This "love affair" with Jimenez

[cwsox]

I think he was more or less referring to the fact that Ryan also had slumps when he was pitching, and he misused the word 'suck.'

 

I assumed what he meant by that was that he'll never lose that many games.

Thanks bud but I did not misuse the word "suck." Notice how I referred to seasons in which Nolan Ryan sucked and that was twiosted to mis-state that I said Ryan sucked.

 

In fact, look at the double digit losses that Nolan Ryan had 10 years in a row .

 

1971 24 NYM NL 10 14

1972 25 CAL AL 19 16

1973 26 CAL AL 21 16

1974 27 CAL AL 22 16

1975 28 CAL AL 14 12

1976 29 CAL AL 17 18

1977 30 CAL AL 19 16

1978 31 CAL AL 10 13

1979 32 CAL AL 16 14

1980 33 HOU NL 11 10

 

Look at those losses from 72-77. Can you imagine what would be said about any Sox pitcher, MB included and especially, if in 6 consecutive seasons he lost 16, 16, 16, 12, 18, and 16?

 

I actually remember in real life when Nolan Ryan did in fact suck as a pitcher - look at the stats. I was probably older than some posters here, ahem, when Ryan was a young wild picther who was all potential and double digit losses season after season. That does not take way that he ahd a Hall of fame career. But for 10 years of that career, Ryan's loss totals were in the Ritchie-esque category. In 10 years, Ryan won what, a total of only 14 more than he lost with double digit losses. Call it what you may - I remember it well.

 

And I refuse to anyone's homework, but MB's record for his first 3 years is superiuor to Ryan's.

 

I am not sying that at the end of MB's career he will be greater than Ryan, or even a hall of famer. Time will tell. But when the rap it put on our players, I like to ask people: check the stats before you trash. And Ryan sucked for a few years and didn't hit any type of consistent winning stride until the 2nd half of his career - still outside of the living memory of many.

[cwsox]

"sucky" Nolan Ryan.

you are the only person who used that phrase.

[clujer420]

you are the only person who used that phrase.

Bottom line is that you shouldn't use the words "suck" and "Nolan Ryan" in the same paragraph.

 

You could probably pick apart ANY player's yearly stats and find faults in them. You need to look at a person's career as a WHOLE. And I am not one of the MB bashers. I don't like some of his St Louis comments, but NEVER would I take pleasure in him losing, because I root for the Sox first-and-foremost. I want him to get it turned around just as much as anyone here, because the Sox NEED it.

 

In time, I hope we can compare Buehrle to Ryan, but to even try doing that right now is silly.

[Guest hotsoxchick1]

Bottom line is that you shouldn't use the words "suck" and "Nolan Ryan" in the same paragraph.

 

how about nolan ryan likes to suck on lolly pops.........

[elrockinMT]

Mark Buerhle has had some bad outings where he got absolutely hammered thus the high ERA. But, he has also pitched some really good games and not received defensive or offensive support thus the record. Tonight he pitched a gem against the Red Sox and won. I am happy for him and the team. I know that MB is not a 2-10 pitcher. He isn't a 3-10 pitcher either. He will get better as the season progresses. The one's to gain? The Sox.

[cwsox]

Bottom line is that you shouldn't use the words "suck" and "Nolan Ryan" in the same paragraph. 

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In time, I hope we can compare Buehrle to Ryan, but to even try doing that right now is silly.

bottom line is I think that for many of Ryan's years, his record sucked. I posted the stats to show why. Agree or disagree, but do not tell others what they should or should not post.

 

MB's stats for this point in his career are better than Ryan's. No idea what they will mean at the end of MB's career, but it should keep anyone freom being too judgmental. Young talent takes time to develop, often. It did in Ryan's case.

[BrandoFan]

I WISH Buehrle would "suck" as much as Nolan Ryan did.

 

Please do not compare a 3rd year pitcher to perhaps the greatest pitcher of all-time.

 

Excuse me but amazing durability/longevity aside, his 3.20 career ERA and nearly 300 losses are very human.

 

I will go as far as to say that if Nolan was pitching today instead of 60-80's, in tiny stadiums like Devilraydome, Camden, BOB, etc, with juiced up players, live ball, watered down pitching, etc...he would be a 4.00 ERA pitcher...whereas Unit and Pedro would be untouchable if they pitching back then- I am talking about ERA in 1.00s. Easily.

[Bmr31]

I WISH Buehrle would "suck" as much as Nolan Ryan did.

 

Please do not compare a 3rd year pitcher to perhaps the greatest pitcher of all-time.

 

Excuse me but amazing durability/longevity aside, his 3.20 career ERA and nearly 300 losses are very human.

