Ozzie haters

[Hideaway Lights]

Look, no matter what you say, there is no way in hell that the 2005 team wins the World Series without Ozzie Guillen. I don't care what kind of spin you want to put on this.

 

>>>

 

Back to the point. Ozzie Guillen's vision of rebuilding the White Sox was the reason the team was even put in a position to win the division last year. It was Ozzie Guillen who demanded that Kenny reconstruct the roster around what he wanted - with more speed at the top of the lineup. Sure, KW went along with it, and made the moves, but as I understand it, the impetus was from Ozzie. And even though Podsednik basically sucks now, he was the catalyst of last year's lineup and a true leadoff hitter is the reason why we were able to succeed with players like Carl Everett and a one-legged Frank Thomas DHing. It was that style of play that won. Not Carlos Lee and a bunch of right handed beefcakes taking batting practice.

 

Love him or hate him now, Ozzie Guillen is the reason why we got Freddy Garcia to re-sign in Chicago. Without Freddy, we don't win the series last year.

 

It was under Ozzie Guillen's managing that Garland was able to finally live up to his potential, something that Jerry Manuel was never able to have faith in.

 

It was Ozzie Guillen who kept the team's motivation up. Whatever that means, you cannot deny that the team last year NEVER quit.

 

There are several more reasons why Guillen was invaluable.

 

Suddenly now, he's the worst manager to ever don a uniform and people are calling for his head. Yes, he has made some atrocious decisions this year. But to discount his impact last season is ludicrous. Absurdly ludicrous.

 

He may not last even one more season in Chicago, but I will never, ever for a second believe anything else but that Ozzie Guillen was one of the most important reasons the White Sox ever won the World Series. Everything had to go right for us to pull that off. And that includes the manager being the manager.

 

It honestly sickens me to read some of these posts.

[rangercal]

I agree 100%

[The Critic]

Yep, I agree 100% as well.

Well said.

[Pants Rowland]

Look, no matter what you say, there is no way in hell that the 2005 team wins the World Series without Ozzie Guillen. I don't care what kind of spin you want to put on this.

 

>>>

 

Back to the point. Ozzie Guillen's vision of rebuilding the White Sox was the reason the team was even put in a position to win the division last year. It was Ozzie Guillen who demanded that Kenny reconstruct the roster around what he wanted - with more speed at the top of the lineup. Sure, KW went along with it, and made the moves, but as I understand it, the impetus was from Ozzie. And even though Podsednik basically sucks now, he was the catalyst of last year's lineup and a true leadoff hitter is the reason why we were able to succeed with players like Carl Everett and a one-legged Frank Thomas DHing. It was that style of play that won. Not Carlos Lee and a bunch of right handed beefcakes taking batting practice.

 

Love him or hate him now, Ozzie Guillen is the reason why we got Freddy Garcia to re-sign in Chicago. Without Freddy, we don't win the series last year.

 

It was under Ozzie Guillen's managing that Garland was able to finally live up to his potential, something that Jerry Manuel was never able to have faith in.

 

It was Ozzie Guillen who kept the team's motivation up. Whatever that means, you cannot deny that the team last year NEVER quit.

 

There are several more reasons why Guillen was invaluable.

 

Suddenly now, he's the worst manager to ever don a uniform and people are calling for his head. Yes, he has made some atrocious decisions this year. But to discount his impact last season is ludicrous. Absurdly ludicrous.

 

He may not last even one more season in Chicago, but I will never, ever for a second believe anything else but that Ozzie Guillen was one of the most important reasons the White Sox ever won the World Series. Everything had to go right for us to pull that off. And that includes the manager being the manager.

 

It honestly sickens me to read some of these posts.

 

I agree with just about everything you said. Ozzie was great last year. He was the reason they cut the cord on a lot of talented popular players and added a more balance and diverse attack. The results were amazing and the memories lasting.

