent big league potential? Where are the strengths and weaknesses of the Sox farm system? Are there any impact players coming up? Is there hope for the future?

 

I just want to see what some around here think.

 

 

 

Bob

 

EDIT: I do the I forgot the Sox in the title. I meant 'Sox' obviously, but expect to see a bunch of 'Ox' even if I have no knowledge of that team exisiting anywhere. I'm sure someone will find something in the Podunk Little League or something,

Edited September 2, 2006 by gosox41

[Gene Honda Civic]

[gosox41]

 

 

That was fast.

[WHITESOXRANDY]

Well, every minor league affiliate has a losing record except Charlotte and that's because they are populated by a bunch of older non-prospects. And, their second half hasn't been good anyway.

 

Also, we only have at most 5 prospects in this organization that other teams would be excited to get their hands on. And, none of them are sure-fire future stars.

 

I'd say this is a weak system right now. The Sox are also not known for great player development or drafting like Minny, Detroit or Cleveland - whoops all of our competitors !

 

Maybe, if we could trade Garcia and Vazquez that will help us land a few more serious prospects.

[CWSGuy406]

In answer to the title of the thread...

 

"It stinks! It stinks!"

[gosox41]

Well, every minor league affiliate has a losing record except Charlotte and that's because they are populated by a bunch of older non-prospects. And, their second half hasn't been good anyway.

 

Also, we only have at most 5 prospects in this organization that other teams would be excited to get their hands on. And, none of them are sure-fire future stars.

 

I'd say this is a weak system right now. The Sox are also not known for great player development or drafting like Minny, Detroit or Cleveland - whoops all of our competitors !

 

Maybe, if we could trade Garcia and Vazquez that will help us land a few more serious prospects.

 

 

I didn't realize that things were that bad off. Granted they traded away 2 top pitchers for Thome and Yound for Vazquez. I'm sure that would make a difference. But even so, the Sox have generally been a disappointment in the pitching area while being good in everyday players.

 

What are the Sox doing wrong that Minnesota or an Atlanta has done right? It can't be all draft position. I've read spend higher then average on scouting and player development so I don't think the system is neglected or ignored. Is it the scouting, which is already an inexact science or is it the coaching.

 

One thing I did notice when the Sox played Minnesota was that tghe non-star .300 hitters (Tyner, Bartlett) tend to go with the pitch and try not to do to much. I never saw so many weak duck snorts and choppers then when Minny was in town. The seemed to go with the pitch and definitely weren't swinging for the fences. They had a good approach and the fact that they have speed allows them to beat out hits or break up DP's that slower guys can't do.

 

O na different note, people rip on Schueler for his drafting and development, but how has KW done any better when it comes to the minor leagues? Obviously overall KW is a better GM then Schueler for the simple fact that he won the World Series, but in terms of only the farm system, I think KW is worse then Schu.

 

 

 

Bob

[witesoxfan]

Obviously overall KW is a better GM then Schueler for the simple fact that he won the World Series, but in terms of only the farm system, I think KW is worse then Schu.

Bob

 

What did Schu's minor league system produce?

 

KW's has produced Jim Thome, Javier Vazquez, Freddy Garcia, Mike MacDougal and others too. Indirectly, yes, but it has. It's also produced Brandon McCarthy, Brian Anderson, a good looking hitter in Sweeney, and you can make arguments for others too(perhaps Cotts, Jenks, and others he's picked up in trades and waiver claims)

[gosox41]

What did Schu's minor league system produce?

 

KW's has produced Jim Thome, Javier Vazquez, Freddy Garcia, Mike MacDougal and others too. Indirectly, yes, but it has. It's also produced Brandon McCarthy, Brian Anderson, a good looking hitter in Sweeney, and you can make arguments for others too(perhaps Cotts, Jenks, and others he's picked up in trades and waiver claims)

 

 

First, let me say that one of KW's strengths is picking up young minor leaguers that have been overlooked by other teams.

 

As for what Scheuler has produced, here's some major league players that were drafted (or signed as free agents) by the Sox and made the majors:

 

1. Crede

2. Buehre

3. Lee

4. Ordonez

5. Cameron

6. Sirotka

7. Baldwin

8. Durham

 

That's a few off the top of my head. Obviously there have been a lot of busts, but every GM has had their share of those. I think most of those guys were drafted in the mid 90's on, which should be about 6-7 drafts since Schu left in 2000. KW has had the same, but of course it takes time for players to develop. I realize that.