 

I will go as far as to say that if Nolan was pitching today instead of 60-80's, in tiny stadiums like Devilraydome, Camden, BOB, etc, with juiced up players, live ball, watered down pitching, etc...he would be a 4.00 ERA pitcher...whereas Unit and Pedro would be untouchable if they pitching back then- I am talking about ERA in 1.00s. Easily.

Woulda coulda mighta..........i bet if i lived back in the 1800s id be really tall.... and chics would think i had a large cock.

[clujer420]

I WISH Buehrle would "suck" as much as Nolan Ryan did.

 

Please do not compare a 3rd year pitcher to perhaps the greatest pitcher of all-time.

 

Excuse me but amazing durability/longevity aside, his 3.20 career ERA and nearly 300 losses are very human.

 

I will go as far as to say that if Nolan was pitching today instead of 60-80's, in tiny stadiums like Devilraydome, Camden, BOB, etc, with juiced up players, live ball, watered down pitching, etc...he would be a 4.00 ERA pitcher...whereas Unit and Pedro would be untouchable if they pitching back then- I am talking about ERA in 1.00s. Easily.

292 career losses certainly is human, but 5,714 strikeouts is anything but human. That is sick and insane, and his 7 career no-hitters is remarkable.

 

I can't believe I'm having to defend Nolan Ryan.

[whitesox61382]

Is Jimenez ever going to be a GG? No. Can he be a solid defensive player? Yes. I think Jimenez needs a new manager more then anyone on this team. Someone who will light a fire under him. A player shouldn't need a manger to get him going, but if it means that he develops into one of the top all around 2nd baseman in the league then i could live with it. He has some great potential. Look what he is doing despite the fact that he doesn't play that hard. He is a good enough athlete that he could be a solid fielder. He isn't much worse then Durham defensively. He also has solid speed and 20+ SB potential if he is motivated, allowed to run, and becomes a smarter base runner. He has been in a slump this past week, but he has still been one of the most consistant hitters. Most fans hate the fact that he is lazy, but it is hard to argue with his potential and production, especially in a season where there hasn't been much to cheer about for Sox fans. For the last time Miles isn't the answer. On Jimenez's worst day he is still better then Miles. Heart can only make up for so much lack of skill.

[cwsox]

Most fans hate the fact that he is lazy

that generally is enough.

 

if a player needs a manager to be motivated, the player isn't playing, and shouldn't be.

[clujer420]

that generally is enough.

 

if a player needs a manager to be motivated, the player isn't playing, and shouldn't be.

Yep.

 

If a love for the game and/or all the zeros on their paychecks aren't enough to light a fire under someone's ass, they have no place in the league.

[BrandoFan]

I WISH Buehrle would "suck" as much as Nolan Ryan did.

 

Please do not compare a 3rd year pitcher to perhaps the greatest pitcher of all-time.

 

Excuse me but amazing durability/longevity aside, his 3.20 career ERA and nearly 300 losses are very human.

 

I will go as far as to say that if Nolan was pitching today instead of 60-80's, in tiny stadiums like Devilraydome, Camden, BOB, etc, with juiced up players, live ball, watered down pitching, etc...he would be a 4.00 ERA pitcher...whereas Unit and Pedro would be untouchable if they pitching back then- I am talking about ERA in 1.00s. Easily.

292 career losses certainly is human, but 5,714 strikeouts is anything but human. That is sick and insane, and his 7 career no-hitters is remarkable.

 

I can't believe I'm having to defend Nolan Ryan.

I am sorry I have to point out somethnig this obvious:

 

Strikeouts (like homers) are only as good as the ERA/OPSagainst (RBI total ) they go toward improving. Baseball 101.

 

I'd rather have Zito or Greg Maddux and their relatively low K/9inn ratios than to have Nolan in most of his seasons...Best ever? If Pedro was pitching in the 70-80's, his career ERA would be HALF of Nolans, get real.

[Chisoxfn]

you are the only person who used that phrase.

Nolan Ryan sucked when you compare what he did to what he could of done.

 

If he ever stopped giving a damn about his strikeout numbers, he would of been a much better pitcher. Hell, he could of probably still been pitching if you think of the number of pitches he could of cut each season by not worrying about the strikeouts.

 

The Express was a hell of a pitcher though. I just think he could of been the greatest of all time by FAR if he was more efficient.

[CWSOX45]

How can anyone say he's good defensivly? that booted routine ball in the first which costed a run was no fluke. He plays 2b like a 16" softball player. Only difference is, you can boot the ball and still get the runner out in MLB.  And i dont belive he'll get better in time. He's 27 right? He has a good eye at the plate and a good hitter, but a bad baserunner, bad defender, and dumb! This is why this team sucks. Too many guys like him. I'll take Ray's defense over his any day and i was one of the guys packing his baggs for him. Jiminez sucks, there's a reason why the Yankees and even the Padres didnt want him.    :finger

I agree with all of your points. I shared some of my feelings earlier on the gamethread. Jimenez is not a player that should be considered in the Sox future.