 

I am sure it is tough for the manager to keep his edge just as it is for the players after a title year. The fact that no one Ozzie puts on the mound has been consistent all year compounds the problem. I disagree with his use of the position players sometimes but I also think that KW regressed in adding so much offense in the off-season. He went back a bit to the formula that did not work in prior years rather than adding more speed and defense as Ozzie requested. I personally feel that KW should be blamed more than Ozzie at times.

 

However, this year Ozzie seems to have lost something. There is a massive chip on his shoulder and a need to fight anyone who challenges him in any way. He reminds me at times of a child in trouble compounding the issue by not quitting when he is ahead. He calls out members of the media, players on other teams, coaches on other teams, and even his own players. He does it in a very public manner and is typically very insensitive in his choice of words. I am not even thinking about the Marriotti incident as much as his daily routine. He can be very funny and candid at times but he can also be crude and abrasive.

 

I question whether these are typical Ozzie "dumb like a fox" tactics where he is motivating using words he does not really mean. Rather, I think he has let his success from last year go to his head to the point that he feels infallible. I think Ozzie is a smart baseball man and already has shown more than a flash of greatness as a manager. I also think this team is lacking in balance, especially in outfield defense. Overall, though, this year has been a disappointment not just from a player standpoint, but also a managerial standpoint.

 

I agree that Ozzie will always be treasured for helping the White Sox realize a dream. I just hope he is not our version of Mike Ditka.

[Pants Rowland]

Look, no matter what you say, there is no way in hell that the 2005 team wins the World Series without Ozzie Guillen. I don't care what kind of spin you want to put on this.

 

>>>

 

Back to the point. Ozzie Guillen's vision of rebuilding the White Sox was the reason the team was even put in a position to win the division last year. It was Ozzie Guillen who demanded that Kenny reconstruct the roster around what he wanted - with more speed at the top of the lineup. Sure, KW went along with it, and made the moves, but as I understand it, the impetus was from Ozzie. And even though Podsednik basically sucks now, he was the catalyst of last year's lineup and a true leadoff hitter is the reason why we were able to succeed with players like Carl Everett and a one-legged Frank Thomas DHing. It was that style of play that won. Not Carlos Lee and a bunch of right handed beefcakes taking batting practice.

 

Love him or hate him now, Ozzie Guillen is the reason why we got Freddy Garcia to re-sign in Chicago. Without Freddy, we don't win the series last year.

 

It was under Ozzie Guillen's managing that Garland was able to finally live up to his potential, something that Jerry Manuel was never able to have faith in.

 

It was Ozzie Guillen who kept the team's motivation up. Whatever that means, you cannot deny that the team last year NEVER quit.

 

There are several more reasons why Guillen was invaluable.

 

Suddenly now, he's the worst manager to ever don a uniform and people are calling for his head. Yes, he has made some atrocious decisions this year. But to discount his impact last season is ludicrous. Absurdly ludicrous.

 

He may not last even one more season in Chicago, but I will never, ever for a second believe anything else but that Ozzie Guillen was one of the most important reasons the White Sox ever won the World Series. Everything had to go right for us to pull that off. And that includes the manager being the manager.

 

It honestly sickens me to read some of these posts.

 

I agree with just about everything you said. Ozzie was great last year. He was the reason they cut the cord on a lot of talented popular players and added a more balance and diverse attack. The results were amazing and the memories lasting.

 

I am sure it is tough for the manager to keep his edge just as it is for the players after a title year. The fact that no one Ozzie puts on the mound has been consistent all year compounds the problem. I disagree with his use of the position players sometimes but I also think that KW regressed in adding so much offense in the off-season. He went back a bit to the formula that did not work in prior years rather than adding more speed and defense as Ozzie requested. I personally feel that KW should be blamed more than Ozzie at times.

