Frank Thomas v. Jim Thome

[Reddy]

You are correct sir. They offered cash & a one way ticket to anywhere. Wasn't it $3M?

 

Guess I should have said that I don't think Frank would've accepted the same offer as he got from the A's if it would've come from the Sox (wasn't it a heavily incentivized league minimum?).

 

Thanks

 

pssst

 

Steff's not a sir...

[soxfan72]

pssst

 

Steff's not a sir...

 

Oooops

 

[witesoxfan]

isnt Frank only getting $1 mill this year? wow the A's gambled on him and its sure paying off. Lets hope Mr. White Sox and his A's destroy Minny these next 2 games!

 

Not sure what exactly he went on the DL for, but he is probably looking at a salary of anywhere from $2.775-3.1 mill on the season, due to incentives, and also assuming he can stay healthy enough to eclipse the 550 PA mark(and he should)

 

Frank Edward Thomas: signed deal for 2006 season worth $500K on 1/25/06- + he can earn $1.4M in roster bonuses if he is on the active major league roster or not on the DL related to a left foot injury: 325K each on May 1st and June 15th and 375K each on July 15th and Aug. 15th- + he can earn $1.2M in performance bonuses: 200K each for 300, 350, 400, 450, 500 and 550PA- + he receives a 50K bonus for Gold Glove award- + 2005 salary: 8M (+ 3.5M buyout), 2004: 6M, 2003: 5M - + bonuses he has earned: 15K for All-Star selection (2005), $1.025M in roster bonuses (All-Star break 2006), $220K for 300PA (2006)

[My Dixie Normus]

I will gladly back up my statement.

 

Thomas went on strike while building a multi-million dollar home with non-union labor. I could careless about the union thing but the hypocrisy was stupid.

 

Konerko was not the only player he did not get along with. I am not going to bother to dig up the details but you all know he had more than one run-in with other players on the team. Konerko had the balls to say what 23 other guys felt.

 

He pissed and moaned about his big contract since the day he signed it. To his credit, he never sat out.

 

For years, he refused to even consider hitting anything but third in the line-up. Even if it was good for the team.

 

The pissing match with Kenny was stupid on both their parts. But Thomas did not become unpopular with many fans and team mates only upon his departure. He never enjoyed much popularity despite being the best baseball player in the city his entire career here.

[Steff]

Backing up statements with opinions doesn't mean much when the facts dispute you.

 

The house building has nothing to do with his clubhouse manner. But for arguments sake... he hired a builder who used non union labor. He did not control what the builder did with his money.

 

Paul later apologized several times saying he was out of line.

 

How do you know what other players thought, and for s***s and giggles... who are those other players?

 

His contract b****ing had nothing to do with his relationships with his teammates.

 

Frank enjoyed plenty of popularity where it counted. At his home yard. And he paid the fans who supported him 10 fold. Just because he didn't bend over and kiss media ass ala Sammy Sosa has nothing to do with his behavior in the clubhouse.

[qwerty]

Stupid thome getting a one out hit in the fourth.

[fathom]

Backing up statements with opinions doesn't mean much when the facts dispute you.

 

The house building has nothing to do with his clubhouse manner. But for arguments sake... he hired a builder who used non union labor. He did not control what the builder did with his money.

 

Paul later apologized several times saying he was out of line.

 

How do you know what other players thought, and for s***s and giggles... who are those other players?

 

His contract b****ing had nothing to do with his relationships with his teammates.

 

Frank enjoyed plenty of popularity where it counted. At his home yard. And he paid the fans who supported him 10 fold. Just because he didn't bend over and kiss media ass ala Sammy Sosa has nothing to do with his behavior in the clubhouse.

 

What's your opinion of him saying he wouldn't have thrown out the first pitch of the ALDS if he knew he wouldn't be brought back, and that he wouldn't have celebrated with the team as much? Those are the only comments he's ever made which really pissed me off.

[My Dixie Normus]

His beefs with other players is well documented. He had more than one front page pissing match with managers and the front office. Suffice it to say, I was not a big fan of him off the field. On the field, the only criticism I have was that I thought we was too quick to take walks with runners in scoring position. There isn't much else to criticize obviously. I thought the guy was a whiney, me first jerk who was one hell of a tough out. Good for him and his success. But I will take Jim Thome in my clubhouse over Frank Thomas any day of the week.

[MSHAWKS]

His beefs with other players is well documented. He had more than one front page pissing match with managers and the front office. Suffice it to say, I was not a big fan of him off the field. On the field, the only criticism I have was that I thought we was too quick to take walks with runners in scoring position. There isn't much else to criticize obviously. I thought the guy was a whiney, me first jerk who was one hell of a tough out. Good for him and his success. But I will take Jim Thome in my clubhouse over Frank Thomas any day of the week.

