Would you trade BMac for Carl Crawford?

[Gene Honda Civic]

The sox could go for a strictly defensive SS, someone who could make better contact and be more consistent at the plate than Juan, though-an 8, 9 hitter with some speed.

You mean like Alex Gonzalez? Maybe Royce Clayton.

 

Look, a .250 OBP is unacceptable. There's no arguing that... but our best chance at having an upgrade, both offensively and defensively, over '06 Uribe, is probably by understanding that Uribe can't possibly be as bad next season...

 

and hiring Walt Hriniak as a consultant.

[Balta1701]

You mean like Alex Gonzalez? Maybe Royce Clayton.

 

Look, a .250 OBP is unacceptable. There's no arguing that... but our best chance at having an upgrade, both offensively and defensively, over '06 Uribe, is probably by understanding that Uribe can't possibly be as bad next season...

 

and hiring Walt Hriniak as a consultant.

The problem of course is that Uribe actually can be this bad next season...because aside from 1 year in his career, this year is pretty close to his average numbers

 

2002 .240 .286 .341 .627

2003 .253 .297 .427 .724

2004 .283 .327 .506 .833

2005 .252 .301 .412 .713

2006 .235 .257 .441 .698

Career .258 .297 .433 .730

 

Uribe this season is only 32 points below his career OPS. His OBP is a disaster, but his slugging is higher.

 

Yes, we all know there's the potential inside that skull to put up 2004 numbers, or better, if he ever gets his act together. But he's shown very few signs of actualy doing that over the last 2.5 seasons. And we're still not totally certain about his defense...if he keeps carrying his struggles with the bat into the field, there's no reason to expect that he'll go back to his late 2005 form.

 

The other part of that issue is that Uribe's cost also goes up by $1 m a year each of the next 2 years, to the point that he costs over $5 million in 2008.

 

Honestly, I can't totally object to keeping him, because he does have the potential to do some really great things with the bat and on defense. If we plug the hole in LF and Anderson continues to improve and Rob Mackowiak is traded, Uribe is not the worst option in the world at that spot. But he's not the best, and he's not guaranteed to improve either.

[beck72]

This Anderson persecution from certain media members sure seems like the crap Garland got for not being more "emotional" during his pre-2005 years. Did Anderson not punch enough lockers and throw enough stools when he was slumping to be considered 'competitive' and 'gritty'? What's the story here?

 

Because every time I've heard Anderson talk, or seen someone that I actually respect talk about Anderson, I've never gotten a bad impression from him. Sure, hitting .230 didn't do a whole lot to help his cause, but why does it seem like Anderson is now being labeled as a guy with attitude problems?

Why not?

 

The anderson persecution is from Ozzie. He's the one who has said BA needs to play winter ball, improve his game, etc. Most everyone else believes BA has done a nice job the 2nd half. Personally, I'm happy with his d and expect him to hit over .260 in 2007

 

Uribe's inconsistent offense needs to be addressed--either by him putting more work in or by replacing him

[Balta1701]

The anderson persecution is from Ozzie. He's the one who has said BA needs to play winter ball, improve his game, etc. Most everyone else believes BA has done a nice job the 2nd half. Personally, I'm happy with his d and expect him to hit over .260 in 2007

 

Uribe's inconsistent offense needs to be addressed--either by him putting more work in or by replacing him

Well, BA does need to play winterball. That's actually the right idea. But the couple of additional statements that Anderson is not doing what he needs to do which is either throwing him under the bus or nearly so, combined with the fact that Ozzie constantly cost us games, and IMO at least the Wild Card by putting Mackowiak in CF, is where the real persecution was.

[beck72]

Honestly, I can't totally object to keeping him, because he does have the potential to do some really great things with the bat and on defense. If we plug the hole in LF and Anderson continues to improve and Rob Mackowiak is traded, Uribe is not the worst option in the world at that spot. But he's not the best, and he's not guaranteed to improve either.

