southsider2k5 Posted June 18, 2003 Share Posted June 18, 2003 Illegally download copyright music from the Internet once, or even twice, and you get a warning. Do it a third time, and your computer gets destroyed. That's the suggestion made by the chairman of the Senate Judiciary Committee (news - web sites) at a Tuesday hearing on copyright abuse, reflecting a growing frustration in Congress over failure of the technology and entertainment industries to protect copyrights in a digital age. The surprise statement by Sen. Orrin Hatch, R-Utah, that he favors developing technology to remotely destroy computers used for illegal downloads represents a dramatic escalation in the increasingly contentious rhetoric over pirated music. During a discussion of methods to frustrate computer users who illegally exchange music and movie files over the Internet, Hatch asked technology executives about ways to damage computers involved in such file trading. Legal experts have said any such attack would violate federal anti-hacking laws. "No one is interested in destroying anyone's computer," replied Randy Saaf of MediaDefender Inc., a secretive Los Angeles company that builds technology to deliberately download pirated material very slowly so other users can't. "I'm interested," Hatch interrupted. He said damaging someone's computer "may be the only way you can teach somebody about copyrights." The senator, a composer who earned $18,000 last year in song-writing royalties, acknowledged Congress would have to enact an exemption for copyright owners from liability for damaging computers. He endorsed technology that would twice warn a computer user about illegal online behavior, "then destroy their computer." "If we can find some way to do this without destroying their machines, we'd be interested in hearing about that," Hatch said. "If that's the only way, then I'm all for destroying their machines. If you have a few hundred thousand of those, I think people would realize" the seriousness of their actions. "There's no excuse for anyone violating copyright laws," Hatch said. Some legal experts suggested Hatch's provocative remarks were more likely intended to compel technology and music executives to work faster toward ways to protect copyrights online than to signal forthcoming legislation. "It's just the frustration of those who are looking at enforcing laws that are proving very hard to enforce," said Orin Kerr, a George Washington University law professor and former Justice Department (news - web sites) cybercrimes prosecutor. Sen. Patrick Leahy of Vermont, the committee's senior Democrat, later said the problem is serious but called Hatch's suggestion too drastic. "The rights of copyright holders need to be protected, but some Draconian remedies that have been suggested would create more problems than they would solve," Leahy said in a statement. "We need to work together to find the right answers, and this is not one of them." Rep. Rick Boucher, D-Va., urged Hatch to reconsider. Because Hatch is Judiciary chairman, "we all take those views very seriously," he said. But Kerr said Congress was unlikely to approve any bill to enable such remote computer destruction by copyright owners "because innocent users might be wrongly targeted." A spokesman for the Recording Industry Association of America (news - web sites), Jonathan Lamy, said Hatch was "apparently making a metaphorical point that if peer-to-peer networks don't take reasonable steps to prevent massive copyright infringement on the systems they create, Congress may be forced to consider stronger measures." The RIAA represents the major music labels. The entertainment industry has gradually escalated its fight against Internet file-traders, targeting the most egregious pirates with civil lawsuits. The RIAA recently won a federal court decision making it significantly easier to identify and track consumers — even those hiding behind aliases — using popular Internet file-sharing software. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sox4lifeinPA Posted June 18, 2003 Share Posted June 18, 2003 holy f***...that's the stupidest thing in the world. "Hatch went on to say, "I hate illegal downloads on the internet...but I sure like my 15 wives..." The government "accidentally" will destroy a whole lot of computers then...f***ing fascists...seriously, what a dickwad. how about we do things the old fashioned way and use sting ops, instead of destroying my PC, because some beurocrat feels like it. did I call him a dickwad yet? I thought republicans were against things that infringed on personal rights? where's espnjohn when I need him? my songs can be downloaded for free anytime you want at www.billythepoet.com what a f***nut. dammit I hate politicians. