Ozzie haters

[sircaffey]

That's just flat-out wrong. Manuel had a very good staff in 2000 (Sirotka, Baldwin, Eldred, Parque, Foulke, Wunch) and another solid one in 2003 (Loaiza, Buehrle, Colon, Marte, Wunch, Gordon). Nice try.

 

What? 2000's was mediocre at best even with some career years. Eldred got injured. Baldwin had a miracle first half. Parque was the Game 1 SP in the playoffs for god sake. The staff was definitely no where near "very good."

 

Sirotka- 3.79 era

Baldwin- 4.65 era

Eldred- 4.58 era

Parque- 4.28 era

5th SP- bad

 

Mediocre might even be an overstatement with that rotation

 

 

I am not a fan of Manuel, but his pitching staffs were never very good. They may have had a few good pitchers, but there was never stability due to huge holes in the rotation.

Edited September 7, 2006 by sircaffey

[witesoxfan]

Manuel had a very good staff in 2000 (Sirotka, Baldwin, Eldred, Parque, Foulke, Wunch)

 

LOL

 

One starter with an ERA under 4 is a very good staff? One? C'mon

 

Also, if you are going to start mentioning relievers, why not mention Foulke, Howry, Simas, Barcelo, Buehrle, and hell, even Sean Lowe pitched pretty well down the stretch.

 

and another solid one in 2003 (Loaiza, Buehrle, Colon, Marte, Wunch, Gordon).

 

Lack of a 5th starter didn't help. Dan Wright, Josh Stewart, Neal Cotts, and Mike Porzio?

 

 

Manuel had good pitching; Manuel never had pitching as good as Ozzie has.

[WHarris1]

half this forum is nothing but fair-whether fans, and thats including many of the guys with a lot of posts too.

Get a f***ing clue.

[StrangeSox]

"It is easy to question a manager's in game decisions after they are made. Hindsight is 20/20."

 

Plenty of people complain about his decisions before/ as they are being made, not after they've already backfired.

[BigSqwert]

Get a f***ing clue.

And a dictionary too.

 

fair-whether??

[shoota]

Look, no matter what you say, there is no way in hell that the 2005 team wins the World Series without Ozzie Guillen. I don't care what kind of spin you want to put on this.

 

>>>

 

Back to the point. Ozzie Guillen's vision of rebuilding the White Sox was the reason the team was even put in a position to win the division last year. It was Ozzie Guillen who demanded that Kenny reconstruct the roster around what he wanted - with more speed at the top of the lineup. Sure, KW went along with it, and made the moves, but as I understand it, the impetus was from Ozzie. And even though Podsednik basically sucks now, he was the catalyst of last year's lineup and a true leadoff hitter is the reason why we were able to succeed with players like Carl Everett and a one-legged Frank Thomas DHing. It was that style of play that won. Not Carlos Lee and a bunch of right handed beefcakes taking batting practice.

 

Love him or hate him now, Ozzie Guillen is the reason why we got Freddy Garcia to re-sign in Chicago. Without Freddy, we don't win the series last year.

 

It was under Ozzie Guillen's managing that Garland was able to finally live up to his potential, something that Jerry Manuel was never able to have faith in.

 

It was Ozzie Guillen who kept the team's motivation up. Whatever that means, you cannot deny that the team last year NEVER quit.

 

There are several more reasons why Guillen was invaluable.

 

Suddenly now, he's the worst manager to ever don a uniform and people are calling for his head. Yes, he has made some atrocious decisions this year. But to discount his impact last season is ludicrous. Absurdly ludicrous.

 

He may not last even one more season in Chicago, but I will never, ever for a second believe anything else but that Ozzie Guillen was one of the most important reasons the White Sox ever won the World Series. Everything had to go right for us to pull that off. And that includes the manager being the manager.

 

It honestly sickens me to read some of these posts.

 

You make some good points, like helping construct the World Championship roster and getting Freddy G, but that doesn't mean he's the best manager for the 2006 Sox or any future Sox team.