 

CWSOX45

[clujer420]

I WISH Buehrle would "suck" as much as Nolan Ryan did.

 

Please do not compare a 3rd year pitcher to perhaps the greatest pitcher of all-time.

 

Excuse me but amazing durability/longevity aside, his 3.20 career ERA and nearly 300 losses are very human.

 

I will go as far as to say that if Nolan was pitching today instead of 60-80's, in tiny stadiums like Devilraydome, Camden, BOB, etc, with juiced up players, live ball, watered down pitching, etc...he would be a 4.00 ERA pitcher...whereas Unit and Pedro would be untouchable if they pitching back then- I am talking about ERA in 1.00s. Easily.

292 career losses certainly is human, but 5,714 strikeouts is anything but human. That is sick and insane, and his 7 career no-hitters is remarkable.

 

I can't believe I'm having to defend Nolan Ryan.

I am sorry I have to point out somethnig this obvious:

 

Strikeouts (like homers) are only as good as the ERA/OPSagainst (RBI total ) they go toward improving. Baseball 101.

 

I'd rather have Zito or Greg Maddox and thier his low K/9inn ratio than to have Nolan in most of his seasons...Best ever? If Pedro was pitching in the 70-80's, his career ERA would be HALF of Nolans, get real.

And if Tony Gwynn hit in the big ballparks of the early 1900's, he might have hit .400 for his career. What's your point?

 

You can't penalize a guy because of when he played, and you can't praise someone for how they may have played in any given time period.

[Chisoxfn]

Is Jimenez ever going to be a GG? No. Can he be a solid defensive player? Yes. I think Jimenez needs a new manager more then anyone on this team. Someone who will light a fire under him. A player shouldn't need a manger to get him going, but if it means that he develops into one of the top all around 2nd baseman in the league then i could live with it. He has some great potential. Look what he is doing despite the fact that he doesn't play that hard. He is a good enough athlete that he could be a solid fielder. He isn't much worse then Durham defensively. He also has solid speed and 20+ SB potential if he is motivated, allowed to run, and becomes a smarter base runner. He has been in a slump this past week, but he has still been one of the most consistant hitters. Most fans hate the fact that he is lazy, but it is hard to argue with his potential and production, especially in a season where there hasn't been much to cheer about for Sox fans. For the last time Miles isn't the answer. On Jimenez's worst day he is still better then Miles. Heart can only make up for so much lack of skill.

Most fans called Garret Anderson lazy for years. It turned out he wasn't lazy, he just makes things look so easy that it tends to make you look lazy.

 

Not saying this is the case, but Jimenez is a type of guy that I think it could fit. I think he cares a hell of a lot. If he didn't care he wouldn't of worked his way back to where he is now.

 

I also think getting a more firey type of manager could do D'Angelo wonders, not that he's doing bad right now. I definately see his flaws, but I truly believe they can be fixed.

[whitesox61382]

Your point about Ryan having slumps and Buehrle pitching better then his 10 loses would indicate are well taken. However, using wins and loses alone to determine whether a pitcher is good or not is one of the stupidest things I have ever heard. Wins and loses are determined by the team more then the individual pitcher with Buehrle as a prime example. The fact that he lead the league in ERA and still had 18 loses should alone tell you how little wins and loses should be taken into consideration in determining how good a pitcher is. If Clemens played for the Tigers his whole career should that take away from his other accomplishments and overall greatness? You also have to remember that pitchers went longer into games and usually had both more wins and loses, something you don't see a lot of today from the starters that go 5 and call it a night. Will people quit comparing eras and saying that if this player played during this time he would be so much better or worse. There is no way that you can logically determine how players from different eras would react to another era, so quit using speculation and opinion to assume that you know that players would be better or worse in different eras. Ryan is in a league of his own and if you don't know that then you know nothing about baseball. Using his loses to take away from his legacy is retarded. Buehrle has a long way to go before being mentioned in the same breath as Ryan. They aren't even similar pitchers.

 

On a different note, I would take a lazy Jimenez that is producting then another player with heart that isn't producing. This is a game based on production. Jimenez putting up these numbers .280/15/75 70 BB 10 SB 10 errors is better then a player with heart putting up these numbers .250/5/50 40 BB 5 SB 15 errors. So keep Jimenez and get a manager to motivate him and get his full potential. That is what the Sox do end of story because he is currently, and in the future, the best option the Sox have at 2nd.

[BrandoFan]

The Express was a hell of a pitcher though. I just think he could of been the greatest of all time by FAR if he was more efficient

 

You're insane if you think he is better than Pedro or Koufax or Unit or even Gibson. Outside of 72 and 82 seasons, he was merely "very, very good" , nowhere near greatness.

