Jim Thome

[Hangar18]

It would also mean a playoff spot, I noticed something today.

 

2005 = Rowand

 

2006 = Anderson

2005 = World Series

 

2006 = Disapointment

 

Coincidence? I THINK NOT! You have to remember last year's team was built solely on chemistry, the #1 producer of said chemistry??? AARON ROWAND.

 

 

I never really believed in all of that Chemistry stuff. But there has to be something to this ........

 

 

Your argument carries no weight when you fail to support it with factual information. The numbers say he's been quite good. OPS and OBP huge, BA RISP even better... what do you see in the second half that is "not right?"

 

 

 

Give me a sec, here, while I dig up Thomes 2nd half Batting Average, and his average against lefties

[NorthSideSox72]

Give me a sec, here, while I dig up Thomes 2nd half Batting Average, and his average against lefties

Show us his overall offensive numbers for the 2nd half. They will be quite good. Those same numbers with RISP will be even better.

 

His average against lefties will be lesser of course. That doesn't make him "not right". It makes him left-handed.

[santo=dorf]

Since Hangar won't do his own homework;

 

1st Half Thome:

against RHP: .322/.433/.806 1.239 OPS in 180 at-bats

against LHP: .257/.382/.394 .776 OPS in 109 at-bats

 

1st Half Thomas:

against RHP: .262/.369/.530 .899 OPS in 168 at-bats

against LHP: .152/.361/.500 .861 OPS in 46 at-bats Wow Hangar. A .152 BA. Shouldn't righties do better agianst lefties?

 

2nd Half Thome:

against RHP:.321/.486/.621 1.107 OPS in 112 at-bats

against LHP: .218/.326/.333 .679 OPS in 78 at-bats

 

2nd Half Thomas:

against RHP: .301/.371/.568 .939 OPS in 183 at-bats.

against LHP: .286/.452/.554 1.006 OPS in 56 at-bats.

 

Hangar is to Jim Thome what the Tribune is to the Sox. Make your point, and avoid all the facts that may point otherwise.

 

Hangar, are you on the SOX's side, or the Tribune's?

[Hangar18]

Since Hangar won't do his own homework;

 

1st Half Thome:

against RHP: .322/.433/.806 1.239 OPS in 180 at-bats

against LHP: .257/.382/.394 .776 OPS in 109 at-bats

 

1st Half Thomas:

against RHP: .262/.369/.530 .899 OPS in 168 at-bats

against LHP: .152/.361/.500 .861 OPS in 46 at-bats Wow Hangar. A .152 BA. Shouldn't righties do better agianst lefties?

 

2nd Half Thome:

against RHP:.321/.486/.621 1.107 OPS in 112 at-bats

against LHP: .218/.326/.333 .679 OPS in 78 at-bats

 

2nd Half Thomas:

against RHP: .301/.371/.568 .939 OPS in 183 at-bats.

against LHP: .286/.452/.554 1.006 OPS in 56 at-bats.

 

Hangar is to Jim Thome what the Tribune is to the Sox. Make your point, and avoid all the facts that may point otherwise.

 

Hangar, are you on the SOX's side, or the Tribune's?

 

Say, thanks for digging this up while I was away.

Hmmmmmmmmmmm.

Look at that. According to those gaudy numbers, Thome has pretty much been scalding the ball off of everyone. .322 first half, .321 second half? My gosh he is amazing. But lets look a bit further, in the power numbers, the ones that should be consistently HIGH, seeing that hes our/was our #3 hitter.

April 10 HR, May 10 HR's while hitting pretty "good" about .300. Well June came and he dropped badly,

hitting 5 homers, and his average at .260. Thats ok I guess for all the Thome apologists out there, but you cant have a .260 hitter in the #3 hole, while another guy is hitting .300 plus.

In July, he gets his homers up a bit to 8 HR's, and his RBI's to 17. August wasnt good at all again, he dipped to 3 homers, and only 10 RBI. Boy did we need him in August too. There are only a couple games left in the season, and Thome has 6 homers this month, and 15 RBI.

 

According to ESPN, Thome hit .298 before the break, and .279 after the break.

Before the Break, he had 30 homers and 77 rbi. For sure on MVP pace.

