KW to be on AM 1000 at 9:40

[southsider2k5]

well it sounds like we just want him to have surgery so that we can get him for less. s*** if hes not hurt just resign him for the money. Whats he asking anyway. If we lose Crede I can't think of one person who can replace his glove and bat.

 

Or we want him to have surgery to allieviate back problems that have caused him to miss games for two years in a row now...

[nitetrain8601]

Why are you so confident he couldn't turn it around?

 

Just wondering.

 

I'd never be against acquiring a good young arm like Ervin. I think there's a reason that Anaheim wouldn't give him up for Carl Crawford.

 

I thought Anaheim offered him up for Crawford, but TB wanted more.

[Kalapse]

I thought Anaheim offered him up for Crawford, but TB wanted more.

This is true, I believe Tampa wanted Santana and Wood but Anaheim was having no part of it.

[Chisoxfn]

This is true, I believe Tampa wanted Santana and Wood but Anaheim was having no part of it.

Yep. As far as those quoting Santana's road stats, I'd just like to point out that he's pitching in Anaheim stadium, which as far as I'm concerned is a hitters park. In fact I think its one of the bigger hitters parks in all of baseball (although those numbers may be down a bit because there offense was freaking terrible).

[GoodAsGould]

Id want Santana and another prospect maybe... but yeah Im assuming Kendrick and Wood are both near untouchables.

[santo=dorf]

QUOTE(Chisoxfn @ Oct 2, 2006 -> 02:00 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yep. As far as those quoting Santana's road stats, I'd just like to point out that he's pitching in Anaheim stadium, which as far as I'm concerned is a hitters park. In fact I think its one of the bigger hitters parks in all of baseball (although those numbers may be down a bit because their offense was freaking terrible).

This post makes no sense.

 

You think Anaheim stadium is a hitter's park (disagree) but it doesn't explain why he is terrible on the road, and why it would make sense to acquire him when he would pitch in Anaheim maybe once next season if he was on our team.

 

If a guy doesn't play well in the other 29 parks, I don't want him on our team.

[RockRaines]

This post makes no sense.

 

You think Anaheim stadium is a hitter's park (disagree) but it doesn't explain why he is terrible on the road, and why it would make sense to acquire him when he would pitch in Anaheim maybe once next season if he was on our team.

 

If a guy doesn't play well in the other 29 parks, I don't want him on our team.

You know, before this year, people said Soriano couldnt hit in any other parks.

[Balta1701]

You know, before this year, people said Soriano couldnt hit in any other parks.

But you know what? Just because 1 guy was able to move into a new park without having his numbers decrease doesn't mean that all home/road performance metrics are worthless.

 

A lot of times, there are specific reasons why people are good in one place and bad in others. One should be careful in evaluating the driving forces before making blanket statements. Would one have expected Soriano's numbers to decrease moving from Texas to Washington? Based only on the ballparks, yes. But on the other hand, Soriano also was not going to be facing as good of pitching when moving to the NL. So there are multiple dynamics at work here.

 

I don't know why Ervin Santana was worse in one place than in another. Sometimes it just happens. But you can't just throw the numbers out the window because they didn't apply to Soriano.

[Kalapse]

There is something that doesnt really make sense in all of it.

 

After reading the reports, everything I can see says if Joe was to have surgery tomorrow, he could get things going again no problem by Spring, so it's not like having this surgery is going to cut into playing time. The White Sox organization seems to want Joe to have this surgery. Yet his agent,Boras, is against Joe going under the knife. I then ask why? Why would Boras NOT want Crede to have surgery. Is he going to get worse after the surgery? If he was, why would the Sox want him to do it? If the White Sox organization thinks in any way Crede is going to be worse off AFTER the surgery, that would be the worst case scenario. Now you dont want to re-sign him, plus you cant get anything of value for him.

 

So again, why is Boras against Joe getting the surgery done?

When you look at that 28 year old thirdbaseman's resume as you contemplate how much money he's worth to you and you see that he's had back surgery, no matter how minor it's still going to stick out that he's had to go under the knife due to his back.

[RockRaines]

But you know what? Just because 1 guy was able to move into a new park without having his numbers decrease doesn't mean that all home/road performance metrics are worthless.