 

Well put. If the sox have a Crawford type upgrade in LF, Uribe and his d would be OK. But to expect him to produce like 2004 is a false hope. Some type of lesser d, better offense could be out there

[TaylorStSox]

Of course I'd do it. I don't think the DRays are that stupid though. Some of the prospect obsessed posters really overvalue BMac.

[JenksForPrez45]

Well first of all, I thought very highly of B-Mac before this year and going into this season but the way Ozzie has handled him this year I think ruined him. I think he could be good in a few years maybe even sooner but I think Crawford would be a great player with this team. He would be an all-star every year IN MY OPINION if he was on a better team than the d-rays. He would be great for the sox he would get into scoring position for our guys to drive him in and he is a good hitter where he can drive in a lot of runs as well. I think we would be stupid to not take that type of deal. Also, theres potential pitchers floating around every year with hype and coming into the league im pretty sure if we got rid of McCarthy we could easily just get another one somewhere else or draft another one. Potential pitching studs I hear about all the time, most of them never ammount to much and Crawford has already proven to be a good everyday MLB player.

 

Thats my take, rip me apart if you wish.

[beck72]

You mean like Alex Gonzalez? Maybe Royce Clayton.

 

Look, a .250 OBP is unacceptable. There's no arguing that... but our best chance at having an upgrade, both offensively and defensively, over '06 Uribe, is probably by understanding that Uribe can't possibly be as bad next season...

 

and hiring Walt Hriniak as a consultant.

If the sox found a way to keep Uribe and his sub .300 OBP, fine. Crawford's addition could help the sox score more runs while keeping Juan in the 9 hole. But we fans and the sox shouldn't count or expect Uribe to find religion in Hriniak or come near his 2004 yr.

[Gene Honda Civic]

And we're still not totally certain about his defense...if he keeps carrying his struggles with the bat into the field, there's no reason to expect that he'll go back to his late 2005 form.

 

The other part of that issue is that Uribe's cost also goes up by $1 m a year each of the next 2 years, to the point that he costs over $5 million in 2008.

 

Honestly, I can't totally object to keeping him, because he does have the potential to do some really great things with the bat and on defense. If we plug the hole in LF and Anderson continues to improve and Rob Mackowiak is traded, Uribe is not the worst option in the world at that spot. But he's not the best, and he's not guaranteed to improve either.

How are we unsure about his defense? He can sleepwalk his way to better defense than half the SS in the league.

 

Why are we worried about his contract? This team will have a $100M payroll next year. We don't really have much need to shed players who are still productive (yes Uribe is productive) and relatively cheap.

 

Uribe has walked 13 times this season, one was intentional. He's been brutal, and hasn't responded to coaching. BUT...Uribe walked 15 times in September and October last year, which just happened to correspond to the addition of a leg kick at the prompting of Frank Thomas and Walt Hriniak. I think the Sox bear some responsibility for not attempting to get Uribe the coaching that he apparently responds to.

 

Whatever salary, or pride that has to be swallowed, to hire on Mr. Hriniak will end up being less of a cost than finding a replacement for Uribe, and trading him when his value is at it's lowest.

[CySox]

Depending on who else might be involved, most likely... hell yes!!!

[RockRaines]

I didn't know Dusty Baker was a Soxtalk contributer...

What matters more in a game. Runs or runners on base? Check out what side of the argument you are defending and get back to me.

[Balta1701]

So BMac tonight...8 k's in 5 IP, 1 hit, faced 1 over the minimum. Changeup was back. 2 seamer was working.

 

Yeah...don't you dare trade this kid. I'm satisified...I just wanted to know that they hadn't permanently screwed him up.

[RockRaines]

So BMac tonight...8 k's in 5 IP, 1 hit, faced 1 over the minimum. Changeup was back. 2 seamer was working.

 

Yeah...don't you dare trade this kid. I'm satisified...I just wanted to know that they hadn't permanently screwed him up.