 

 

Bob

[witesoxfan]

First, let me say that one of KW's strengths is picking up young minor leaguers that have been overlooked by other teams.

 

As for what Scheuler has produced, here's some major league players that were drafted (or signed as free agents) by the Sox and made the majors:

 

1. Crede

2. Buehre

3. Lee

4. Ordonez

5. Cameron

6. Sirotka

7. Baldwin

8. Durham

 

That's a few off the top of my head. Obviously there have been a lot of busts, but every GM has had their share of those. I think most of those guys were drafted in the mid 90's on, which should be about 6-7 drafts since Schu left in 2000. KW has had the same, but of course it takes time for players to develop. I realize that.

Bob

 

I understand what you're saying and where you're coming from...but while Schu may have been better in player development, KW is one of the best at managing who he keeps, who he trades, and who he trades for. It's the main reason the White Sox won a World Series last year.

[gosox41]

I understand what you're saying and where you're coming from...but while Schu may have been better in player development, KW is one of the best at managing who he keeps, who he trades, and who he trades for. It's the main reason the White Sox won a World Series last year.

 

 

I agree with that. I just want this team to be a legit championship contender for as long as possible and to do that the Sox will need a productive farm system to be either brought up or traded away for talent. If there's only about 5 guys in demand from other teams (as someone earlier posted) and none are All Star caliber, it makes it that much more difficult to trade for stud players.

 

 

 

Bob

[BearSox]

Offensive wise, not that bad

 

Pitching wise, not so good.

[kwolf68]

I personally believe our minor league system is now a bottom tier system. That is partially because of guys just not making it, injuries, poor drafts, and trades.

 

I'm not high on any pitchers right now...Some guys like Russell, Harrell, Broadway, Wisler, Egbert, Perez are interesting, but are all question marks. As far as position players, we have essentially ONE good prospect up the middle (C, SS, 2, CF) in Chris Getz. We have a couple solid outfielders/corner fielders, but every organization has that.

 

Anything below AA is a crap shoot in my view and there is no real reason to analyze those guys right now (although early returns on Ommogroso..spelling and McCulloch are encouraging)

 

I hope this off-season Kenny goes in a different direction and deals off some of our vets and start to replinish our minor league quality.

Edited September 8, 2006 by kwolf68

[CWSGuy406]

I'm not high on any pitchers right now...Some guys like Russell, Harrell, Broadway, Wisler, Egbert, Perez are interesting, but are all question marks. As far as position players, we have essentially ONE good prospect up the middle (C, SS, 2, CF) in Chris Getz. We have a couple solid outfielders/corner fielders, but every organization has that.

 

FWIW, Chris Getz finished with a .320 OBP and a .323 SLG%. But yeah, he's our future second baseman in 2008...

[danman31]

FWIW, Chris Getz finished with a .320 OBP and a .323 SLG%. But yeah, he's our future second baseman in 2008...

I'm not banking on him being a good starter, or even a starter, but he did skip high A so give him a bit of a break.

[gosox41]

I personally believe our minor league system is now a bottom tier system. That is partially because of guys just not making it, injuries, poor drafts, and trades.

 

I'm not high on any pitchers right now...Some guys like Russell, Harrell, Broadway, Wisler, Egbert, Perez are interesting, but are all question marks. As far as position players, we have essentially ONE good prospect up the middle (C, SS, 2, CF) in Chris Getz. We have a couple solid outfielders/corner fielders, but every organization has that.

 

Anything below AA is a crap shoot in my view and there is no real reason to analyze those guys right now (although early returns on Ommogroso..spelling and McCulloch are encouraging)

 

I hope this off-season Kenny goes in a different direction and deals off some of our vets and start to replinish our minor league quality.

 

 

What's also worth mentioning is that of all the minor leaguers KW has traded, none have made it big or would even be considered good. YHoung has the best chance and it's early to tell with him. So give KW credit for getting a lot in return for not very good players, but on the flipside it makes one wonder waht they're doing wrong with their drafts.

 

 

 

Bob

Edited September 9, 2006 by gosox41

[GoodAsGould]

What's also worth mentioning is that of all the minor leaguers KW has traded, none have made it big or would even be considered good. YHoung has the best chance and it's early to tell with him. So give KW credit for getting a lot in return for not very good players, but on the flipside it makes one wonder waht they're doing wrong with their drafts.