 

 

If they're so well documented why don't you rehash them? Because they're a figment of your shallow imagination.

[Frank the Tank 35]

I do not even see this as a debate.

 

Jim thome has a an ops of 1.207 with risp this season.

 

Frank thomas has an ops of .968 with risp this season.

 

Does it surprise any that thomas has 22 home runs with no one on? Compared to his 14 with a runner on.

 

Thome has 21 with runners on compared to his 18 with no one on.

 

I always hear people complain that thome is not clutch and such. Thomas has 706 ops in close and late situations (50 ab's) compared to thome' s .900 ops (60ab's).

 

If you really want to complain about thome... you can point to his .250 average with no one on (still not a bad .915 ops). His s***ty .540 slugging in that situation would currently have him tied for 25 in all of baseball with grady sizemore.

 

Thomas was never coming back. It is plain and simple. We were obviously not picking up his contract. He would have never come back... do you think he would ever accept a 500k deal from the sox? He would have felt a team that he did so much for (he made a couple bucks along the way when he was injured... yet he forgets such things) should stick by his side and pay up. He has always thought he was underpaid and off-season would have been no different. I highly doubt either side was ever close this off-season.

 

I don't want to automatically assume you were addressing me, because you know what assuming does. However, since you used RISP stats reminiscent of my own, I'll take that as my queue...

 

I'm not sure if anybody here is debating the decision of replacing Frank with Jim. I think we all understand the logic (and pent up emotional rage) that went into that decision. And while it is true that we may gripe and bemoan how hot Frank is compared to Thome at the moment, we all understand that Jim has done a good job for us this season and provides valuable commodities to our offense.

 

That said, you brought out some numbers. You just had to bring the ruckus. Bear in mind that up until now I was not comparing Jim Thome to Frank Thomas. I was merely criticizing Jim for his lack of clutch hitting in the second half. Even now as I debunk your numbers, this is for comparison purposes only and does not reflect a hope upon hope that Bud Selig changes the rules of baseball for one magical star-crossed moment wherein we trade Jim to bring back the Hurt.

 

Thome was undoubtedly clutch in the first half. Fancy OBP+SLG=OPS statistics aside, he hit .388 with RISP. That's just plain getting it done. MLB average for BA with RISP is somewhere in the .270's for all hitters, pitchers included. The AL average is somewhere around the .280's.

 

However, my initial argument clearly included the perimeters RISP post-ASB. Our offense hasn't been the vaunted juggernaut of the first half that so menacingly carried the team. Sure Pods sucks, but when's the last time he didn't suck? I'm sure there are a myriad of causes, but Jim's a veteran hitter. He was brought in to be THE offensive leader, if/when healthy, in the clubhouse. Nobody thought JD was going to go off like he has. PK isn't the slugger Jim is or was. In a tight playoff race, a slugger with the reputation of Thome should not regularly be striking out or weakly grounding out to second with RISP the way he has. If you want to compare how Jim and Frank are doing in the second half with RISP while the playoffs loom eerily close, let's have at it:

 

Frank post-ASB RISP: .353/.434/.662 in 68 AB with 41 RBI, 7 HR, and 17 SINGLES

Jim post-ASB RISP: .235/.409/.529 in 34 AB with 11 RBI, 2 HR, 4 2B, and 2 singles

 

Frank has accumulated exactly twice as many ABs in this particular situation as Jim. Although it is not an exact science, I think we can agree the best way to compare would be to double Jim's numbers since it would keep that precious OPS number the same. That equates to:

 

Jim post-ASB RISP (x2): 68 AB with 22 RBI, 4 HR, 8 2B, 4 singles

 

I know what you're thinking. "So you're saying you can actually score runs hitting singles instead of trying to park it every time up?" Yes, that's exactly my point. How profound. "But wouldn't it totally make your SLG and hence your OPS go up if you just tried to uppercut swing everything into an XBH?" Well yes, if you were constantly making solid contact, something that would be increasingly difficult the harder you try to swing out of your shoes. "So how could you circumvent this problem and find a happy solution?" A good approach might be to try shortening up your swing when you have two strikes. Solid contact certainly has a better chance of driving in runs than rolling over on a pitch.

 

I have not been able to watch many Oakland games this year. Therefore, I cannot say with certainty that is what he is doing. If he's not, then shame on him, and he'll be slumping sooner rather than later. However, the numbers would suggest he is actually shortening up his swing and hitting singles with RISP in order to have a better chance at actually scoring runs. Even though he went 0-4 today, watching the ESPN highlights, it was clear that he was protecting the plate and nearly had two singles with RISP. But regardless of what Frank's doing, that is the approach I'd like to see Jim, as well as others, take into this final stretch.