[WHarris1]

And a dictionary too.

 

fair-whether??

[WCSox]

What? 2000's was mediocre at best even with some career years. Eldred got injured. Baldwin had a miracle first half. Parque was the Game 1 SP in the playoffs for god sake. The staff was definitely no where near "very good."

 

Sirotka- 3.79 era

Baldwin- 4.65 era

Eldred- 4.58 era

Parque- 4.28 era

5th SP- bad

 

Mediocre might even be an overstatement with that rotation

I am not a fan of Manuel, but his pitching staffs were never very good. They may have had a few good pitchers, but there was never stability due to huge holes in the rotation.

 

Sorry, I meant to put the "very good" label on the '03 staff (although I'll argue that Sirotka and Foulke were definitely "very good" in 2000). They were certainly a solid staff overall, with the bullpen being the strong point. You could've taken three of those starters into the playoffs and had some success.

 

But let's get this "Manuel didn't have any pitching to work with" crap out of the way. Manuel's staff in 2003 was strong...

 

Loaiza: 2.90 ERA

Colon: 3.87 ERA

Buehrle: 4.14 ERA

Marte: 1.58 ERA

Wunsch: 2.75 ERA

Gordon: 3.16 ERA

 

Combine that staff with a healthy and productive Frank, Maggs, Carlos, Paulie, and Valentin and you have a team that was arguably better than this year's squad. Yet, those guys only managed to win 86 games. This team has already won 80 and will likely finish with 90-95 wins. Ozzie has definitely gotten more out of this year's squad than Manuel did out of the '03 team.

[GoRowand33]

hmm I don't ever remember any of your points being argued against

 

its a good rampage, but I think the rage on the board from ozzie is directed at some questionable moves last year, and everybody praises him highly from last year

[qwerty]

Why do threads constantly suck now?

[Kalapse]

Why do threads constantly suck now?

Because you havn't started one in 6 months.

[witesoxfan]

Sorry, I meant to put the "very good" label on the '03 staff (although I'll argue that Sirotka and Foulke were definitely "very good" in 2000). They were certainly a solid staff overall, with the bullpen being the strong point. You could've taken three of those starters into the playoffs and had some success.

 

But let's get this "Manuel didn't have any pitching to work with" crap out of the way. Manuel's staff in 2003 was strong...

 

Loaiza: 2.90 ERA

Colon: 3.87 ERA

Buehrle: 4.14 ERA

Marte: 1.58 ERA

Wunsch: 2.75 ERA

Gordon: 3.16 ERA

 

Combine that staff with a healthy and productive Frank, Maggs, Carlos, Paulie, and Valentin and you have a team that was arguably better than this year's squad. Yet, those guys only managed to win 86 games. This team has already won 80 and will likely finish with 90-95 wins. Ozzie has definitely gotten more out of this year's squad than Manuel did out of the '03 team.

 

Jon Garland, much mediocrity.

Porzio's Whorzio's, much suckitude.

Bullpen past Marte, Gordon, and LOOGY, much suckitude.

 

This year's pitching staff is ridiculously better than 2003's. There is no comparison. This year's staff is deeper and better.

[WCSox]

Jon Garland, much mediocrity.

Porzio's Whorzio's, much suckitude.

Bullpen past Marte, Gordon, and LOOGY, much suckitude.

 

This year's pitching staff is ridiculously better than 2003's. There is no comparison. This year's staff is deeper and better.

 

LOL, based on what? Certainly not productivity...

 

Contreras: 4.09 ERA

Garland: 4.37 ERA

Buehrle: 4.71 ERA

Vazquez: 4.80 ERA

Garcia: 5.10 ERA

 

None of these guys are at Loaiza or Colon's level in '03. It's not even close.

 

I'd rather go into the playoffs with the '03 incarnations of Loaiza, Colon, and Buehrle than any three of our current inconsistent/over-the-hill starters.