They didnt, and when he got tired, he looked like he did in relief.

[Balta1701]

They didnt, and when he got tired, he looked like he did in relief.

He was supposed to be on a pitch count, and he was at about 80 pitches when he started to get shaky. In other words, yeah, he wasn't stretched out, and he gave up a home run and a walk because Ozzie left him in too long. Haegar should have started the 6th, but anyway...very nice to see that the real BMac still is alive in there.

[RockRaines]

He was supposed to be on a pitch count, and he was at about 80 pitches when he started to get shaky. In other words, yeah, he wasn't stretched out, and he gave up a home run and a walk because Ozzie left him in too long. Haegar should have started the 6th, but anyway...very nice to see that the real BMac still is alive in there.

Yup, that was my point, as soon as he got to his limit, he looked just like he did all season. When starting BMAC is a totally different pitcher.

[VAfan]

With much better lead off hitters available as free agents, I wouldn't trade ANY talent to solve the lead-off-left-field hole we have.

 

As I write on a separate thread, Alfonso Soriano and Gary Matthews Jr. are both much better choices. Both are just better hitters than Crawford, with better OBPs and more power. Plus both hit lefties much better than Crawford. After watching lefties KILL us this year, we can ill afford not to try to address that problem at the same time.

 

Crawford's splits.

vs. Left 162 24 46 6 3 4 26 10 3 31 11 1 .284 .337 .432 .769

vs. Right 426 62 132 14 12 14 50 26 1 52 45 8 .310 .349 .498 .847

 

The only benefit to Crawford is that he is younger and will be cheaper than Soriano or Matthews. But this trade off isn't worth making since we would have to surrender an equal talent that is also younger and cheaper to get him.

[beck72]

With much better lead off hitters available as free agents, I wouldn't trade ANY talent to solve the lead-off-left-field hole we have.

 

As I write on a separate thread, Alfonso Soriano and Gary Matthews Jr. are both much better choices. Both are just better hitters than Crawford, with better OBPs and more power. Plus both hit lefties much better than Crawford. After watching lefties KILL us this year, we can ill afford not to try to address that problem at the same time.

 

Crawford's splits.

vs. Left 162 24 46 6 3 4 26 10 3 31 11 1 .284 .337 .432 .769

vs. Right 426 62 132 14 12 14 50 26 1 52 45 8 .310 .349 .498 .847

 

The only benefit to Crawford is that he is younger and will be cheaper than Soriano or Matthews. But this trade off isn't worth making since we would have to surrender an equal talent that is also younger and cheaper to get him.

Juan Pierre would be better options than those two. And more likely with Ozzie knowing what to expect from Pierre.

[fathom]

Juan Pierre would be better options than those two. And more likely with Ozzie knowing what to expect from Pierre.

 

Pierre is a more realistic option. On no planet is he a better option than Soriano.

[beck72]

Pierre is a more realistic option. On no planet is he a better option than Soriano.

 

Better after taking contract, cost, salary, etc into consideration. I know Soriano is more talented.

[Kalapse]

Better after taking contract, cost, salary, etc into consideration. I know Soriano is more talented.

You do realize Juan Pierre is going to get $9M+ per this offseason right? Soriano will likely make around $15M a year and considering how much better Soriano is than Pierre I'd say Soriano is worth the extra $4M-$6M per year. Juan Pierre is going to make a lot more money than some people think he's going to get.

[Balta1701]

You do realize Juan Pierre is going to get $9M+ per this offseason right? Soriano will likely make around $15M a year and considering how much better Soriano is than Pierre I'd say Soriano is worth the extra $4M-$6M per year. Juan Pierre is going to make a lot more money than some people think he's going to get.

With the Yankees already having Damon, who in the Hell is going to give Pierre $9 million a year?