 

In the end, the point that I'm trying to make is not Jim vs. Frank. It's Jim vs. Jim. Do better and get us in the darn playoffs.

Edited September 13, 2006 by Frank the Tank 35

[witesoxfan]

Frank post-ASB RISP: .353/.434/.662 in 68 AB with 41 RBI, 7 HR, and 17 SINGLES

Jim post-ASB RISP: .235/.409/.529 in 34 AB with 11 RBI, 2 HR, 4 2B, and 2 singles

 

There's a flaw, of course.

 

A 118 point disparity in average. A 25 point disparity in OBP.

 

Thomas has been better, there's no doubt...but it seems pitchers, most likely right-handed pitchers, are pitching around Thome a little bit. If you are getting nothing but bad pitches, why would you swing?

[Steff]

What's your opinion of him saying he wouldn't have thrown out the first pitch of the ALDS if he knew he wouldn't be brought back, and that he wouldn't have celebrated with the team as much? Those are the only comments he's ever made which really pissed me off.

 

 

I think we can all agree that Frank's never been one with a way for words...

 

With that said, I always separate the on field stuff from the off field stuff. It helps me enjoy the "game" more.

 

I do think he was FOS though, and speaking with emotion versus common sense.

 

 

 

 

 

His beefs with other players is well documented. He had more than one front page pissing match with managers and the front office. Suffice it to say, I was not a big fan of him off the field. On the field, the only criticism I have was that I thought we was too quick to take walks with runners in scoring position. There isn't much else to criticize obviously. I thought the guy was a whiney, me first jerk who was one hell of a tough out. Good for him and his success. But I will take Jim Thome in my clubhouse over Frank Thomas any day of the week.

 

 

First, what does a beef with his manager have to do with his relationship with teammates?

 

Second, who are these players? A google, ESPN.com, and Yahoo search is not supporting your assumptions.

 

Third, you can only criticize that he took walks too quickly - pending any sort of verification of the other stuff you are posting about ... and that equals him being a clubhouse cancer?

 

[Frank the Tank 35]

There's a flaw, of course.

 

A 118 point disparity in average. A 25 point disparity in OBP.

 

Thomas has been better, there's no doubt...but it seems pitchers, most likely right-handed pitchers, are pitching around Thome a little bit. If you are getting nothing but bad pitches, why would you swing?

 

Jim's OBP is pretty constant across the board. That's a positive indictment of his talent for sure. It's clear when he does swing, things aren't happening the way they did in the first half. I think it's contributed to the second half's feast-or-famine offense. Not JUST Jim, most of the team can take blame in that. Sure it's great to have a high SLG% in those situations, and maybe you can score not just one run at a time but several. However, when you're making a lot of outs in the process, there's a point where it becomes detrimental. Instead of moving the line, it kills rallies. Hence when we're taking big swings and making good contact, we massacre the competition. Of course, that's only been happening once or twice a week lately whereas it had been happening nearly daily in the first half. Our offense has been struggling to score runs because many of our hitters refuse to cut down on their swings and be satisfied with just getting a single or moving the line.

[MSHAWKS]

What's your opinion of him saying he wouldn't have thrown out the first pitch of the ALDS if he knew he wouldn't be brought back, and that he wouldn't have celebrated with the team as much? Those are the only comments he's ever made which really pissed me off.

 

fathom, I agree. This was the only thing Frank has ever said that bothered me.

[TLAK]

As someone who watched Frank’s entire career I have back Steff up, the only instance of a run in with another player I recall was David Wells saying he didn’t want to play hurt. Turned out Frank had a torn muscle and Wells had egg on his face. Jerry Manuel, in his wisdom, sent him home from Texas once because he thought Frank didn’t want to play, they found a bone spur the size of chicken wing in his ankle. Paulie called him out but later admitted he was the one in the wrong.

 

The media has been all over him, I think because he is such a good player they want him to be Johnny All-American. He is not politically correct, when he sat out a day ST and ranted about his performance clause and money compared to what comparable players were making, they skewered him, but Frank was telling the truth. He and KW had words this spring but if you’ve watched this thing, you’ve seen Williams trying to run him out of town since he took over.

 

Everybody wants Thomas to be something he isn’t. Frank is not is not a rah rah or, IMO, a clubhouse leader but he certainly doesn’t seem to be a cancer. He is just a great hitter. Accept him for what he is.

 

As to the comparisons between Thomas and Thome, you really should be comparing Thomas + Rowand to Thome + Anderson. Compare those numbers; compare that leadership when you decide who you would rather have.

[vandy125]

As to the comparisons between Thomas and Thome, you really should be comparing Thomas + Rowand to Thome + Anderson. Compare those numbers; compare that leadership when you decide who you would rather have.