 

However, this year Ozzie seems to have lost something. There is a massive chip on his shoulder and a need to fight anyone who challenges him in any way. He reminds me at times of a child in trouble compounding the issue by not quitting when he is ahead. He calls out members of the media, players on other teams, coaches on other teams, and even his own players. He does it in a very public manner and is typically very insensitive in his choice of words. I am not even thinking about the Marriotti incident as much as his daily routine. He can be very funny and candid at times but he can also be crude and abrasive.

 

I question whether these are typical Ozzie "dumb like a fox" tactics where he is motivating using words he does not really mean. Rather, I think he has let his success from last year go to his head to the point that he feels infallible. I think Ozzie is a smart baseball man and already has shown more than a flash of greatness as a manager. I also think this team is lacking in balance, especially in outfield defense. Overall, though, this year has been a disappointment not just from a player standpoint, but also a managerial standpoint.

 

I agree that Ozzie will always be treasured for helping the White Sox realize a dream. I just hope he is not our version of Mike Ditka.

[tony72]

Yep, I agree 100% as well.

Well said.

I agree too..he was part of the formula that helped bring us a championship for the first time in 88 years..yes he has made mistakes this year but so does every singe manager !

 

For those who want Ozzie gone..let's remember some names..

 

Jerry Manual

Terry Bevington

Gene Lamont...

 

Are you sure you want Ozzie to leave?

[Dan]

i absolutley agree. half this forum is nothing but fair-whether fans, and thats including many of the guys with a lot of posts too. last year, you guys sing our teams praises, we dance in the streets, world series yada yada yada. this year, Podsednik sucks we need to replace him. hell i saw threads sugesting the likes of Dave f***ing Roberts. come on people. we've seen what scotty (and the rest of the team for that matter) can do but he hits a rut and you loose all faith? no trades need to be made, until scott comes out of the slump we play Ozuna in LF and try to pick up our offense 1-9.

 

PS the true reason for scott's slump, Lisa Dergan is too much as for him to handle. shoota's got me on this one.

[WCSox]

I basically agree with this. My major criticism of Ozzie is the way that he throws his players under the bus in public. If he continues to do so, he'll lose this team. Other than that, I support him, even though I sometimes disagree with some of his decisions.

[Wealz]

What about Tom Kelly though?

[Kalapse]

i absolutley agree. half this forum is nothing but fair-whether fans, and thats including many of the guys with a lot of posts too. last year, you guys sing our teams praises, we dance in the streets, world series yada yada yada. this year, Podsednik sucks we need to replace him. hell i saw threads sugesting the likes of Dave f***ing Roberts. come on people. we've seen what scotty (and the rest of the team for that matter) can do but he hits a rut and you loose all faith? no trades need to be made, until scott comes out of the slump we play Ozuna in LF and try to pick up our offense 1-9.

 

PS the true reason for scott's slump, Lisa Dergan is too much as for him to handle. shoota's got me on this one.

Wow, talk about being WAY offbase. Yes, anyone who questions the team or the manager is a fair weather fan, that makes sense.

 

1.) Scott Podsednik is a bad baseball player, it was appearant in '04 as well as the second half of last year, tell me one thing that he does well? Exactly, this is not a slump this is him playing the kind of baseball he was born to play. He's been in the league for 4 years, 1.5 of which have seen him play good ball, the other 2.5 years he's been a below average offensive player with some of the worst defense imaginable in LF. There is no more "waiting for him to come out of his slump" it's over, done with, the man should no longer see the field, there's currently 4 better alternatives to him on the current roster, 3 lefties, 1 righty and 2 of which can play excellent defense in the corners.

 

2.) Dave Roberts. The idea of acquiring Dave Roberts to take over leadoff duties next year was not thought up by an "fair weather, Scott Podsednik hater" on this site, it was reported in some San Diego Newspaper that once Dave Roberts hits free agency this offseason he will be targeted by Kenny Williams so ya, if you want to get upset at anyone for that, go after the writer and Ken Williams.

