JUGGERNAUT Posted June 17, 2003 Share Posted June 17, 2003 I really want to know the answer. I think of all the years these players must have played baseball before reaching the MLs. How many instructors they must have had. How is it that they can go through all those years & then the CWS mLs & yet still reach MLB as fundamentally poor baseball players? Rowand misjudges balls hit over his head but before the warning track in CF. Rowand misjudges when he should & should not run from 2B. DAngelo is the bobble king of the IF this year. I think the team is butt ugly poor in base running. I think the catchers are butt ugly poor in blocking home plate. I expect fielding errors with these little leaguers but not base running & basic catcher fundamentals. HOW DOES THIS HAPPEN? HOW THE HELL DO WE FIX THIS? <- on Rowand for being butt ugly stupid. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winning Ugly Posted June 17, 2003 Share Posted June 17, 2003 I really want to know the answer. I think of all the years these players must have played baseball before reaching the MLs. How many instructors they must have had. How is it that they can go through all those years & then the CWS mLs & yet still reach MLB as fundamentally poor baseball players? Rowand misjudges balls hit over his head but before the warning track in CF. Rowand misjudges when he should & should not run from 2B. DAngelo is the bobble king of the IF this year. I think the team is butt ugly poor in base running. I think the catchers are butt ugly poor in blocking home plate. I expect fielding errors with these little leaguers but not base running & basic catcher fundamentals. HOW DOES THIS HAPPEN? HOW THE HELL DO WE FIX THIS? We hire Ozzie Smith to give fielding seminars. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wong & Owens Posted June 17, 2003 Share Posted June 17, 2003 I really want to know the answer. I think of all the years these players must have played baseball before reaching the MLs. How many instructors they must have had. How is it that they can go through all those years & then the CWS mLs & yet still reach MLB as fundamentally poor baseball players? Rowand misjudges balls hit over his head but before the warning track in CF. Rowand misjudges when he should & should not run from 2B. DAngelo is the bobble king of the IF this year. I think the team is butt ugly poor in base running. I think the catchers are butt ugly poor in blocking home plate. I expect fielding errors with these little leaguers but not base running & basic catcher fundamentals. HOW DOES THIS HAPPEN? HOW THE HELL DO WE FIX THIS? Don't forget bunting. For the love of god, don't forget bunting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texsox Posted June 17, 2003 Share Posted June 17, 2003 Accidents happen. Players get away from fundementals. When was the last time you saw a two handed catch in the outfield? Players want to be popular and need to develop some style. Old school baseball hasn't sold. Players are also becoming one dimensional and not just at DH. If you can hit 30 or 40 home runs a year you have a spot on any roster regardless if you can field your position or run the bases. Not many fans will pay to watch defense, sacrifice bunts, etc. You just have to be really great at one thing, have the team promote the s*** out of it and you have a career. Catching fly balls, hitting behind the runner, etc. doesn't make an exciting commercial. And of course we can blame expansion. Imagine 15 or 18 less major league outfielders. 30 less pitchers, etc. There are guys on MLB rosters that would have been in AAA and etc. years ago. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texsox Posted June 17, 2003 Share Posted June 17, 2003 I really want to know the answer. I think of all the years these players must have played baseball before reaching the MLs. How many instructors they must have had. How is it that they can go through all those years & then the CWS mLs & yet still reach MLB as fundamentally poor baseball players? Rowand misjudges balls hit over his head but before the warning track in CF. Rowand misjudges when he should & should not run from 2B. DAngelo is the bobble king of the IF this year. I think the team is butt ugly poor in base running. I think the catchers are butt ugly poor in blocking home plate. I expect fielding errors with these little leaguers but not base running & basic catcher fundamentals. HOW DOES THIS HAPPEN? HOW THE HELL DO WE FIX THIS? Don't forget bunting. For the love of god, don't forget bunting. Interleague play reminded me of that lost art. Nothing like watching pitchers bunting to add excitement to a game I held down the #2 position in the batting order by bunting, hitting behind the runner, high obp. One season I was 6 for 6 on suicide squeeze plays including two in one game. Later in the playoffs, with a runner on third and one out, the other team intentionaly walked me to get to our #3 batter who was hitting about a hundred points higher than me and actually had power They remembered getting burned for those two runs. We pulled off a perfect double steal and went on to win the game. Classic baseball. You won;t see stuff like that beyond high school ball. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cwsox Posted June 17, 2003 Share Posted June 17, 2003 Accidents happen. Players get away from fundementals. When was the last time you saw a two handed catch in the outfield? Players want to be popular and need to develop some style. Old school baseball hasn't sold. major league outfielders. 30 less pitchers, etc. There are guys on MLB rosters that would have been in AAA and etc. years ago. The last time? Was either when I showed my grandson how to amke a two handed catch and he thought was terribly old fashioned because he had never seen one in his life, or it was when we saw Ray Liotta as Shoeless Joe in Field of Dreams make a two handed catch of a ball hoit by Kevin Costner, and I pointed out to the kid that two handed catches once did actually exist, if only in my imagination and in films about a player from 1919. As for the rest, fundamentals have declined everywhere. May have to do with the use of aluminum bats in little league, high school, college... do kids ever leartn how to bunt with an aluminum bat? And the rest goes for the other skills - I wish the Sox were a better team on fundamentals and I wish that every year but I look at other teams and they do the same dumb things we do. Asd for Rowand misjudging the ball - that happens. Players do that. I thouight we have actually looked better in a ot of fundmental erorrs this season than in the previous two. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JUGGERNAUT Posted June 17, 2003 Author Share Posted June 17, 2003 Some of you are taking the "it's not just the WHITESOX" attitude, but I don't buy it. Look at the situational stats for every team in our division. We are the worst. I WANT ANSWERS! I WANT THE TRUTH! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texsox Posted June 17, 2003 Share Posted June 17, 2003 Some of you are taking the "it's not just the WHITESOX" attitude, but I don't buy it. Look at the situational stats for every team in our division. We are the worst. I WANT ANSWERS! I WANT THE TRUTH! We drink more then they do? We were busy building an offense. We drafted and promoted guys who's hitting abilities are stronger than their fielding. We can sell more tickets to a 10-6 game than a 2-1 game. Offense is the game today and JR is going to promote mlb's plan all the way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SI1020 Posted June 17, 2003 Share Posted June 17, 2003 Some of you are taking the "it's not just the WHITESOX" attitude, but I don't buy it. Look at the situational stats for every team in our division. We are the worst. I WANT ANSWERS! I WANT THE TRUTH! I'm with you on this one. Lots of good points here, but the Sox have driven me crazy the last 3 seasons with some really bad baseball fundementals, especially baserunning. I'm not close to the Minor League situation. Do we teach our young players anything? If so, how come they seem to forget once they get to the ML. Here is where coaching and managing can make a difference. Nardi and Wavin Wally anyone? Gary Ward? This is also a big reason why so many have lost faith in JM. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry Chappas Posted June 17, 2003 Share Posted June 17, 2003 Willie Harris catches with two hands as does Jose Valentin. As for magglio, it is jsut a matter of time before he pulls a Manny Ramirez. Let's hope it doesn't cost us. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cwsox Posted June 17, 2003 Share Posted June 17, 2003 Some of you are taking the "it's not just the WHITESOX" attitude, but I don't buy it. Look at the situational stats for every team in our division. We are the worst. I WANT ANSWERS! I WANT THE TRUTH! could you please post the stats? I woud like to see them! As far as Truth: there is no Truth, no universial unchanging Trith that transcends time and human history. As Pontiu Pilate sings in Jesus Christ Superstar, "what is the truth, some univeral unchanign law? what is the truth? Is mine the same as yours?" Be glad I didn't come back with the old "you can't handle the truth" line from A Few Good Men! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