Bob

 

Umm thats not entirely true.... Rauch and Majewski have been pretty successful RP's. Frankie Francisco was also very good but has been hurt but now has returned and my friend said he looks really good out there. Also Rupe has turned into a pretty good starting pitching prospect for the Rangers and actually was going to start the season in the rotation b4 injury. But next season has another good shot at doing that. And he didnt trade him but Fabio Castro has also been a successful RP for the Phillies. And Chris Young had another great season in AAA so no reason to think he wont be as good as everything thinks he will.

[Gene Honda Civic]

Offensive wise, not that bad

 

Pitching wise, not so good.

I don't agree with that.

 

There are only 3, maybe 4, interesting position players in the system. Sweeney, Fields, & Cunningham...

 

On the pitching side of things, there are a number of players who are still worth watching. Broadway, Haeger, Logan, Phillips, Russell, Harrell (does anyone know if he was injured in B'ham?), Perez, Rice, even Whisler. Plus there's the new blood McCulloch, Long, OMGrosso, Edwards.

Edited September 9, 2006 by Gene Honda Civic

[Heads22]

Yah, Lucas got DL'd.

 

You forgot Eggy.

[danman31]

Umm thats not entirely true.... Rauch and Majewski have been pretty successful RP's. Frankie Francisco was also very good but has been hurt but now has returned and my friend said he looks really good out there. Also Rupe has turned into a pretty good starting pitching prospect for the Rangers and actually was going to start the season in the rotation b4 injury. But next season has another good shot at doing that. And he didnt trade him but Fabio Castro has also been a successful RP for the Phillies. And Chris Young had another great season in AAA so no reason to think he wont be as good as everything thinks he will.

You made his point for him. For the players we got in return Rauch and Majewski is an incredibly cheap price to pay. Francisco can not be considered a big loss at this point in time. Young is the concern but he also mentioned him.

[GoodAsGould]

You made his point for him. For the players we got in return Rauch and Majewski is an incredibly cheap price to pay. Francisco can not be considered a big loss at this point in time. Young is the concern but he also mentioned him.

 

This is what he said

 

What's also worth mentioning is that of all the minor leaguers KW has traded, none have made it big or would even be considered good.

 

and Rauch, Majewski, Frankie, and Rupe are all pretty good players or prospect still in Rupes case. And than I know he mentioned Young be he is still worth mentioning. Plus the book is still out on Gio Gonzalez. Rupe isnt mentioned much but according to my buddy who is a Rangers fan he has really good stuff and there is a real good chance he can be starting for them next season. Like I already said he would have started this season but got hurt at the end of ST.

[gosox41]

You made his point for him. For the players we got in return Rauch and Majewski is an incredibly cheap price to pay. Francisco can not be considered a big loss at this point in time. Young is the concern but he also mentioned him.

 

 

Exactly my point. Rauch was so hyped up (BA Minor League Player of the Year) that there were some who predicted he'd be a stud starter to maybe a #3 starter. Now he's a middle reliever. Not sayng it wouldn't be nice to have him back when I watch some of the middle relievers pitch now, but Rauch was part of the Colon trade if I remember correctly. That was a steal for the Sox...a great trade for KW.

 

Majewski has been a decent middle reliever but nothing special. He's been a journeyman who I believe has been with the Sox on 3 seperate times and traded a way at least once if not more.

 

There's no doubt that as of right now, Young is the best player KW has given up in a trade at least in terms of talent, and I can only assume he's going to be a very good major leaguer based on what he's done in the minors.

 

 

 

 

 

Bob

 

 

 

I don't agree with that.

 

There are only 3, maybe 4, interesting position players in the system. Sweeney, Fields, & Cunningham...

 

On the pitching side of things, there are a number of players who are still worth watching. Broadway, Haeger, Logan, Phillips, Russell, Harrell (does anyone know if he was injured in B'ham?), Perez, Rice, even Whisler. Plus there's the new blood McCulloch, Long, OMGrosso, Edwards.

 

 

I think the post you responded to was talking about Schueler's moves.

 

But, yes, there currently seems to be more legit pitching prospects in the Sox system now then position players.

 

On the flip side, if you look at the Sox history of developing starting pitchers the last 15 years or so, it's been pathetic. There's Buehrle. McCarthy has a high ceiling but hasn't proven anything as a starter. Then after that you'd have to jump down to Baldwin and Sirotka.