[GreatScott82]

BMac for one of the best leadoff hitters in the game... Crawford is what this team needs badly!! I can go one more year with the 5 starters we have. The rotation is getting older, the time is now to go after that World Series again. If KW can some how bring Crawford over for BMac, this team will do it again. I know one thing for certain, 1 of our 6 starters will be dealt. Either for a guy like Rollins, Tejada, Crawford, a major bullpen upgrade..etc... Its up to Kenny to decide what this team's biggest weakness is and how to determine what arm this team can afford to let go to improve the team. But my #1 would be Bmac for Crawford.

I can see it now...

Crawford LF

Gooch 2B

Dye RF

Pauly 1B

Thome DH

Crede 3B

Pierzynski C

Anderson CF

Uribe SS

 

I highly doubt KW lets go of his pride and joy Anderson. I can possibly see him trading Uribe though.. So many decisous he must make

[greg775]

But I am very concerned that the way Ozzie has used him this year will wind up having set him back several years in his career, or maybe even robbed him of the chance to be the dominant pitcher we saw at the end of 2005 when he was destroying whoever he pitched against and dueled Santana to a draw.

 

Oh my God.

I hope you read Flash Tizzle's response to this. Balta, you are blaming Ozzie for perhaps "robbing him of

the chance to be the dominant pitcher we saw at the end of 2005?"

 

If BMac is that sensitive, my gawd, he is nothing to begin with.

We had 5 starters this year. The Organization as Tizzle said, wanted BMac to fill the middle relief role.

We had five starters. How did Ozzie rob him of anything; it gave McCarthy a chance to stay in the big

leagues. Nobody in the world was going to start BMac over any of our five starters once we got Vas.

It's KW's fault for acquiring Vas if anything.

[Flash Tizzle]

BMac for one of the best leadoff hitters in the game... Crawford is what this team needs badly!! I can go one more year with the 5 starters we have. The rotation is getting older, the time is now to go after that World Series again. If KW can some how bring Crawford over for BMac, this team will do it again. I know one thing for certain, 1 of our 6 starters will be dealt. Either for a guy like Rollins, Tejada, Crawford, a major bullpen upgrade..etc... Its up to Kenny to decide what this team's biggest weakness is and how to determine what arm this team can afford to let go to improve the team. But my #1 would be Bmac for Crawford.

Unless Wiliams is a moron, he'd immediately realize our pitching (both starters and bullpen) remains the teams most glaring weakness.

 

To this team 2007 and beyond, McCarthy is more valuable than Crawford.

 

What I don't understand is if the current five starters didn't win anything this year, why exactly would you believe they'd magically turn it around?

 

I rather aire on the side of caution and accept their 2006 stats over 2005, with the exclusion of Vazquez; whom performed fairly close to 2005 levels. You may reply, "but this years stats were off from career normals," and to that I'd reply, "so." American League Central is steadily rising towards respectability. No longer are Garland or Buehlre feasting on the lower teams and padding their win totals.

 

Leaving the rotation as is and merely HOPING every starter improves is something that Quasimodo looking goof on the Northside Jim Hendry would do. Don't think like Jim Hendry.

[TheBlackSox8]

Oh my God.

I hope you read Flash Tizzle's response to this. Balta, you are blaming Ozzie for perhaps "robbing him of

the chance to be the dominant pitcher we saw at the end of 2005?"

 

If BMac is that sensitive, my gawd, he is nothing to begin with.

We had 5 starters this year. The Organization as Tizzle said, wanted BMac to fill the middle relief role.

We had five starters. How did Ozzie rob him of anything; it gave McCarthy a chance to stay in the big

leagues. Nobody in the world was going to start BMac over any of our five starters once we got Vas.

It's KW's fault for acquiring Vas if anything.

i think at the beginning of the season everybody thought that...but as it progessed and the inconsistant starts showed...more and more people wanted Mac to bring some consistancy to the underperformers. I agree with Balta. When the pitching struggled was when McCarthy should have been used as a starter, and have the two(at the time Garcia and Vazquez) work their mechanics out in the pen. Ozzie didn't do that