Ozzie haters

[whitesoxfan101]

I'd like to think this was supposed to make sense

 

The feeling is mutual in regards to many of your posts.

 

As much as Jerry was lame, if you gave Ozzie some of the pens that Jerry had to deal with, we'd get beat late in just about every game.

[Hideaway Lights]

Choose one:

 

Jerry Manuel - 65% shot to win last year's world series, and 100% chance of 1st place this year

 

Ozzie Guillen - world series last year, current set of events

 

I'm sorry, but saying Manuel and Guillen would've managed things the same is just ignorant.

 

Let me ask you this.

 

Would Manuel have brought Buehrle in to close a World Series game? Hell no. It was the right call.

 

Jerry Manuel loses game 3 of the WS every day of the week, IMO.

[whitesoxfan101]

Choose one:

 

Jerry Manuel - 65% shot to win last year's world series, and 100% chance of 1st place this year

 

Ozzie Guillen - world series last year, current set of events

 

I'm sorry, but saying Manuel and Guillen would've managed things the same is just ignorant.

 

Let me ask you this.

 

Would Manuel have brought Buehrle in to close a World Series game? Hell no. It was the right call.

 

Jerry Manuel loses game 3 of the WS every day of the week, IMO.

 

Well obviously there are certain senarios where one would do better than the other, but overall I think things would tend to lean towards Jerry in terms of how he manages a team. I won't debate this one much further though, I think that overall they both blow, and for people to keep bringing up Jerry and Bevington and such is silly. The White Sox have had a lot of poor managers, and Ozzie is included in that group. He did a good enough job to not screw up anything last year, but I still think that you can only win in spite of Ozzie, not because of him, and that that fact if very obvious.

Edited September 7, 2006 by whitesoxfan101

[hammerhead johnson]

I'm sorry, but saying Manuel and Guillen would've managed things the same is just ignorant.

 

Let me ask you this.

 

Would Manuel have brought Buehrle in to close a World Series game? Hell no. It was the right call.

 

Jerry Manuel loses game 3 of the WS every day of the week, IMO.

 

Is that the definitive evidence?

 

You keep falling into the same trap.

[fathom]

Would Manuel have brought Buehrle in to close a World Series game? Hell no. It was the right call.

 

Jerry Manuel loses game 3 of the WS every day of the week, IMO.

 

Game 3 likely doesn't go into extra innings if Ozzie didn't make the terrible decision to bring in Hermanson to face Jason Lane in the 8th inning. Hermanson hadn't pitched in about 3 weeks, and he clearly had nothing left at that point in the season.

[Hideaway Lights]

Okay how about this trap:

 

Ozzie won the world series last year, true or false?

Manuel couldn't even win a friggin' playoff GAME.

[Kalapse]

Game 3 likely doesn't go into extra innings if Ozzie didn't make the terrible decision to bring in Hermanson to face Jason Lane in the 8th inning. Hermanson hadn't pitched in about 3 weeks, and he clearly had nothing left at that point in the season.

YES! I was just about to post that, it sure seemed like a sentamental with Guillen going to Hermanson late in the game. It made no sense at the time and it makes even less sense now.

 

Okay how about this trap:

 

Ozzie won the world series last year, true or false?

Manuel couldn't even win a friggin' playoff GAME.

When did Manuel ever have a pitching staff anywhere near to what Ozzie had last year?

[BigSqwert]

Okay how about this trap:

 

Ozzie won the world series last year, true or false?

Manuel couldn't even win a friggin' playoff GAME.

I didn't realize that Jerry had the same exact team that Ozzie had last year but somehow failed with them. Apples and oranges my friend.

[Soxbadger]

Manuel and Guillen are completely different types of managers, its basically comparing apples and oranges.

 

Now the guy I wanted for the Sox job was Leyland, and i think that it would be hard to argue Ozzie is better than him.

 

Ozzie brings fire to a club, but it can only take you so far. Some times you need a tactician, and for better or worse Ozzie still does not have that aspect of the game down.

[whitesoxfan101]

Okay how about this trap:

 

Ozzie won the world series last year, true or false?

Manuel couldn't even win a friggin' playoff GAME.

 

Assumptions aren't good. What if Manuel managed us in '04 and '05, and Ozzie did all the Manuel years instead. Who's to say things don't go the same anyways.

[hammerhead johnson]

Okay how about this trap:

 

Ozzie won the world series last year, true or false?

Manuel couldn't even win a friggin' playoff GAME.

 

You can't make a statement like that either, because the 2005 personnel was COMPLETELY different from what Manuel had during his tenure. It's not even funny.

[WCSox]

When did Manuel ever have a pitching staff anywhere near to what Ozzie had last year?

 

When did Manuel's players ever successfully bunt or steal bases?

[Hideaway Lights]

Jerry Manuel had a chance to win all three playoff games he was involved in, and there were questionable moves in all three.

[whitesoxfan101]

YES! I was just about to post that, it sure seemed like a sentamental with Guillen going to Hermanson late in the game. It made no sense at the time and it makes even less sense now.