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cwsox Posted June 18, 2003 Share Posted June 18, 2003 did I call him a dickwad yet? I thought republicans were against things that infringed on personal that is an amazingly common misperception - these are the same people who gave you the Patroit Act and believe in every type of law to legislate what you do in private in your bedroom and what medical procedures you can have and what the limits are you can be paid when your doctor commits malpractice Not surprizing the repubican chair of the Senate judicary committee would propose this Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted June 18, 2003 Author Share Posted June 18, 2003 did I call him a dickwad yet? I thought republicans were against things that infringed on personal that is an amazingly common misperception - these are the same people who gave you the Patroit Act and believe in every type of law to legislate what you do in private in your bedroom and what medical procedures you can have and what the limits are you can be paid when your doctor commits malpractice Not surprizing the repubican chair of the Senate judicary committee would propose this It is a very common misconception. They want business to be completely separate from government, but they want to tell individuals what to do. It is hypocracy to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cwsox Posted June 18, 2003 Share Posted June 18, 2003 did I call him a dickwad yet? I thought republicans were against things that infringed on personal that is an amazingly common misperception - these are the same people who gave you the Patroit Act and believe in every type of law to legislate what you do in private in your bedroom and what medical procedures you can have and what the limits are you can be paid when your doctor commits malpractice Not surprizing the repubican chair of the Senate judicary committee would propose this It is a very common misconception. They want business to be completely separate from government, but they want to tell individuals what to do. It is hypocracy to me. I just wrote you into my will. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted June 18, 2003 Author Share Posted June 18, 2003 did I call him a dickwad yet? I thought republicans were against things that infringed on personal that is an amazingly common misperception - these are the same people who gave you the Patroit Act and believe in every type of law to legislate what you do in private in your bedroom and what medical procedures you can have and what the limits are you can be paid when your doctor commits malpractice Not surprizing the repubican chair of the Senate judicary committee would propose this It is a very common misconception. They want business to be completely separate from government, but they want to tell individuals what to do. It is hypocracy to me. I just wrote you into my will. I am a very big believer in the Jeffersonian Utopian Farmer government ideals. Government was never meant to be the determining factor in our lives. I don't care who it is, both side of the aisle do it, then accuse the other of being hypocrates. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LowerCaseRepublican Posted June 18, 2003 Share Posted June 18, 2003 I've said it before and I'll say it again....I HATE REPUBLICANS! Corporate music/TV/movies was #4 in donations to Hatch at over $175,000 in the last election cycle. He was also in the top 20 recipients in the 2000 election, coming in at #12 with over $133,000. Look for yourself at www.opensecrets.org Looks like Orrin has some friends to repay. He's such a whore. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LowerCaseRepublican Posted June 18, 2003 Share Posted June 18, 2003 Let the record also show that I HATE DEMOCRATS They are censorship assclowns [Gore, Lieberman, the guy from Florida who blames GTA: Vice City for crime, etc.] But at least they don't want to blow up computers. The RIAA got nailed for price fixing CDs and keeping an inflated high price. Then they get angry at the people who don't want to pay it. That's bulls***. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SI1020 Posted June 18, 2003 Share Posted June 18, 2003 did I call him a dickwad yet? I thought republicans were against things that infringed on personal that is an amazingly common misperception - these are the same people who gave you the Patroit Act and believe in every type of law to legislate what you do in private in your bedroom and what medical procedures you can have and what the limits are you can be paid when your doctor commits malpractice Not surprizing the repubican chair of the Senate judicary committee would propose this That's why the traditional "crossfire" arguments on message boards frustrate the s*** out of me. Terms like "liberal" and "conservative" are often useless. Patrick Leahy is one of my most unfavorite senators. Guess what? On this issue he makes much more sense than Hatch. The problem is that the technology has badly overtaken the laws ability to enforce copyrights. Hatch has copyrights and obviously is mad. Remember on another thread I said everyone wants the government to be their hammer. This is a perfect example. As far as labeling people goes I think current events have made the labels obselete. I'm not a liberal, but a century or two ago I might qualify as a "classical liberal". I think on economic issues you can put people on the left or