 

If you are going to go that far in the comparison, do not forget to add Konerko to the equation since Thome was a reason that he signed. Who would the first baseman have been without Thome coming and Konerko signing as a result of that? Gload?

[TLAK]

If you are going to go that far in the comparison, do not forget to add Konerko to the equation since Thome was a reason that he signed. Who would the first baseman have been without Thome coming and Konerko signing as a result of that? Gload?

5 years $60 million guaranteed may also have been a factor in Konerko signing. Never believe ball players, its about the money. These guys have a short period of time to set up their families for generations to come. The LA offer was supposedly equal, the Baltimore one supposedly a little above but what doesn't make the newpapers is the terms of the deals and how they impact the real value of an offer to the player. I can't believe a player is going to turn down a superior offer just because he likes the guys. I call BS on that argument.

[Steff]

5 years $60 million guaranteed may also have been a factor in Konerko signing. Never believe ball players, its about the money. These guys have a short period of time to set up their families for generations to come. The LA offer was supposedly equal, the Baltimore one supposedly a little above but what doesn't make the newpapers is the terms of the deals and how they impact the real value of an offer to the player. I can't believe a player is going to turn down a superior offer just because he likes the guys. I call BS on that argument.

 

 

Seriously. Equal money, WS fame, and just having a baby who's momma's family is not about to let her take their first grandbaby further than the burbs... that's why he stayed.

[santo=dorf]

QUOTE(TLAK @ Sep 14, 2006 -> 08:46 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

5 years $60 million guaranteed may also have been a factor in Konerko signing. Never believe ball players, its about the money. These guys have a short period of time to set up their families for generations to come. The LA offer was supposedly equal, the Baltimore one supposedly a little above but what doesn't make the newpapers is the terms of the deals and how they impact the real value of an offer to the player. I can't believe a player is going to turn down a superior offer just because he likes the guys. I call BS on that argument.

Baltimore offered 5 years $65 million, an 8.333% increase. Konerko even said he was close to signing with the Angels, but the Thome showed him the Sox were dead serious about repeating.

 

Of course the Thome deal to Konerko could have also meant it was the final nail in the coffin for Frank with the Sox. Do you think Konerko would've re-signed with the Sox if Frank was brought back?

 

Would you rather have Thome-Konerko-Anderson, or Thomas-Rowand-Gload?

[Steve9347]

UPDATE

 

Frank Thomas

.280, 36, 98

17 games remaining

 

Jim Thome

.291, 39, 99

16 games remaining

[vandy125]

5 years $60 million guaranteed may also have been a factor in Konerko signing. Never believe ball players, its about the money. These guys have a short period of time to set up their families for generations to come. The LA offer was supposedly equal, the Baltimore one supposedly a little above but what doesn't make the newpapers is the terms of the deals and how they impact the real value of an offer to the player. I can't believe a player is going to turn down a superior offer just because he likes the guys. I call BS on that argument.

 

Regardless of what you say, Konerko has said that it was a factor for him. I would tend to believe what he says on his own decision more than what you believe. Sure, money is important, and we do not know all of the factors that came into the equation, but how can you so quickly dismiss the one factor that came straight from his mouth? I'm going to have to call BS on that.

[hammerhead johnson]

I would tend to believe what he says on his own decision more than what you believe.

 

Ahh, he's feeding you a line of crap. Same as it ever was.

 

And if the Thome trade set off something in this guy's brain and told him to stay DESPITE the fact that there was an enormous contract on the table AND we had just won a world series, then Konerko is country stupid.

[Steff]

Regardless of what you say, Konerko has said that it was a factor for him. I would tend to believe what he says on his own decision more than what you believe. Sure, money is important, and we do not know all of the factors that came into the equation, but how can you so quickly dismiss the one factor that came straight from his mouth? I'm going to have to call BS on that.

 

 

With your "call" on Frank being a cancer BS... pardon some of us if this call means not so much.

[Steff]

Ahh, he's feeding you a line of crap. Same as it ever was.

 

And if the Thome trade set off something in this guy's brain and told him to stay DESPITE the fact that there was an enormous contract on the table AND we had just won a world series, then Konerko is country stupid.

 

 

Well.. he did also say he consulted with his (at the time) 3 month old kid about the decision to stay...

[vandy125]

With your "call" on Frank being a cancer BS... pardon some of us if this call means not so much.

 

Ummm...I don't think that I have ever posted about Frank being or not being a cancer. IMO, from what I have heard, I do not think that he was a cancer at all, and he is still one of my favorite ball players. I grew up watching Frank, and he was what turned me into a Sox fan early on. So, thanks for dismissing my "call".