 

That move and Marte in game 3 at Boston were 2 of the worst effin' moves I've ever seen a manager make in the playoffs. That was blind luck we got away with both of them (Geoff Blum in the 14th, the El Duque inning).

[fathom]

Okay how about this trap:

 

Ozzie won the world series last year, true or false?

Manuel couldn't even win a friggin' playoff GAME.

 

Ozzie was the manager when the Sox won the WS, and we'll always appreciate him for that. Many great managers have won the WS, and many crappy managers have also won the WS. However, if Ozzie wanted to be remembered for only winning the WS, he would have retired after last season. This is a new year, and he needs to be responsible for the day-to-day decisions he's making on and off the field. It's very eerie how similar the Ozzie/Ditka comparisons are right now.

[Hideaway Lights]

Of course, whenever Ozzie puts players in and they fail, it's his fault for putting them in, but whenever Jerry puts a player in, it's probably the player's fault for not performing.

[whitesoxfan101]

Ozzie was the manager when the Sox won the WS, and we'll always appreciate him for that. Many great managers have won the WS, and many crappy managers have also won the WS. However, if Ozzie wanted to be remembered for only winning the WS, he would have retired after last season. This is a new year, and he needs to be responsible for the day-to-day decisions he's making on and off the field. It's very eerie how similar the Ozzie/Ditka comparisons are right now.

 

It's even scarier because a lot of Bears fans STILL think Ditka was a great coach, when in reality he was a pretty bad one.

[fathom]

When did Manuel's players ever successfully bunt or steal bases?

 

Then why doesn't Ozzie get blamed for the terrible base running we're seeing this year, and the horrific bunting we've had?

[whitesoxfan101]

Of course, whenever Ozzie puts players in and they fail, it's his fault for putting them in, but whenever Jerry puts a player in, it's probably the player's fault for not performing.

 

Let me again make myself clear: Both are BAD managers, but Jerry would be a bit better with this team IMO simply because Jerry just stayed the hell out of the way and did nothing, something this team often times needs. Plus, he knew when to take a starter out (outside of his lack of trust in Garland), something Ozzie doesn't.

[fathom]

Of course, whenever Ozzie puts players in and they fail, it's his fault for putting them in, but whenever Jerry puts a player in, it's probably the player's fault for not performing.

 

Were you around during the Manuel era? He was blasted every single game, and the biggest complaints were about his tinkering and about the lack of intensity. I don't think anyone is saying he's the greatest manager on the planet. On a team with equal talent, I would take Ozzie over Manuel.

Edited September 7, 2006 by fathom

[NorthSideSox72]

It's even scarier because a lot of Bears fans STILL think Ditka was a great coach, when in reality he was a pretty bad one.

That's actually a really good analogy. There are a lot of parallels between Ditka and Ozzie, both good and bad.

[Dick Allen]

Personally, it's hard for me to say. Jerry fuggin hated Garland it seemed, so I'm not sure he'd ever get his confidence built up to where it is now.

 

However, if we were to throw that aside, I think you are looking at a team in first place by probably two games. For how completely horrible Jerry Manuel was, he actually knows how to manage a bullpen.

If Ozzie was the reason Garland was better, how come Garland had better numbers his last year with Manuel than his first year with Ozzie? Garland just matured.

[Hideaway Lights]

Let me again make myself clear: Both are BAD managers, but Jerry would be a bit better with this team IMO simply because Jerry just stayed the hell out of the way and did nothing, something this team often times needs. Plus, he knew when to take a starter out (outside of his lack of trust in Garland), something Ozzie doesn't.

 

Okay, so when would Manuel have removed each starter for games 2 through 5 of the ALCS last year?

 

That was my whole point. That he WOULDN'T have just handed the ball to the starter.

[NorthSideSox72]

If Ozzie was the reason Garland was better, how come Garland had better numbers his last year with Manuel than his first year with Ozzie? Garland just matured.

Actually, I think that proves the point exactly. Garland was babied by Manuel. Ozzie leaves him out there, so at first, naturally he struggles. Then he learned. Garland would not have learned those skills under Manuel.

[whitesoxfan101]

Okay, so when would Manuel have removed each starter for games 2 through 5 of the ALCS last year?

 

That was my whole point. That he WOULDN'T have just handed the ball to the starter.

 

Buehrle was cruising in game 2, I highly doubt even Manuel would have taken him out. Games 3 and 4 were blowouts, and game 5 was when the Angels bullpen collapsed. So I don't see what difference it made, other than it meant our bullpen went into the World Series not having worked in forever, which could have really backfired.

 

Actually, I think that proves the point exactly. Garland was babied by Manuel. Ozzie leaves him out there, so at first, naturally he struggles. Then he learned. Garland would not have learned those skills under Manuel.

 

Yeah, Ozzie deserves a ton of credit for Garland, I think even the most anti Ozzie people out there would easily admit that.