the right. On many other issues, people are either authoritarian or they're not. On this issue Hatch is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LowerCaseRepublican Posted June 18, 2003 Share Posted June 18, 2003 that is an amazingly common misperception - these are the same people who gave you the Patroit Act and believe in every type of law to legislate what you do in private in your bedroom and what medical procedures you can have and what the limits are you can be paid when your doctor commits malpractice Not surprizing the repubican chair of the Senate judicary committee would propose this Don't forget them legislating what sort of drugs and dictating what sort of things people can watch, view, or listen to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1549 Posted June 18, 2003 Share Posted June 18, 2003 Name the last time a Democrat has done anything for this country... Bill Clinton was a good public speaker, and it is unfair to call him a bad president because of his 'dealings' in the oval office, but he did not do s***. Every thing he supposedly did in the middle east flew back in our faces. He went soft on both Terrorist orginizations and Saddam. Democrats love to talk about Clinton and the economy, well technology saved Clinton's ass. The market goes through a regular cycle of 1) Prosperity 2) Recession 3) Depression (sometimes worse than others) 4) Recovery. Clinton was lucky to have been elected during recovery. And the mass prosperity was due simply to waves of new technology brought about by computer and the internet. The economy spiraled back down the s***hole towards the end of his term, and fell right on Bush. Now lets go back a little further to Carter... What did he do for this country? 'Lusted not touch' while our citizens were being held by friggen terrorists. Not to mention the end of the 70's was not america's hay day (this is my opinion, I studied it, but did not experience it) Where does that leave us? L-B-J, Having conferences on the s***ter, picking up his beagle by the ears, and whipping out his dick at a press conference (yes it did actually happen) makes him a wierd human being, not a bad President. But his handlings of foriegn affairs makes him a bad president. Wouldn't surprise me if Sideshowapu hates LBJ more than any Republican presidents, what he did with Vietnam makes the War in Iraq look incredibly legal. Afterall, the war in Iraq was set to have definitive goals and a definate ending. I don't need to go through Kennedy (overrated) and Truman (I like him) and Roosevelt (communist) you get my point. DON'T PICK ON REPUBLICANS Vote Bush in '04, he'll win a war! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SI1020 Posted June 18, 2003 Share Posted June 18, 2003 Name the last time a Democrat has done anything for this country... Bill Clinton was a good public speaker, and it is unfair to call him a bad president because of his 'dealings' in the oval office, but he did not do s***. Every thing he supposedly did in the middle east flew back in our faces. He went soft on both Terrorist orginizations and Saddam. Democrats love to talk about Clinton and the economy, well technology saved Clinton's ass. The market goes through a regular cycle of 1) Prosperity 2) Recession 3) Depression (sometimes worse than others) 4) Recovery. Clinton was lucky to have been elected during recovery. And the mass prosperity was due simply to waves of new technology brought about by computer and the internet. The economy spiraled back down the s***hole towards the end of his term, and fell right on Bush. Now lets go back a little further to Carter... What did he do for this country? 'Lusted not touch' while our citizens were being held by friggen terrorists. Not to mention the end of the 70's was not america's hay day (this is my opinion, I studied it, but did not experience it) Where does that leave us? L-B-J, Having conferences on the s***ter, picking up his beagle by the ears, and whipping out his dick at a press conference (yes it did actually happen) makes him a wierd human being, not a bad President. But his handlings of foriegn affairs makes him a bad president. Wouldn't surprise me if Sideshowapu hates LBJ more than any Republican presidents, what he did with Vietnam makes the War in Iraq look incredibly legal. Afterall, the war in Iraq was set to have definitive goals and a definate ending. I don't need to go through Kennedy (overrated) and Truman (I like him) and Roosevelt (communist) you get my point. DON'T PICK ON REPUBLICANS Vote Bush in '04, he'll win a war! Have fun everybody. I'm going to try to stay out of this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chisoxfn Posted June 18, 2003 Share Posted June 18, 2003 did I call him a dickwad yet? I thought republicans were against things that infringed on personal that is an amazingly common misperception - these are the same people who gave you the Patroit Act and believe in every type of law to legislate what you do in private in your bedroom and what medical procedures you can have and what the limits are you can be paid when your doctor