 

If you think I or anyone else is a "fairweather fan" because we refuse to settle for mediocrity/get upset with the team losing then you should probably rethink your definition of the phrase.

[BigSqwert]

i absolutley agree. half this forum is nothing but fair-whether fans, and thats including many of the guys with a lot of posts too. last year, you guys sing our teams praises, we dance in the streets, world series yada yada yada. this year, Podsednik sucks we need to replace him. hell i saw threads sugesting the likes of Dave f***ing Roberts. come on people. we've seen what scotty (and the rest of the team for that matter) can do but he hits a rut and you loose all faith? no trades need to be made, until scott comes out of the slump we play Ozuna in LF and try to pick up our offense 1-9.

 

PS the true reason for scott's slump, Lisa Dergan is too much as for him to handle. shoota's got me on this one.

How does one loose faith?

[Controlled Chaos]

Look, no matter what you say, there is no way in hell that the 2005 team wins the World Series without Ozzie Guillen. I don't care what kind of spin you want to put on this.

 

>>>

 

Back to the point. Ozzie Guillen's vision of rebuilding the White Sox was the reason the team was even put in a position to win the division last year. It was Ozzie Guillen who demanded that Kenny reconstruct the roster around what he wanted - with more speed at the top of the lineup. Sure, KW went along with it, and made the moves, but as I understand it, the impetus was from Ozzie. And even though Podsednik basically sucks now, he was the catalyst of last year's lineup and a true leadoff hitter is the reason why we were able to succeed with players like Carl Everett and a one-legged Frank Thomas DHing. It was that style of play that won. Not Carlos Lee and a bunch of right handed beefcakes taking batting practice.

 

Love him or hate him now, Ozzie Guillen is the reason why we got Freddy Garcia to re-sign in Chicago. Without Freddy, we don't win the series last year.

 

It was under Ozzie Guillen's managing that Garland was able to finally live up to his potential, something that Jerry Manuel was never able to have faith in.

 

It was Ozzie Guillen who kept the team's motivation up. Whatever that means, you cannot deny that the team last year NEVER quit.

 

There are several more reasons why Guillen was invaluable.

 

Suddenly now, he's the worst manager to ever don a uniform and people are calling for his head. Yes, he has made some atrocious decisions this year. But to discount his impact last season is ludicrous. Absurdly ludicrous.

 

He may not last even one more season in Chicago, but I will never, ever for a second believe anything else but that Ozzie Guillen was one of the most important reasons the White Sox ever won the World Series. Everything had to go right for us to pull that off. And that includes the manager being the manager.

 

It honestly sickens me to read some of these posts.

 

I haven't seen any comments on this site stating that about the Anaheim series. Actually, I can't remember any posts that even refute your points. Who has argued that Ozzie didn't help us get Freddy and that Freddy didn't help last year? Who has argued that Garland hasn't excelled under Guillen by letting him pitch through trouble. Who has argued that the team quit last year?? Who has discounted his impact last year? I agree with your points and I think pretty much everyone here does too. I like Ozzie...I have a few issues with some of his decisions, but none of them have to do with last year.

[hammerhead johnson]

blah

[J-MAN]

Look, no matter what you say, there is no way in hell that the 2005 team wins the World Series without Ozzie Guillen. I don't care what kind of spin you want to put on this.

 

>>>

 

Back to the point. Ozzie Guillen's vision of rebuilding the White Sox was the reason the team was even put in a position to win the division last year. It was Ozzie Guillen who demanded that Kenny reconstruct the roster around what he wanted - with more speed at the top of the lineup. Sure, KW went along with it, and made the moves, but as I understand it, the impetus was from Ozzie. And even though Podsednik basically sucks now, he was the catalyst of last year's lineup and a true leadoff hitter is the reason why we were able to succeed with players like Carl Everett and a one-legged Frank Thomas DHing. It was that style of play that won. Not Carlos Lee and a bunch of right handed beefcakes taking batting practice.