After the Break, he had only 12 homers and 30 rbi. Take from that what you will.

[Balta1701]

Say, thanks for digging this up while I was away.

Hmmmmmmmmmmm.

Look at that. According to those gaudy numbers, Thome has pretty much been scalding the ball off of everyone. .322 first half, .321 second half? My gosh he is amazing. But lets look a bit further, in the power numbers, the ones that should be consistently HIGH, seeing that hes our/was our #3 hitter.

April 10 HR, May 10 HR's while hitting pretty "good" about .300. Well June came and he dropped badly,

hitting 5 homers, and his average at .260. Thats ok I guess for all the Thome apologists out there, but you cant have a .260 hitter in the #3 hole, while another guy is hitting .300 plus.

In July, he gets his homers up a bit to 8 HR's, and his RBI's to 17. August wasnt good at all again, he dipped to 3 homers, and only 10 RBI. Boy did we need him in August too. There are only a couple games left in the season, and Thome has 6 homers this month, and 15 RBI.

 

According to ESPN, Thome hit .298 before the break, and .279 after the break.

Before the Break, he had 30 homers and 77 rbi. For sure on MVP pace.

After the Break, he had only 12 homers and 30 rbi. Take from that what you will.

Man, those are some prime examples of cherry picking data and taking way too small of sample sizes with no context.

 

Yes, Jim's RBI are down in the 2nd half, and especially in August. Know why? Because Scott Podsednik put up a .284 OBP in August, so Jim almost never had RBI chances. Yes, his HR were down that month, but he also hit 9 doubles, and hit .329.

 

Yes, Jim's home runs are down in the 2nd half. But he also has more doubles in the 2nd half than in the first half in 100 fewer at bats. Yes his RBI are down, but how much of that is Scott Podsednik's terrible 2nd half? His OBP is higher in the 2nd half than in the first, so he's walking more and striking out less.

 

If you want to cherry pick data...Jermaine Dye only hit .265 in May, and only had 16 RBI that month. Man, he must have been hurting us badly then right? Of course, I neglected to mention the 8 home runs or the 1.035 OPS there. Or the .250 Average and 12 RBI for JD in September?

 

When you take a full sample set, like a player's career, and start breaking it down by seasons, you'll find some that are good and some that are bad compared to the player's average. When you break it down even more, into months and weeks, you get into sample sizes that are barely statistically significant. You're going to find months when Jim hits less home runs because a few more bounced off the wall and wound up as doubles. Or because fewer people pitched to him. Just as you will with every hitter.

[chisoxt]

When you take a full sample set, like a player's career, and start breaking it down by seasons, you'll find some that are good and some that are bad compared to the player's average. When you break it down even more, into months and weeks, you get into sample sizes that are barely statistically significant. You're going to find months when Jim hits less home runs because a few more bounced off the wall and wound up as doubles. Or because fewer people pitched to him. Just as you will with every hitter.

 

Reagardless of his batting average, the important statistics, HR and RBI clearly indicate that Thome was not very good in the second half. I am not sure how much the Sox are on the hook for Thome's remaing three year deal at about $13.5 million per., but I would implore Kenny to seek a deal for this guy before becomes a huge liability down the road. Trade him while he still has value.

[DBAHO]

Can I just ask if you trade Thome, who do you trade him for, and how are you going to replace his power output in the lineup (and please don't say Ross Gload).

[Balta1701]

Can I just ask if you trade Thome, who do you trade him for, and how are you going to replace his power output in the lineup (and please don't say Ross Gload).

Just as with almost everyone else in our lineup...Thome is only tradeable for the right price. The right price is significantly more than we got for him now that he's proven he's not finished.

 

You want to trade Thome, you better get a real real freaking stud back right now.

 

Reagardless of his batting average, the important statistics, HR and RBI clearly indicate that Thome was not very good in the second half. I am not sure how much the Sox are on the hook for Thome's remaing three year deal at about $13.5 million per., but I would implore Kenny to seek a deal for this guy before becomes a huge liability down the road. Trade him while he still has value.

First of all, and this I'm sure of...Thome only has 2 years left on his deal. His 3rd year is an option year. And the Sox are paid roughly 1/2 of those last 2 years.