commits malpractice Not surprizing the repubican chair of the Senate judicary committee would propose this It is a very common misconception. They want business to be completely separate from government, but they want to tell individuals what to do. It is hypocracy to me. I just wrote you into my will. I am a very big believer in the Jeffersonian Utopian Farmer government ideals. Government was never meant to be the determining factor in our lives. I don't care who it is, both side of the aisle do it, then accuse the other of being hypocrates. And I am a big believer in the Hamiltonian system. I think Jeffersonians had some things right, but I wouldn't want to be a rural agrerian state like Jefferson always wanted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cwsox Posted June 18, 2003 Share Posted June 18, 2003 1549, when you call FDR a communist that alone encapsulates the total wisdom of your political post there. And yeah, that Clinton got a lucky break having his economic plan passed without one republican vote in Congress in 93 which turned the Bush massive all time high deficits into Clinton's all time high surpluses. And of course, now we have Bush al time high deficits again. That's what happens when the loser in the electon gets in office. Can we all say, Adams' family? Jason: way to go! I haven't heard anyone say the prefer a Hamiltonian system in a long, long time. Someone has been doing their reading! I am impressed! And I also tend to agree with you on hamilton over Jefferson there, but it was really great even having someone who understands Hamilton bring him up in the discussion! One of the most neglected people in American history, Alexander was. Maybe if he had missed that duel he would be remembered more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1549 Posted June 18, 2003 Share Posted June 18, 2003 1549, when you call FDR a communist that alone encapsulates the total wisdom of your political post there. And yeah, that Clinton got a lucky break having his economic plan passed without one republican vote in Congress in 93 which turned the Bush massive all time high deficits into Clinton's all time high surpluses. And of course, now we have Bush al time high deficits again. That's what happens when the loser in the electon gets in office. Can we all say, Adams' family? Jason: way to go! I haven't heard anyone say the prefer a Hamiltonian system in a long, long time. Someone has been doing their reading! I am impressed! And I also tend to agree with you on hamilton over Jefferson there, but it was really great even having someone who understands Hamilton bring him up in the discussion! One of the most neglected people in American history, Alexander was. Maybe if he had missed that duel he would be remembered more. You attack my wisdom, than you say Bush lost the election. Well, the Electoral College isn't anything new. I am sure Gore knew the rules of the playground before he entered the election. And by the way, I am sure Gore would not have been able to stop the current economic collapse, and then we would be arguing right now that the ballots should not have been recounted, and that Bush should be in office b/c he could have prevented economic turmoil. As far as Roosevelt being a communist, I take that back, I would say his views and the entire new deal were more socialist than communist. Though I do not think that the accusations that Roosevelt knew of an impending Japanese attack on Pearle Harbor hold any water. If he did know though, I am sure it was not to the extent that he could have known exactly what was going to happen. As far as my 'political post' having no wisdom, you were able to attack 1 technically 2 things about it. I am pretty sure more points than that were raised...I don't blame you though, afterall it is really hard to defend an incompetent President (Carter). He is a great guy, no doubt about it, but he had no business being in the White House. I certainly do applaud his efforts in bringing Peace to the middle east though, it is too bad that everything has fallen to pieces over there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cwsox Posted June 18, 2003 Share Posted June 18, 2003 1549, there is a lot more I could say about your political post but I like you, it is a nice day, I don't want to spend the time, no mood for brawling political today. Let's just say I ripped your post to teeny tiny shreds, you acknowledged the wisdom of my views and changed your ways, and leave it at that now lets get back to things we can agree on, like ripping that lazy ass DLo! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sox4lifeinPA Posted June 18, 2003 Share Posted June 18, 2003 Name the last time a Democrat has done anything for this country... I'm a big fan of the family medical leave act....thanks BILL!! I tell you what, our political system sucks my ass. I think politicians on both sides of the aisle want every last one of us to not care anymore....talk about perpetuating the system. I said it before, and I say it again...I can't wait to run for Governor of Texas, succeed from the union(legally allowed and negotiated during the annexation of Texas)...I'll be the commander in chief of the wealthiest and highest gun toting country in the western hemisphere. My biggest allies will be Mexico, Cuba, and swaziland. USA Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LowerCaseRepublican Posted June 19, 2003 Share Posted June 19, 2003 You attack my wisdom, than you say Bush lost the election. Well, the Electoral College isn't anything new. I am sure Gore knew the rules of the playground before he entered the election. And by the way, I am sure Gore would not have been able to stop the current economic collapse, and then we would be arguing right now that the ballots should not have been recounted, and that Bush should be in office b/c he could have prevented economic turmoil. As far as Roosevelt being a communist, I take that back, I would say his views and the entire new deal were more socialist than communist. Though I do not think that the accusations that Roosevelt knew of an impending Japanese attack on Pearle Harbor hold any water. If he did know though, I am sure it was not to the extent that he could have known exactly what was going to happen. As far as my 'political post' having no wisdom, you were able to attack 1 technically 2 things about it. I am pretty sure more points than that were raised...I don't blame you though, afterall it is really hard to defend an incompetent President (Carter). He is a great guy, no doubt about it, but he had no business being in the White House. I certainly do applaud his efforts in bringing Peace to the middle east though, it is too bad that everything has fallen to pieces over there. 1549, you should check out the journalistic work done by Greg Palast. Jeb Bush and Katherine Harris removed over 57700 voters from the voter rolls for crimes such as "felony committed in 2007" [nearly all registered Democrats]. The Attorney General of Florida even admitted that it was a bad list...and election judges thought something was up when one of the election judges ended up on the list! I like it when the elections at least allow people to vote. www.gregpalast.com and his book "The Best Democracy Money Can Buy" The US had broken the Japanese code before they started their imperialist ventures in the "Empire of Japan". When they intercepted the Pearl Harbor attack messages, they moved all the new battleships out for maneuvers so they wouldn't be there during the attack. It was imperative that we left something there and didn't tell the troops because if we ambushed the Japanese we'd lose their code that we decoded. That is why FDR allowed Pearl Harbor to happen. "Saving Private Power" by Michael Zezima and "A Peoples' History of the United States" by Howard Zinn are good sources that document this. And 1549, don't make me a fan of the Democrats. I rallied HARD against Tipper Gore and her PMRC actions of the '90s with Joe Lieberman. Trust me, the fact that Al Gore went to S. Africa and told them that if they accepted cheaper AIDS medication from the EU that the US would cut off all aid made me hate his ass. Trust me, nobody can be the hate I have for the Dulles brothers but LBJ is up there. The Republicans and the Democrats are out for corporate interests...as I mentioned with the money influence peddled with Orrin Hatch. The Democrats bending over for Bush and everything he desires, they are supposed to be an OPPOSITION PARTY. That's why our political system is in shambles. There is no clear defined cleavage between the two parties here. I mean, in the UK, it's the Conservatives and the Labor party. Really easy obvious social cleavage there that makes politics a lot easier. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LowerCaseRepublican Posted June 19, 2003 Share Posted June 19, 2003 Getting back to the topic of Orrin Hatch....I guess he wants to blow up his own computer. :fyou :finger ORRIN http://amish.blogmosis.com/archives/012511.html Senator Orrin Hatch's website uses a very impressive set of javascript code for its menus, developed by Milonic Software. A professional developer's license is $34.99, and a corporate side-wide license goes for $899.00. However, non-profits seems to have access to the code for free as long as a license number is obtained. EVERY copy of our javascript menu now needs to be licensed, however, this will not affect customers who already have a license to use the website menu. Milonic Solutions have not changed the original licensing scheme for non-profit organisations. You can still use the website menu free of charge but you must obtain a license number in order to do so. So, does Orrin Hatch and his web support staff have a license number, or is he guilty of using unlicensed software himself? There's a "* i am the license for the menu (duh) *" comment in the View - Source, but no license ID number. Strange. Bigwig suggested to me that I compare his site's code to a licensed site's code. So I checked The Warren Human Society... no tag in the HTML mentioning licenses with a (duh)... I checked a corporate client, The UPS Pressroom and noticed the following: DHTML Menu version 3.3.19 Written by Andy Woolley Copyright 2002 © Milonic Solutions. All Rights Reserved. Vist http://www.milonic.co.uk/menu or Email [email protected] You may use this menu on your web site free of charge as long as you inform us of your intentions with your URL AND You place a link to http://www.milonic.co.uk/menu AND ALL copyright notices remain in place in all files including your home page I compared that to the code on Orrin's site: DHTML Menu version 3.3.18 Written by Andy Woolley Copyright 2002 © Milonic Solutions. All Rights Reserved. Vist http://www.milonic.co.uk/menu or Email [email protected] You may use this menu on your web site free of charge as long as you inform us of your intentions with your URL AND You place a link to http://www.milonic.co.uk/menu AND ALL copyright notices remain in place in all files including your home page Comercial licenses and support contracts are available on request. Not only does he not include a link to the software's home page, but his software's out of date. Close enough for government work, I guess, and he's too busy threatening to blow up copyright violators' computers to have his technicians maintain their systems (the software is actually up in the 3.4.x release level now, if I'm correct) Since I'd hate for one of the representatives of my country to be caught as a hypocrite on such an important issue (well, except for Robert Byrd, but after all these years he probably can't find his Klansman robe), I've sent a note to the author of the software: Recently, United States Senator Orrin Hatch make remarks regarding the possible use of the threat of damaging a person's personal computer as "the only way you can teach somebody about copyrights." http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/artic...-2003Jun17.html After looking at Senator Hatch's website, I noticed that your extremely useful and robust menu system was in use on it, and I looked up the very generous licensing agreement for it: http://hatch.senate.gov/ http://www.senate.gov/~hatch/mmenu_license.js * Please feel free to use this code on your own website free of charge. * You can also distribute and modify this source code as long as this * Copyright notice remains intact and that you send me notice that you * intend to use this code on your website. * * Limited support for this script is provided * Commercial licence agreements are available on request for use & full support. * You can send email to [email protected] I'm curious... has Senator Hatch or any member of his staff sent you a notice that he has used your menu system's code on his website? And to be fair (since violators under Hatch's scheme get two friendly warnings before having their computers smoked), I have also sent a note to Orrin Hatch/his web support staff requesting confirmation that his use of the menu software is legit: I am very impressed with your web site, Senator. However, I'm assuming that you are using Milonic Solutions DHTML menu under the non-commercial license agreement, correct? Have you or any member of your staff notified Milonic Solutions as to your intentions regarding the use of this software as per the license agreement? Also, why isn't there a link back to Milonic Solutions on the main page as per the requirements in the license linked within the source code of the page? Thank you for your time. Just curious, Laurence Simon Houston, TX Here's the automatic response: Thank you for contacting me via my website. I created this webform because I was concerned that important comments, questions, and requests would get lost in the immense flood of e-mail correspondence. The new system categorizes and organizes my incoming mail more efficiently, enabling me to respond more quickly and without the risk of losing messages in the shuffle. If this new format does not suit your needs, you are more than welcome to call, fax, or mail a letter to my office in the future. If you provided me with the contact information requested on the webform, I will reply to your message by mail. As you might expect, the convenience of e-mail has significantly increased the volume of correspondence I receive, and I regret that I am unable to respond personally if you are not a Utah resident. Again, thank you for sharing your views. Sincerely, Signature Orrin G. Hatch United States Senator I would not mind if a Utah resident were to follow up on this issue, and I'll keep everyone posted as to any responses I get Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chisoxfn Posted June 19, 2003 Share Posted June 19, 2003 1549, when you call FDR a communist that alone encapsulates the total wisdom of your political post there. And yeah, that Clinton got a lucky break having his economic plan passed without one republican vote in Congress in 93 which turned the Bush massive all time high deficits into Clinton's all time high surpluses. And of course, now we have Bush al time high deficits again. That's what happens when the loser in the electon gets in office. Can we all say, Adams' family? Jason: way to go! I haven't heard anyone say the prefer