upnorthsox Posted June 17, 2003 Share Posted June 17, 2003 What does the 2 hand catch have to do with baseball fundamentals? Shoeless in his first 4 full seasons had error totals of 12, 16, 18, and 7 in the OF. Carlos Lee in his first 4 full seasons had error totals of 4, 3, 8, and 1 in the OF. Who had the better fundy's????????? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texsox Posted June 17, 2003 Share Posted June 17, 2003 One factor that should point towards better fundementals is H.S. athletes now specialize way more than a generation ago. (Old guy talking) In my day everyone wanted to letter in three sports. The only reason someone did less was they sucked at every sport during one of the seasons. Now, at least here in Texas, kids are practicing, working out, going to camps, for one sport. A two sport athlete is something special, and if some kid tried to letter in three the coaches would go nuts. Each coach is trying to recruit kids to his program alone and doesn't want to share. That should mean kids are getting better training but they aren't. Perhaps fundementals aren't stressed in the countries that we import players from. Speaking of importing players, are we in a trade deficit regarding baseball players? I'm certain hockey is. We also seem to have a net gain in Basketball players with the US exporting more than we import. Football is a no brainer, I'm certain we export more than import. But baseball must be close to a trade balance in the majors. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JUGGERNAUT Posted June 17, 2003 Author Share Posted June 17, 2003 Some of you are taking the "it's not just the WHITESOX" attitude, but I don't buy it. Look at the situational stats for every team in our division. We are the worst. I WANT ANSWERS! I WANT THE TRUTH! Be glad I didn't come back with the old "you can't handle the truth" line from A Few Good Men! I was hoping you would! I'll post the situational stats a little later. It's not easy lining them up here, but I'll do what I can. Abysmal is the best way to describe it. Some we'll say we can't hit worth a lick & that explains it, but I don't buy that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texsox Posted June 17, 2003 Share Posted June 17, 2003 What does the 2 hand catch have to do with baseball fundamentals? Shoeless in his first 4 full seasons had error totals of 12, 16, 18, and 7 in the OF. Carlos Lee in his first 4 full seasons had error totals of 4, 3, 8, and 1 in the OF. Who had the better fundy's????????? Might not be a fair comparison. Equipment has changed. I wonder what Lee's stats would be with the tiny glove that Joe played with. Plus scorers today are encouraged to rule plays as hits not errors for fan appeal. Hits not errors mean better fielders and hitters, at least on the surface. Still a good point. Maybe we have set the standards higher. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cwsox Posted June 17, 2003 Share Posted June 17, 2003 I'll post the situational stats a little later. It's not easy lining them up here, but I'll do what I can. I ahve never seen those so it would be interesting to see, thanks in advance for your labor - in past years I have b****ed a lot about our poor fundamentals. What I have seen this year I thought we had improved a bit, a small bit, a tad bit. That is probably my biggest concern with JM is that we have not been a good executing team. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
upnorthsox Posted June 17, 2003 Share Posted June 17, 2003 What does the 2 hand catch have to do with baseball fundamentals? Shoeless in his first 4 full seasons had error totals of 12, 16, 18, and 7 in the OF. Carlos Lee in his first 4 full seasons had error totals of 4, 3, 8, and 1 in the OF. Who had the better fundy's????????? Might not be a fair comparison. Equipment has changed. I wonder what Lee's stats would be with the tiny glove that Joe played with. Plus scorers today are encouraged to rule plays as hits not errors for fan appeal. Hits not errors mean better fielders and hitters, at least on the surface. Still a good point. Maybe we have set the standards higher. Might not be a fair comparison. Equipment has changed. I wonder what Lee's stats would be with the tiny glove that Joe played with Ah, good point! Maybe the newer/better equipment of today has made the 2 hand catch obsolete. Plus scorers today are encouraged to rule plays as hits not errors for fan appeal. Hits not errors mean better fielders and hitters Exactly why I loath using errors as a comp but in this case I believe it would apply as a ball hitting an OFers glove and popping out(what a 2 hand catch would supposedly stop) would still be ruled an error even in today's laxed scoring. Maybe we have set the standards higher. Yes truely, and part of that is the very high level at which these guys field the ball now. I mean, could you really imagine Don Kessinger winning a gold glove nowadays? None of this exonerates poor fundy's but when I hear how things aren't like they were in the old days, I think "Thank God!!". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cwsox Posted June 17, 2003 Share Posted June 17, 2003 What does the 2 hand catch have to do with baseball fundamentals? Shoeless in his first 4 full seasons had error totals of 12, 16, 18, and 7 in the OF. Carlos Lee in his first 4 full seasons had error totals of 4, 3, 8, and 1 in the OF. Who had the better fundy's????????? 2 handed catch has a lot to do with sound fundamental baseball, in my old school opinion. The error totals for Shoeless Joe vs CLee were interesting! I have never thought about the difference between the scorer's game from 80 years ago versus now. I bet the standards were different - just by way of comparison, look at everything else - 1 home run in the 1919 world series - the phrase about Shoeless Jack's fielding, "that's where triples go to die" is something no one thinks of today since no one hits triples to speak of. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted June 17, 2003 Share Posted June 17, 2003 Heck a good place to start is look at what players practice before a game. It is batting practice. Who is out fielding? Most of the time it is the pitchers, coaches and batboys. The regular fielders are no where to be seen. How much time to they spend bunting? How much time do they spend on situational hitting? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1549 Posted June 17, 2003 Share Posted June 17, 2003 The image of Carlos Lee playing with one of those old gloves that looks like a big leather hand makes me laugh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted June 17, 2003 Share Posted June 17, 2003 The image of Carlos Lee playing with one of those old gloves that looks like a big leather hand makes me laugh He wouldn't make any errors with it. He would spend the whole game standing there staring at it wondering WTF is this? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JUGGERNAUT Posted June 17, 2003 Author Share Posted June 17, 2003 I'm not talking just about errors. Though the SOX collectively I think avg better than 1 error a game (That's enough right there to wear a bag over one's head). I'm talking about poor fundamentals. I've counted no less than 5 balls hit in CF betw Rowand & Rios play time where it went over there head but bounced before the warning track. THAT's A CARDINAL SIN IN THIS GAME!!! JM should have kicked dirt at them & sent them home on those days. That kind of play should not be tolerated. I've counted no less than 9 lost runs due to poor base-running. Again Rowand is involved. When you consider the close games the SOX have been in over the last 20 gms, that could have made a difference. I've counted maybe 1 decent bunt all yr long. That's down right pathetic. I've not seen either Olivo or Paul get into position to block the plate for a play at home. If it's because we don't have OFers who can get them the ball on 1 bounce, then we need new OFers. Period. As a SOX fan I've grown accustomed to the errors. I can even look past them. But piss-poor play is unacceptable. When I see that I immed turn them off. If I'm at the game, I want the whole team to give the guy his deserving lumps. I just don't understand why we have such stupid players on our team. Did KW have a hand in picking all of these guys? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texsox Posted June 17, 2003 Share Posted June 17, 2003 He wouldn't make any errors with it. He would spend the whole game standing there staring at it wondering WTF is this? lol Those gloves do look funny. I tried a 30's vintage glove on and it wasn't just the size that was weird but the padding. I couldn't imagine trying to field with one of those. It must have taken months to break one in. Thinking of Don Kessinger another factor is players are quicker than they use to be. They are getting to balls and committing errors on balls that would have gone as untouched hits. Perhaps it is the attempts that make it look like players are worse. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whitesox247 Posted June 18, 2003 Share Posted June 18, 2003 I'd have to say a huge part of the blame goes to KW. If he's the one making the moves, he's the one that's not getting us fundamentally sound players. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cwsox Posted June 18, 2003 Share Posted June 18, 2003 we just discovered at least one AL team bunts better than us... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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