 

Secondly...Thome had 67 At bats with RISP in the first half. 44 of those with a runner on 3rd. He only had 46 with RISP in the 2nd half...32 with a runner on 3rd.

 

Thome's numbers are slightly down in the 2nd half. But you simply can not say he was "not very good". He was very good, just not great.

[santo=dorf]

QUOTE(chisoxt @ Sep 25, 2006 -> 09:24 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Reagardless of his batting average, the important statistics, HR and RBI clearly indicate that Thome was not very good in the second half. I am not sure how much the Sox are on the hook for Thome's remaing three year deal at about $13.5 million per., but I would implore Kenny to seek a deal for this guy before becomes a huge liability down the road. Trade him while he still has value.

LMAO at HR and Rbi's being the only "important" stats for a player, and that wasn't even the stupidest part of the post.

 

A player can have a decent amount of HR and RBI's, but not be that good (Tony Batista a few years ago.)

A player can be very productive without hitting home runs or driving in runs as well.

 

 

Hangar, I didn't cherry pick s***. I posted the half numbers against LHP and RHP for both Thomas and Thome. YOU were the one looking for Frank's second half, against LHP, Batting average. That's cherry picking.

 

Care to explain the .152 batting average?

 

Are you on the Sox's side, or the Tribune's? (ie, supporting propoganda)

Edited September 26, 2006 by santo=dorf

[Hangar18]

LMAO at HR and Rbi's being the only "important" stats for a player, and that wasn't even the stupidest part of the post.

 

A player can have a decent amount of HR and RBI's, but not be that good (Tony Batista a few years ago.)

A player can be very productive without hitting home runs or driving in runs as well.

Hangar, I didn't cherry pick s***. I posted the half numbers against LHP and RHP for both Thomas and Thome. YOU were the one looking for Frank's second half, against LHP, Batting average. That's cherry picking.

 

Care to explain the .152 batting average?

 

Are you on the Sox's side, or the Tribune's? (ie, supporting propoganda)

 

 

Why is Frank Thomas in this conversation? Balta brings up a good point, how much have Thomes alarmingly low HR & RBI numbers because of Scott Podsednik? Im sure it doesnt help Thome, but Thome has batted with men on the second half, and ive seen plenty of popups, strikeouts from him. I trust Jermaine Dye with men on more.

[Balta1701]

Why is Frank Thomas in this conversation? Balta brings up a good point, how much have Thomes alarmingly low HR & RBI numbers because of Scott Podsednik? Im sure it doesnt help Thome, but Thome has batted with men on the second half, and ive seen plenty of popups, strikeouts from him. I trust Jermaine Dye with men on more.

Now this is a different story from the one we've been talking about. Was Jim Thome "not very good" in the 2nd half, or was Jermaine Dye simply better? I think the answer is the 2nd one of those...the reason almost all of us would have wanted JD up instead of Thome in the 2nd half was that JD was simply better in the 2nd half. With RISP in the 2nd half, JD hit .342 wiht a 1.053 OPS (and a whopping 1.240 OPS in the first half).

 

Thome also has one thing unique from JD in his career though...Thome has a significantly higher BABIP, despite the fact that they have similar career batting averages. This is due to the way Thome swings...he swings hard at everything in case he hits it. This helps him get all that power (when he hits the ball, he hits it darn hard), but it also leads to a lot of strikeouts...which is one reason why it's nice to sandwich him between guys like JD, Crede, Konerko...because if you get a guy on 3rd, Thome's less likely to get him home with a fly ball or ground ball to the right side. So it makes statistical sense to trust JD more with men on, especially last year which was the best of his career, but again...none of that means Thome was bad, terrible, bad in the 2nd half, or to blame for this team losing.