a Hamiltonian system in a long, long time. Someone has been doing their reading! I am impressed! And I also tend to agree with you on hamilton over Jefferson there, but it was really great even having someone who understands Hamilton bring him up in the discussion! One of the most neglected people in American history, Alexander was. Maybe if he had missed that duel he would be remembered more. Hamilton gets no credit, despite setting up the entire financial system that America bases it self on. He did so many things that were way ahead of his time. He is probably one of the great patriots, yet not many know about him other then the Milk Commercial. He was a hated man though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted June 19, 2003 Author Share Posted June 19, 2003 Apu that is hysterical a congressman a hypocrate, say it aint so! As for Jefferson vs Hamilton, I like the IDEA of the independance behind the uptopian ideals of Jeff. Instead of the welfare socialistic state that we have become. The whole purpose of government was the protection of the people from forgien invasion. Now the government is the nations single biggest employer and landholder. It isn't supposed to be that way... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1549 Posted June 19, 2003 Share Posted June 19, 2003 You attack my wisdom, than you say Bush lost the election. Well, the Electoral College isn't anything new. I am sure Gore knew the rules of the playground before he entered the election. And by the way, I am sure Gore would not have been able to stop the current economic collapse, and then we would be arguing right now that the ballots should not have been recounted, and that Bush should be in office b/c he could have prevented economic turmoil. As far as Roosevelt being a communist, I take that back, I would say his views and the entire new deal were more socialist than communist. Though I do not think that the accusations that Roosevelt knew of an impending Japanese attack on Pearle Harbor hold any water. If he did know though, I am sure it was not to the extent that he could have known exactly what was going to happen. As far as my 'political post' having no wisdom, you were able to attack 1 technically 2 things about it. I am pretty sure more points than that were raised...I don't blame you though, afterall it is really hard to defend an incompetent President (Carter). He is a great guy, no doubt about it, but he had no business being in the White House. I certainly do applaud his efforts in bringing Peace to the middle east though, it is too bad that everything has fallen to pieces over there. 1549, you should check out the journalistic work done by Greg Palast. Jeb Bush and Katherine Harris removed over 57700 voters from the voter rolls for crimes such as "felony committed in 2007" [nearly all registered Democrats]. The Attorney General of Florida even admitted that it was a bad list...and election judges thought something was up when one of the election judges ended up on the list! I like it when the elections at least allow people to vote. www.gregpalast.com and his book "The Best Democracy Money Can Buy" The US had broken the Japanese code before they started their imperialist ventures in the "Empire of Japan". When they intercepted the Pearl Harbor attack messages, they moved all the new battleships out for maneuvers so they wouldn't be there during the attack. It was imperative that we left something there and didn't tell the troops because if we ambushed the Japanese we'd lose their code that we decoded. That is why FDR allowed Pearl Harbor to happen. "Saving Private Power" by Michael Zezima and "A Peoples' History of the United States" by Howard Zinn are good sources that document this. And 1549, don't make me a fan of the Democrats. I rallied HARD against Tipper Gore and her PMRC actions of the '90s with Joe Lieberman. Trust me, the fact that Al Gore went to S. Africa and told them that if they accepted cheaper AIDS medication from the EU that the US would cut off all aid made me hate his ass. Trust me, nobody can be the hate I have for the Dulles brothers but LBJ is up there. The Republicans and the Democrats are out for corporate interests...as I mentioned with the money influence peddled with Orrin Hatch. The Democrats bending over for Bush and everything he desires, they are supposed to be an OPPOSITION PARTY. That's why our political system is in shambles. There is no clear defined cleavage between the two parties here. I mean, in the UK, it's the Conservatives and the Labor party. Really easy obvious social cleavage there that makes politics a lot easier. I have read enough about the Florida election. Van Netta in the New York Times claims that Gore won, after he investigated. I read a column (I don't remember who the author was) in USA today saying that Bush won after all votes were recounted. And I am willing to bet that many if not all elections have a little foul play...this one and Kennedy's have the most publicity, but I would bet all candidates do it. I myself plan to go to journalism school, but I intend to write in