 

A lot of times, there are specific reasons why people are good in one place and bad in others. One should be careful in evaluating the driving forces before making blanket statements. Would one have expected Soriano's numbers to decrease moving from Texas to Washington? Based only on the ballparks, yes. But on the other hand, Soriano also was not going to be facing as good of pitching when moving to the NL. So there are multiple dynamics at work here.

 

I don't know why Ervin Santana was worse in one place than in another. Sometimes it just happens. But you can't just throw the numbers out the window because they didn't apply to Soriano.

Every expert on this board said that Soriano couldnt hit outside of his ballpark, and his power numbers especially wont be there. There are factors about everything, lineups, coaching, s*** if the hot tub in the clubhouse is nice enough. Fact is, Santana is a good pitcher. He is young, talented, and is worth a lot IMO.

[G&T]

There is something that doesnt really make sense in all of it.

 

After reading the reports, everything I can see says if Joe was to have surgery tomorrow, he could get things going again no problem by Spring, so it's not like having this surgery is going to cut into playing time. The White Sox organization seems to want Joe to have this surgery. Yet his agent,Boras, is against Joe going under the knife. I then ask why? Why would Boras NOT want Crede to have surgery. Is he going to get worse after the surgery? If he was, why would the Sox want him to do it? If the White Sox organization thinks in any way Crede is going to be worse off AFTER the surgery, that would be the worst case scenario. Now you dont want to re-sign him, plus you cant get anything of value for him.

 

So again, why is Boras against Joe getting the surgery done?

 

Obviously I don't know for sure, but it could be that Boras wants to force a one year deal and make sure Crede gets to free-agency by simply being difficult. If Crede ignores what the Sox tell him to do, he is likely to be traded to a team, during the winter, that might be willing to deal with Boras, or the Sox will give him a contact and trade him during the season. Either way, Boras gets his client to free agency. After Crede has a more certain future, he will have surgery.

That's about the best I can come up with.

[Kyyle23]

When you look at that 28 year old thirdbaseman's resume as you contemplate how much money he's worth to you and you see that he's had back surgery, no matter how minor it's still going to stick out that he's had to go under the knife due to his back.

 

I agree with this, but the cat is out of the bag in regards to Joe needing surgery. I think it will either stick out that Joe had to go under the knife, or it will stick out that Joe needs to go under the knife. Either way, I think Joe's problematic back is going to cost him some dough in his next contract.

[G&T]

When you look at that 28 year old thirdbaseman's resume as you contemplate how much money he's worth to you and you see that he's had back surgery, no matter how minor it's still going to stick out that he's had to go under the knife due to his back.

 

I don't buy this because, if anything, Boras should want him to have surgery now, then go to free agency later after a season of proving himself. Mags had major surgery and got a big contract. Surgery is meaningless to most teams now.

[SnB]

why didn't someone say "SNB, don't come in" on the thread title.

 

[Kalapse]

I don't buy this because, if anything, Boras should want him to have surgery now, then go to free agency later after a season of proving himself. Mags had major surgery and got a big contract. Surgery is meaningless to most teams now.

Maggs absolutely needed that surgery, he wouldn't be walking if he didn't have it. Crede does not NEED to have this surgery, he could just as easily rehab his back this offseason and come back strong next year. The surgery would make the club feel a lot better about Joe's future but it's not a necessity for him so why would Boras want his client to have unnecessary surgery?

 

Also with Maggs, the Tigers were basically the only team to offer Magglio big money in free agency, they came out right away with guns blazing when it looked like Magglio was not going to recieve a huge contract they went out of their way to get him in Detroit. Surgery does mean something to teams, it means a whole hell of a lot but Boras does have a way of convincing team's everything is alright and that they should throw large amounts of money his clients way but at the same time any surgery Crede does have is only going to make it a little more difficult to trick some team when looking to get Crede his monster deal.

[G&T]

Maggs absolutely needed that surgery, he wouldn't be walking if he didn't have it. Crede does not NEED to have this surgery, he could just as easily rehab his back this offseason and come back strong next year. The surgery would make the club feel a lot better about Joe's future but it's not a necessity for him so why would Boras want his client to have unnecessary surgery?