[witesoxfan]

LOL, based on what? Certainly not productivity...

 

Contreras: 4.09 ERA

Garland: 4.37 ERA

Buehrle: 4.71 ERA

Vazquez: 4.80 ERA

Garcia: 5.10 ERA

 

None of these guys are at Loaiza or Colon's level in '03. It's not even close.

 

I'd rather go into the playoffs with the '03 incarnations of Loaiza, Colon, and Buehrle than any three of our current inconsistent/over-the-hill starters.

 

I wouldn't. Garland's lights out, Vazquez has turned a corner, and then I'm taking my chances with 2 of 3 other guys who all have World Series rings.

[WCSox]

I wouldn't. Garland's lights out, Vazquez has turned a corner, and then I'm taking my chances with 2 of 3 other guys who all have World Series rings.

 

Agreed on Garland. But as for the rest, Vazquez has sucked for most of the season, Contreras and Buehrle have been maddeningly inconsistent (and possibly injured), and Freddy's arm is about to fall off.

[CWSGuy406]

How did that power lineup of Frank, Maggs, Konerko, Lee, Valetin, and Crede fare in the 2000 playoffs?

 

You don't win games by sitting back and waiting for the three-run HR.

 

LOL, did you watch the playoffs last year? I'd say for every game but the last one, the Sox were aided by the longball.

 

And which manager told Kenny Williams to trade for a base-stealing leadoff hitter? I'll give you a hint: It wasn't Jerry Manuel.

 

Yep, and you're seeing the true talent of that scrappy, base-stealing leadoff hitter this year.

 

And, BTW, I think the main reason the Sox got shut down in the playoffs was because it was because they weren't hot when the playoffs started. They came into the playoffs having lost six of their last eight games. You really can't take much from a five-game set, as anything can happen. Most times, the team that comes in hotter wins.

 

I think they were also starting to show their true colors. I mean, look at that team in retrospect -- Parque, Sirotka, Eldred, and Baldwin. Almost makes you laugh a little bit in retrospect.

 

Btw, I'm not defending Manuel. I didn't follow the team with a close enough eye to see his whole tenure with the Sox. Generally, I think people tend to give managers way too much credit w/r/t the outcome of a game. Usually, talent will win out. If our pitching was halfway decent this year, sure, there'd still be some b****ing about Ozzie using Mack in the wrongs spots and other small things like that, but it wouldn't be close to the level that it's at right now.

Edited September 7, 2006 by CWSGuy406

[WCSox]

LOL, did you watch the playoffs last year? I'd say for every game but the last one, the Sox were aided by the longball.

 

I never said that they weren't. The difference is that the '05 Sox could score runs in other ways.

 

And apparently you missed the 2000 playoffs where the "prolific" Sox offense couldn't hit a long ball to save their lives.

 

Yep, and you're seeing the true talent of that scrappy, base-stealing leadoff hitter this year.

 

Way to ignore what Pods did prior to the injury last August. He was a major reason that our low-OBP offense scored runs last season.

[Kalapse]

Agreed on Garland. But as for the rest, Vazquez has sucked for most of the season, Contreras and Buehrle have been maddeningly inconsistent (and possibly injured), and Freddy's arm is about to fall off.

Vazquez has been pretty good for 3 months and horrid for 2, so he has not sucked for most of the season, he's actually been pretty good for a majority of the year.

 

ERAs by Month:

April: 3.67

May: 3.99

June: 7.50

July: 6.82

August: 3.41

September: 1.13

[CWSGuy406]

Way to ignore what Pods did prior to the injury last August. He was a major reason that our low-OBP offense scored runs last season.

 

Yes -- he was the catalyst of an offense that ranked ninth in the AL in runs scored. Which is to say, he was the catalyst to a below average offense.

 

I can't believe there are still people out there who think last year's offense was in any way, shape, or form, good. The best thing I could say about the offense it that we were able to 'get by with it' because of our stellar pitching.