[santo=dorf]

At-bats/strikeout:

1st half: 3.25

2nd half: 3.75

 

THOME IS STRIKING OUT AT A LESSER RATE IN THE SECOND HALF

 

GO/AO

1st Half: 0.74

2nd half: 1.20

 

THOME IS HITTING MORE GROUNDBALLS THAN POPOUTS IN THE SECOND HALF

RISP GO/AO:

April: 1/2

May: 2/6

June: 2/6

July: 6/6

August: 5/2

September: 5/7

 

You see that? He's hitting ground balls at a higher rate with RISP IN THE SECOND HALF

 

With RISP at bats/strikeouts:

April: 13/3 4.333

May: 26/9 2.889

June: 23/8 2.875

July: 15/5 3.000

August: 15/2 7.500

September: 21/4 5.25

 

You see that? He's getting FEWER at-bats with RISP and his Stirkeout rate is WAY, WAY down.

 

You have been seriously owned in this conversation.

 

I'm going to ask one more time; whose side are you on? The Sox's, or the Tribune's? (ie, supporting propoganda)

[cgaudin]

His numbers have been proving that for awhile now. He should have hit much better than he is since then.

Why would you trade 290 40 100 for bullpen arms?

 

Because the Sox have NO bullpen, smart guy. Thome will be the ball 'n chain of this baseball team if he remains here. Get rid of him, now. We need to design our baseball team to compete against Minnesota, Cleveland, and Detroit. Thome is an automatic out batting against lefties.

[ZoomSlowik]

Because the Sox have NO bullpen, smart guy. Thome will be the ball 'n chain of this baseball team if he remains here. Get rid of him, now. We need to design our baseball team to compete against Minnesota, Cleveland, and Detroit. Thome is an automatic out batting against lefties.

 

Yeah, because one or two middle relievers are worth so much more than a dominant hitter. Why would anyone want a guy that hit 40 homers and drove in and scored 108 runs.

 

Please. Trading Thome makes this offense an awful lot weaker. You simply aren't going to be able to compensate for that unless our pitching gets SIGNIFICANTLY better, which it probably won't unless our guys return to their pre-2006 form. You better get an awful lot more than a middle reliever or two for Thome IF you are going to trade him. Our bullpen isn't even our biggest issue, not with Jenks, MacDougal, and Thornton at the back end. Yeah, another dependable arm or two would help, but you don't need to trade one of our best hitters to get them.

 

Last time I checked, most of the pitchers in the league are still right-handed, and we play a lot more than 3 teams. Besides, his OBP against lefties was still higher than every hitter on the team except Paulie, Dye and Ozuna. Just because he doesn't get as many hits doesn't mean he's an automatic out.

 

It's simple: Jim Thome is not the problem. Our starting pitching is.

Edited September 26, 2006 by ZoomSlowik

[NorthSideSox72]

Because the Sox have NO bullpen, smart guy. Thome will be the ball 'n chain of this baseball team if he remains here. Get rid of him, now. We need to design our baseball team to compete against Minnesota, Cleveland, and Detroit. Thome is an automatic out batting against lefties.

Where do you people keep getting the idea that the 2nd best hitter on the team is the problem?! Ball and chain? Automatic out?

[witesoxfan]

Because the Sox have NO bullpen, smart guy. Thome will be the ball 'n chain of this baseball team if he remains here. Get rid of him, now. We need to design our baseball team to compete against Minnesota, Cleveland, and Detroit. Thome is an automatic out batting against lefties.

 

Jenks, Thornton, and MacDougal all suck complete ballsack.

 

Get real. The Sox aren't trading a guy that puts up .290 40 100 .400/.600/1.000 for 2 pitchers that bring no guarantee at all. If this year taught us, as a fan base, anything, it should be that bullpen arms cannot be guaranteed for anything from year to year.

[Wanne]

The only plan I'd have for Thome for '07 is physical therapy in the off-season and try to keep him healthy. He's not going anywhere. And honestly...for those that say trade him....to who and for who? Plus...doesn't he have to ok any trades?

[RockRaines]

Thome's production fell off a bit after his injuries, of course they did. But he was still one of the best hitters on the team during that period. The only real criticism you can have about thome is that his situational hitting was pretty subpar this year.

 

Bases loaded .143 .250

Second and third .000 .444

Close and late .190 .414

 

they are VERY small sample sizes, but it seemed that when we needed him most to me, that he wasnt a huge factor. That and with a 3-2 count he almsot always watched the pitch.