 

Best ever by FAR? Yeah right, I wanna see him pitch in Enron or BP in Arlington, he'd be giving up 2 homers a start.

 

 

Having said that, Burly shouldn't be mentioned in the same sentence as Nolan Ryan. Mark is will be injured before 2005, bet on it.

[Chisoxfn]

I'm assuming those last numbers are of Jose Valentin or something like that?

[BrandoFan]

Jimenez putting up these numbers .280/15/75 70 BB 10 SB 10 errors is better then a player with heart putting up these numbers .250/5/50 40 BB 5 SB 15 errors

 

Since Jimenez can't turn a good DP and has no range, his errors are more weighty than you think. Have you any idea how many runs he already cost the Sox on the D.? That error in Oakland alone accounted for 3. Compared to him, both Crede and Valentin are gold glovers this season.

 

As far as his offense, he needs to out-OPS Willie Harris by a good 70-100 points margin in order to be considered a starter at 2nd. Granted so far he is doing that, but Willie ain't going anywhere, he is hanging ropes all over the place in almost every atbat nowdays and DJ is looking like a shadow of his former self.

[Bmr31]

Since Jimenez can't turn a good DP and has no range, his errors are more weighty than you think.  Have any idea how many runs he cost the Sox on the D.?  That error in Oakland alone accounted for 3.  Compared to him, both Crede and Valentin are gold glovers this season.

 

As far as his offense, he needs to out-OPS Willie Harris by a good 70-100 points margin in order to be considered a starter at 2nd.  Granted so far he is doing that, but Willie ain't going anywhere, he is hanging ropes all over the place in almost every atbat nowdays and DJ is looking like a shadow of his former self.

No he is looking like his REAL self....

[BrandoFan]

Will people quit comparing eras and saying that if this player played during this time he would be so much better or worse. There is no way that you can logically determine how players from different eras would react to another era, so quit using speculation and opinion to assume that you know that players would be better or worse in different eras.

 

Just say you know nothing--or care nothing-- about "other" eras and be done with it.

 

"Speculation" doesn't have to be an exact science in order to be something legitimate or valid, the fact remains that pitching in Enron or in BPA is a little more difficult....ah forget it, I am sure it will fall on deaf ears.

 

There is nothing legendary about 3.20 career ERA, ok? Compare him to some of his contemproraries if you want. And I couldn't care less about his 5710000000000 SO's just like I caoun't care less about Ripkens record or about Aaron's 750+ homers....

[clujer420]

 

There is nothing legendary about 3.20 career OPS, ok?

 

No, but a 3.20 career ERA over a nearly 30 year career is pretty darned impressive.

 

And if you don't think Ripken's record is amazing and worthy of all the acknowledgement it received, YOU are the one who knows nothing about baseball.

[cwsox]

However, using wins and loses alone to determine whether a pitcher is good or not is one of the stupidest things I have ever heard. 

 

On a different note, I would take a lazy Jimenez that is producting then another player with heart that isn't producing. This is a game based on production.

1. Sorry I am too stupid to please you. Will you ever forgive me?

 

2. Wins and losses are what, a matter of, say, production? If baseball is a game based on production, then how do we measure that apart from the final product? Production, product - that would be wins and losses.

 

It is not the only way to measure but it remains of most importance - sorry that I am so stupid that I believe that. The season will be judged by who many wins and losses we have - or has baseball given that up?

 

 

3. A superior pitcher will triumph over a bad team. Look at Steve Carlton in 1972. And that raises the point of how old are you? I do not ask that to be insulting - I am curious if you ever saw Ryan pitch the first ten-fifteen years of his career. As it turns out, I did. He had a high number of strike outs and also wild pitches and pitches hitting the backstop (an old school term) and the guy's success was predicated in large part by the fear of the batters - the ball could be down the middle of the strike zone as well as 5 feet over their heads as well as hit them. Randy Johnson had sort of the same thing going for much of his career.

 

I find it a tad amusing when someone who wasn't alive when a player was playing tells me what that player did when I saw that player. Nolan Ryan had a hall of fame career. He stayed in the majors the first part of his career because of his potential, not so much because of what he was actually doing. And his no hit games were amazing but so was his lack of control and his essentially 500 pitching record.

 

This is not a knock on Ryan - and it is also a tad amusing the defensiveness of trying to insist that a favorite player is perfect and had no flaws. Everyone has their good and bad points. Given a pitcher to win any one game, no one would pick a Nolan Ryan - you'd take a Seaver, a Gibson, a Koulfax. No one will probably ever touch those Ryan no hitters.

 

4. Try suggesting to Selig and the Cy Young voters that counting wins and losses are "stupid." Maybe you can find a way to talk us into the World Series and Todd Ritchie could win the 2002 Cy Young retroactively.

 

But then again, I am too stupid to understand, I guess. I think producing = production. Damn am I am dumb f***!