 

Here, want me to say it one more time? Maybe it'll sink in then?

 

Yes -- he was the catalyst of an offense that ranked ninth in the AL in runs scored. Which is to say, he was the catalyst to a below average offense.

 

I can't believe there are still people out there who think last year's offense was in any way, shape, or form, good. The best thing I could say about the offense it that we were able to 'get by with it' because of our stellar pitching.

 

Get.a.clue.

[Kalapse]

It's sort of surprising to see how many people want Vaz gone OVER Freddy. I guess that much doesnt surprise me anymore on Soxtalk, but....

It kind of reminds me of the whole Jim Thome "clutchiness"/"he stole the small ball" situation.

[whitesoxfan99]

Way to ignore what Pods did prior to the injury last August. He was a major reason that our low-OBP offense scored runs last season.

 

Our offense was bad last year and I'd say that the major reason we scored runs was that we were 4th in the AL in HR.

[fathom]

80 runs for a leadoff hitter in the AL isn't exactly being a catalyst.

[WCSox]

Here, want me to say it one more time? Maybe it'll sink in then?

Get.a.clue.

 

You're the one who needs to "get a clue" because I never said that last year's offense was "good in any way, shape or form." I said that Pods' ability to steal bases helped a team with a laughably-low OBP manufacture runs. Is that not accuate?

 

Grow up.

 

 

Our offense was bad last year and I'd say that the major reason we scored runs was that we were 4th in the AL in HR.

 

There's no denying that. Pods' ability to distract pitchers while on base also played a role.

[Wanne]

I'll give Ozzie his due for maintaning the chemistry portion of the team...which was very important last year. But this year...how can you not see he's made some really boneheaded moves at times...maybe just out of shear stubborness or like someone said...his dumb as a fox mentality. Between sticking with Pods too long...handling of the bullpen...and sticking Mack in CF...geez-us...theorectically it's probably cost us at least 6 or 7 games.

[gosox41]

Look, no matter what you say, there is no way in hell that the 2005 team wins the World Series without Ozzie Guillen. I don't care what kind of spin you want to put on this.

 

>>>

 

Back to the point. Ozzie Guillen's vision of rebuilding the White Sox was the reason the team was even put in a position to win the division last year. It was Ozzie Guillen who demanded that Kenny reconstruct the roster around what he wanted - with more speed at the top of the lineup. Sure, KW went along with it, and made the moves, but as I understand it, the impetus was from Ozzie. And even though Podsednik basically sucks now, he was the catalyst of last year's lineup and a true leadoff hitter is the reason why we were able to succeed with players like Carl Everett and a one-legged Frank Thomas DHing. It was that style of play that won. Not Carlos Lee and a bunch of right handed beefcakes taking batting practice.

 

Love him or hate him now, Ozzie Guillen is the reason why we got Freddy Garcia to re-sign in Chicago. Without Freddy, we don't win the series last year.

 

It was under Ozzie Guillen's managing that Garland was able to finally live up to his potential, something that Jerry Manuel was never able to have faith in.

 

It was Ozzie Guillen who kept the team's motivation up. Whatever that means, you cannot deny that the team last year NEVER quit.

 

There are several more reasons why Guillen was invaluable.

 

Suddenly now, he's the worst manager to ever don a uniform and people are calling for his head. Yes, he has made some atrocious decisions this year. But to discount his impact last season is ludicrous. Absurdly ludicrous.

 

He may not last even one more season in Chicago, but I will never, ever for a second believe anything else but that Ozzie Guillen was one of the most important reasons the White Sox ever won the World Series. Everything had to go right for us to pull that off. And that includes the manager being the manager.

 

It honestly sickens me to read some of these posts.

 

Agreed. Ozzie is the best manager this team has seen in a long, long time. No one is going to agree with all his moves but for those who are crying about this or that, think of they Jerry Manuel and Terry Bevinton days.

 

 

Bob