[santo=dorf]

QUOTE(RockRaines @ Sep 27, 2006 -> 01:30 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Thome's production fell off a bit after his injuries, of course they did. But he was still one of the best hitters on the team during that period. The only real criticism you can have about thome is that his situational hitting was pretty subpar this year.

 

Bases loaded .143 .250

Second and third .000 .444

Close and late .190 .414

 

they are VERY small sample sizes, but it seemed that when we needed him most to me, that he wasnt a huge factor. That and with a 3-2 count he almsot always watched the pitch.

Those sample sizes are so small they aren't even worth discussion

Runners on second and third: He's had 3 at-bats

Bases loaded: 7 at-bats His one hit was a grand slam and he had a bases load walk

 

Seriously. THREE AT-BATS????

 

Let's look at a much larger sample size:

Men on, 2 outs: 88 at-bats .307/.430/.636

Man on 3rd less than 2 outs: 23 at-bats .391/.447/.957

 

 

Subpar my ass.

[RockRaines]

Those sample sizes are so small they aren't even worth discussion

Runners on second and third: He's had 3 at-bats

Bases loaded: 7 at-bats His one hit was a grand slam and he had a bases load walk

 

Seriously. THREE AT-BATS????

 

Let's look at a much larger sample size:

Men on, 2 outs: 88 at-bats .307/.430/.636

Man on 3rd less than 2 outs: 23 at-bats .391/.447/.957

Subpar my ass.

Exactly why I said they are VERY small sample sizes. Read next time.

[santo=dorf]

QUOTE(RockRaines @ Sep 27, 2006 -> 02:09 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Exactly why I said they are VERY small sample sizes. Read next time.

I did, which is why I brought up HOW small they were noting they weren't even discussion. :rolly

 

If you no they are not worth anything, why did you bother claiming Thome was "subpar" in situational hitting?

 

My cat's breath smells like cat food, but like the sample sizes you used, it's not worth mentioning.

[RockRaines]

I did, which is why I brought up HOW small they were noting they weren't even discussion. :rolly

 

If you no they are not worth anything, why did you bother claiming Thome was "subpar" in situational hitting?

 

My cat's breath smells like cat food, but like the sample sizes you used, it's not worth mentioning.

Wow, who would have thought that you would want to fight with someone who is a Thome supporter?

[Hangar18]

Thome's production fell off a bit after his injuries, of course they did. But he was still one of the best hitters on the team during that period. The only real criticism you can have about thome is that his situational hitting was pretty subpar this year.

 

Bases loaded .143 .250

Second and third .000 .444

Close and late .190 .414

 

they are VERY small sample sizes, but it seemed that when we needed him most to me, that he wasnt a huge factor. That and with a 3-2 count he almsot always watched the pitch.

 

I think I watched everyone of those at-bats too .............

 

I did, which is why I brought up HOW small they were noting they weren't even discussion. :rolly

 

why did you bother claiming Thome was "subpar" in situational hitting?

 

Those were still at-bats? Those situations were all huge I'm sure, where a hit here or sacfly there might have won us the game. Id love to know exactly which games those were ......hitting 2 run homers, and launching solo blasts are great when were winning 12-0, but give me the clutch homeruns, i'll take them

[joeynach]

If Kenny has Thome back next season. Has has got to find a right handed compliment to platoon against left handed pitching and spell for Jim every now and then. Thome has been absolutely pathetic in the second half with...count them...20 RBIs. The guy looks gassed and as I understand is playing hurt. Right now he is not help the club one bit, plus he is a strikeout machine.

 

He had a great first half but a not so hot second half. Come to think of it, the old adage, better to trade someone a year early than a year late, may apply to Jim this coming off-season.

 

I agree I think his performaces against lefties has been dismal and downright unacceptable. He is night and day and hurts our lineup being a cleanup hitter against lefties. I dont know if he is hurt or just no longer has it in him to hit tough lefties but something has to be done. I wouldn't minde seeing a platoon for a good righty when we face the plethora of tough lefties, especially in our division. I was dissapointed to see ozzie so stubborn that he would constantly leave him in the 4 spot despite dismal numbers against lefties. I dont know if I wanted him traded but we need at least insurance for his health and .220 avg against lefties.