 

Love him or hate him now, Ozzie Guillen is the reason why we got Freddy Garcia to re-sign in Chicago. Without Freddy, we don't win the series last year.

 

It was under Ozzie Guillen's managing that Garland was able to finally live up to his potential, something that Jerry Manuel was never able to have faith in.

 

It was Ozzie Guillen who kept the team's motivation up. Whatever that means, you cannot deny that the team last year NEVER quit.

 

There are several more reasons why Guillen was invaluable.

 

Suddenly now, he's the worst manager to ever don a uniform and people are calling for his head. Yes, he has made some atrocious decisions this year. But to discount his impact last season is ludicrous. Absurdly ludicrous.

 

He may not last even one more season in Chicago, but I will never, ever for a second believe anything else but that Ozzie Guillen was one of the most important reasons the White Sox ever won the World Series. Everything had to go right for us to pull that off. And that includes the manager being the manager.

 

It honestly sickens me to read some of these posts.

 

 

 

Amen to that!!!

 

Sox won the first World Series in my lifetime - no matter what happens I will never forget that!!!!!

 

And who says it can't happen again.

 

[southsideirish71]

i absolutley agree. half this forum is nothing but fair-whether fans, and thats including many of the guys with a lot of posts too. last year, you guys sing our teams praises, we dance in the streets, world series yada yada yada. this year, Podsednik sucks we need to replace him. hell i saw threads sugesting the likes of Dave f***ing Roberts. come on people. we've seen what scotty (and the rest of the team for that matter) can do but he hits a rut and you loose all faith? no trades need to be made, until scott comes out of the slump we play Ozuna in LF and try to pick up our offense 1-9.

 

PS the true reason for scott's slump, Lisa Dergan is too much as for him to handle. shoota's got me on this one.

 

 

Lets take a gander at Scotty Pods year so far and lets see when he can come out of his slump.

 

In April Mr. Dergan hit .233 with a .281 OBP.

In May he hit .318 with a .443 OBP.

In June he hit .245 with a .318OBP

In July he hit .287 with a .330 OBP

In August he hit .217 with a .284 OBP

In September he so far has hit .214 with a .214OBP

 

 

So we have April, June, August and September as been horrible horrible rotten months as a leadoff hitter.

 

And you have one good month in May, and then an average month in July with miserable OBP for a leadoff hitter.

 

This isnt a rut, this is a year based rotten performance, spiked by one good month.

 

I thank Scott Pods for hitting the game winning homer in Game 2. I was one of the 40k people in the cold, rain with a rain pouncho over my winter coat happy and I couldnt believe it. However last year is over, and we are not in 2005. This year his performance isnt acceptable, and he doesnt have a major league track record for success at this level. People need to realize that players come and go. Its not like Scotty Pods came up through the organization, was here for 10 years, etc etc. As an organization, we try to get the best out of a player, but when that player starts to fail, they hit the eject seat pretty quick. Fans need to remember they can do the same thing. Look how sentimental Kenny was in the offseason.

Edited September 7, 2006 by southsideirish71

[Hideaway Lights]

Controlled Chaos,

 

 

http://www.soxtalk.com/forums/index.php?sh...54162&st=45

 

What would you think of Ozzie had we not won it all last year? Because if A.J. isn't given 1st base for no reason in game 2, we very well might have fallen short of the AL Pennant and World Title. What would you think of Ozzie had we not gotten lucky that night, and thus not won it all?

 

and later on the next page by the same guy

 

http://www.soxtalk.com/forums/index.php?sh...54162&st=60

 

We wouldn't have made the series if we lost that game though, that's the point. And we weren't lucky champs, but I'm just saying if that one play in "a game of inches" goes different, we might not even make the World Series. And if your letting your opinion of Ozzie be based on 1 play like that, I don't get it. It should be about his long term resume and how he manages a team, which isn't looking too good right now.