 

Middle relievers are a dime a dozen, and if you can trade young pitching prospects that don't seem to have a high ceiling for quality major leaguers, then you have to do it. No sense waiting around to see if a guy can become a good middle reliever or a sucky starter.

 

 

 

Bob

[GoodAsGould]

Rauch was part of the 2nd Carl Everett deal....

[santo=dorf]

For the people trying to rank where our system is, I would like to know how much time you personally have spent evaluating the other 29 MLB teams' farm system and how exactly you are rating each team.

 

QUOTE(gosox41 @ Sep 8, 2006 -> 10:36 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

What's also worth mentioning is that of all the minor leaguers KW has traded, none have made it big or would even be considered good. YHoung has the best chance and it's early to tell with him. So give KW credit for getting a lot in return for not very good players, but on the flipside it makes one wonder waht they're doing wrong with their drafts.

Bob

How about we blame the OTHER team's farm system for that player who flopped??? Who cares what an old minor leaguer goes onto to do as long as the trade worked out fine for us?

 

Jeez, Bob give it a rest already. KW won, he's not going anywhere.

 

No big name minor leaguers in the farm system = we either traded them all away or our system sucks.

Minor leaguer gets playing time in the MLB with another and does some things over a short period of time = We're stupid for trading him away

Minor leaguer we traded away gets playing time in the MLB with another and flops = our fault because he was originally a product of our system (regardless of how much time he may have actually spent with the Sox.)

 

[gosox41]

For the people trying to rank where our system is, I would like to know how much time you personally have spent evaluating the other 29 MLB teams' farm system and how exactly you are rating each team.

How about we blame the OTHER team's farm system for that player who flopped??? Who cares what an old minor leaguer goes onto to do as long as the trade worked out fine for us?

 

Jeez, Bob give it a rest already. KW won, he's not going anywhere.

 

No big name minor leaguers in the farm system = we either traded them all away or our system sucks.

Minor leaguer gets playing time in the MLB with another and does some things over a short period of time = We're stupid for trading him away

Minor leaguer we traded away gets playing time in the MLB with another and flops = our fault because he was originally a product of our system (regardless of how much time he may have actually spent with the Sox.)

 

 

 

Let's clear things up:

1. I used to be anti-KW it's no secret. He made some pretty dumb moves when he first came here. I'm not asking for KW to be axed anymore.

2. Go back and read my posts (here or at other sites) from say the winter of '04 on. That's when I turned positive on KW and gave him credit for making intelligent moves. This was before he won anything and I was giving the guy credti for making solid moves.

3. I was in favor of the Vazquez trade at the time and while I've been disappointed in Vazquez mid-season performance, go back and show me where I ripped KW on this. I don't care if Young hits .300 and averages 30HR's and 30 SB's for the next 10 years. It was a way to solidify the pitching staff.

4. I've spent zero time scouting our minor leagues, hence the reason I was asking for opinions in this thread. I wanted to see what people more familiar with the system thought.

5. The Sox will need a strong farm system if they want to continue winning. Whether it's to make trades or bring up to help the team they'll need it. Because like most people aroung here know, if the Sox don't make the playoffs for a couple of years, there's a very good chance attendence can drop. I'm not saying it will go down to 1998-1999 levels, but a drop of 500,000 wouldn't surprise me, and that could mean n extra $15-20 mill in revenue.

6. I do follow baseball enough to know what other teams are doing to sustain winning. I can see waht teh Braves, A's and Twins are doing to sustain winning. It's one thing for Tamp to use all their high draft picks to get a ton of talent, but it's another to see the 3 teams I mentioned consistently contend. Sure none of them has won the World Series lately and Atlanta is having a down year (I'd take 14 playoff appearances in a row, heck I'd be thrilled with 2 right about now) but the A's and Twins have excellen chances to make the Series this year. Of course I don't have a crystal ball so maybe you can share with me who the 2 WS teams will be in 2006 and who will win it all.......

 

So back to the farm system. Is it good? I guess that's compared to what. I see the Pirates and Cubs and we're way better. But they suck.

 

So let's hear your opinions. You sound like you watch a minor league ball and follow everything more then me. How do the Sox rank? Who are the impact players on the horizon? Share some of that insight. Because coming after me for comments I made 4-5 years ago is silly. And if you don't like the subject being discussed, why post?

 

 

 

Bob

[WHITESOXRANDY]

If Sweeney and Fields are in the Majors next year, then this could be about the worst system in baseball. There would certainly not be a single major prospect after those two.