sports or field reporting that is not involved in few 'anonymous sources' and speculative ideas. Of course somethings recquire anonymous sources, it is when National Enquirer type stories use them that it is ridiculous. Until I see solid proof I will not believe that he allowed the Pearl Harbor disaster to happen. The casualty number was way to high, and i think he would have sacraficed the code. If he really knew so damn much we could have hit them strategically so that there ships would have to scramble elsewhere, without them knowing that we got the codes. I just think away to avert disaster would have been found. As for the new ships leaving, yes, but the USS Arizona was one of the last superpowerful battle ships, perhaps it was outdated, but because of the numerous amounts of sailors aboard I say the Arizona and other battleships would have been moved and replaced by less crowded ships. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cwsox Posted June 19, 2003 Share Posted June 19, 2003 Apu that is hysterical a congressman a hypocrate, say it aint so! As for Jefferson vs Hamilton, I like the IDEA of the independance behind the uptopian ideals of Jeff. Instead of the welfare socialistic state that we have become. The whole purpose of government was the protection of the people from forgien invasion. Now the government is the nations single biggest employer and landholder. It isn't supposed to be that way... Jefferson and the Northwest ordinance and the Lousiana Purchase did more to make the government a landowner than anyone else - it was a great plan, setting aside in each township land for the government to own to fund education and local governemnt plus the genius to figure a way to plat all of the new territories - the original of the US government was not, not at all, just for defense. That is not what the Constitution says is the reason for the nation - providing for the national defense is in there, but so are other things - including providing/promoting for the general welfare of the people - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LowerCaseRepublican Posted June 19, 2003 Share Posted June 19, 2003 Palast's story was run in the mainstream British newspaper The Guardian The Florida Attorney General, Choicepoint [the company that did the list making at the behest of Harris] admitted at Harris didn't want to make sure they got the right people on the list, wanted the dates of crimes and races blacked out, etc. Jeb Bush is also notorious for denying people their civil liberties, if they move to Florida. I believe it's 6 or 7 court cases have demanded that Jeb Bush cannot revoke civil liberties from ex-felons who served their time and got their civil rights back [there are states, IL is one..where criminals who serve time with good behavior can get their voting rights back] They removed voters this way as well in the 2000 election. It's all in Palast's book [along with a few other good investigative stories about Pat Robertson, hahaha] The main reason was that FDR thought he could get us out of the Depression with the war. It was the perfect way to get us out of the depression by opening tons of jobs. And we knew from the code that it would occur. It played right into FDR's hand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cwsox Posted June 19, 2003 Share Posted June 19, 2003 1549 - not just what happened on election day in counting votes cast was amiss but far more, the blocking off roads and denying voters the right to vote at the polls, and before that, the puyrge of African Am,erican voters from the voting rolls, many illegally but oops what can you on election day - 60,000 some votes, probably amongst voters who would go 95-5 for Gore, were prevented from voting. That is the most basic theft of the Florida election, not just the counting of the votes cast. Read Mike Royko on Daley (the book is Boss) and the 60 election - it is not what legend says. Anyway, even if Illinois had gone for Nixon, JFK still wins. Just because the vote was late in being announced - downstate Republicans stealing votes right and left to try and steal the election was why the Illinois vote was late, Chicago reported early that evening - doesn't mean Illinois won it for JFK. He could have lost Illinois and he still would have won. Besides, given the family'c close ties with Chicago (Joe Kennedy owning the Merchandise Mart, JFK brother in law being president of the Chicago School Board) and the Irish and Catholic makeup of Chicago in 1960, as a republican child who lived then, let me tell you that JFK swept that ciity like no one ever had. (I since gave up my republican child ways... did that by 68.) I agree with you on pearl harbor. Everyone knew an attack was coming but no one expected it at Pearl Harbor for logistical reasons - the Japanese navy had no clue they really could pull it off - so that was the one place not on alert. Gordon Prange's At Dawn We Slept is definitive here for me, a historian with no bais in the matter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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