 

another guy, same thread, later on:

 

http://www.soxtalk.com/forums/index.php?sh...54162&st=90

 

Last year he handed the ball off to the starters in the playoffs and they carried the torch. Jerry Manuel could have done that job. He didn't have to manage anything in the playoffs, and his moves during the season were very suspect.

 

Ozzie isn't responsible for bringing a title to the city of chicago. The White Sox organization is. Until people stop correlating ozzie and a WS title at a high rate, he'll always get a free pass in this town from the media and the "new" group of fans we now have.

 

The debate in that thread is appalling, cc. I could go on and find other examples, I'm sure.

 

Oh yeah, and btw: Jerry Manuel could NOT have done that job. He'd be still standing on the mound in the 7th inning of game 2 of the ALCS waiting for Wunsch to somehow come in.

Edited September 7, 2006 by Hideaway Lights

[whitesoxfan101]

If ignorance is truly bliss, this is the happiest thread in the history of the site. Oh, and fair weather means you only care when they are good, not being a crazy die hard who doesn't like stupidity. That is all.

[hammerhead johnson]

Oh yeah, and btw: Jerry Manuel could NOT have done that job.

 

Is that supposed to be like a definitive statement or something?

 

You know this for sure?

[witesoxfan]

Is that supposed to be like a definitive statement or something?

 

You know this for sure?

 

hammer, hypothetical here.

 

Pretend JM's managing the Sox this year. What's our record?

[whitesoxfan101]

hammer, hypothetical here.

 

Pretend JM's managing the Sox this year. What's our record?

 

Jerry didn't trust his staters nearly as much as Ozzie does, so that's several more wins off the bat.

[Controlled Chaos]

Controlled Chaos,

http://www.soxtalk.com/forums/index.php?sh...54162&st=45

and later on the next page by the same guy

 

http://www.soxtalk.com/forums/index.php?sh...54162&st=60

another guy, same thread, later on:

 

http://www.soxtalk.com/forums/index.php?sh...54162&st=90

The debate in that thread is appalling, cc. I could go on and find other examples, I'm sure.

 

Oh yeah, and btw: Jerry Manuel could NOT have done that job. He'd be still standing on the mound in the 7th inning of game 2 of the ALCS waiting for Wunsch to somehow come in.

 

I pretty much stayed out of that thread. Thanks for showing me the posts.

[witesoxfan]

Jerry didn't trust his staters nearly as much as Ozzie does, so that's several more wins off the bat.

 

Personally, it's hard for me to say. Jerry fuggin hated Garland it seemed, so I'm not sure he'd ever get his confidence built up to where it is now.

 

However, if we were to throw that aside, I think you are looking at a team in first place by probably two games. For how completely horrible Jerry Manuel was, he actually knows how to manage a bullpen.

[whitesoxfan101]

Personally, it's hard for me to say. Jerry fuggin hated Garland it seemed, so I'm not sure he'd ever get his confidence built up to where it is now.

 

However, if we were to throw that aside, I think you are looking at a team in first place by probably two games. For how completely horrible Jerry Manuel was, he actually knows how to manage a bullpen.

 

Agreed on all counts. If we had a manager that could manage a pen AND make a proper lineup (which to be fair, Jerry couldn't do either), I think we could have half a dozen more wins right now.

[Hideaway Lights]

If ignorance is truly bliss, this is the happiest thread in the history of the site. Oh, and fair weather means you only care when they are good, not being a crazy die hard who doesn't like stupidity. That is all.

 

I'd like to think this was supposed to make sense

[hammerhead johnson]

hammer, hypothetical here.

 

Pretend JM's managing the Sox this year. What's our record?

 

No idea.

 

But I know that the Dallas Cowboys won a Super Bowl with Dave Wannstedt calling all of the shots on defense.

 

I'm just saying: Teams can win in spite of their managers/decision makers in a lot of cases. Ozzie is nothing special, and neither was Jerry.