 

Also with Maggs, the Tigers were basically the only team to offer Magglio big money in free agency, they came out right away with guns blazing when it looked like Magglio was not going to recieve a huge contract they went out of their way to get him in Detroit. Surgery does mean something to teams, it means a whole hell of a lot but Boras does have a way of convincing team's everything is alright and that they should throw large amounts of money his clients way but at the same time any surgery Crede does have is only going to make it a little more difficult to trick some team when looking to get Crede his monster deal.

 

But Crede might have to sit out a bunch of games because of back pain if he doesn't have it, which means other teams will still be nervous about signing him. To me, it makes sense for him to have surgery now, take another one year deal, then go to free agency after a year to prove himself. If the Sox are right and this surgery is very minor, it makes no sense to me that Boras would be against it.

This is why I feel like Boras wants to force a trade. Crede will deffinitely go to free agency and won't care about home town discounts or trying to help out the Sox like PK did. This also means that Boras could renegotiate his contract before having surgery, which, like you say, would help his current value.

 

I'm reading WAY too far into this. But, basically, unless Crede steps in and works something out, Boras is going to be a problem.

Edited October 2, 2006 by G&T

[RockRaines]

Man I hope Crede doesnt leave. He is a class act and one fo the best ballplayers we have homegrown in awhile.

[Balta1701]

Man I hope Crede doesnt leave. He is a class act and one fo the best ballplayers we have homegrown in awhile.

Before the whole contract mess...would people have considered Ordonez to be a class act?

[southsider2k5]

Before the whole contract mess...would people have considered Ordonez to be a class act?

 

And he was, at least publically, until he started lying to, and about, people.

[santo=dorf]

Say, how did the Jason Johnson signing work out for the Indians last year? 2005 stats: 4.54 ERA, 1.34 WHIP and I seem to remember a lot of people dismissing the Comerica home ballpark factor because his overall numbers were still good.

 

Home: 2.76 ERA, 1.16 WHIP

Road: 6.66 ERA, 1.56 WHIP

 

I remember posting this over and over claiming the guy would suck for the Indians because he couldn't bank on Comerica. There are players who can pitch so well at one ballpark, they can make their overall numbers look good. Ervin Santana appears to be one of these players.

 

As for Soriano, two words:

Contract. Year.

 

Two more:

National. League.

[cuddlyboy26]

If the White Sox are so high on Fields like I am reading in this thread why would they want to sign Crede to a long term deal? Or is that they want to sign him for little enough money they can make him Fields backup next year, or the 2-3-4 years after next year?

[SinkingShip06]

Actually it appears that the Ordonez thing worked out well for all parties involved. With him we probably would not have gotten to the World Series.

 

Without him the Tigers may have had a tougher time getting where they are this year.

 

I'm happy with the results.

 

he's sucking up so much money for being an average outfielder. he's got a bad knee that will never be 100% and he'll never be healthy for the rest of his life. i think WE got the better of that one.

[Chisoxfn]

This post makes no sense.

 

You think Anaheim stadium is a hitter's park (disagree) but it doesn't explain why he is terrible on the road, and why it would make sense to acquire him when he would pitch in Anaheim maybe once next season if he was on our team.

 

If a guy doesn't play well in the other 29 parks, I don't want him on our team.

Its quiet simple. Usually people say a guy stinks on the road simply because he's pitching in a pitchers park. For example if Santana was a Dodger and had an awful road pslit and a good home split I'd see reason for concern.

 

However, if you can get outs in a hitters park (which Anaheim is) than you should be able to get them anywhere. there are always fluke type of stats that fluctuate from year to year. All I know is one thing, Santana is a good looking pitching prospect who I'd take on this ball club in a heart beat.

 

Every expert on this board said that Soriano couldnt hit outside of his ballpark, and his power numbers especially wont be there. There are factors about everything, lineups, coaching, s*** if the hot tub in the clubhouse is nice enough. Fact is, Santana is a good pitcher. He is young, talented, and is worth a lot IMO.

Touche. And a lot of people have vastly underrated Soriano's stats and numbers for a long long time.

[GoodAsGould]

Chisoxfan I know you live near the Angels and everything but you are the only person ive ever heard call it a hitters ballpark. Everyone I have talked to about it and whenevr I hear about it on ESPN its moreso refered to as a pitchers ballpark. Now not to the degree of Seattle/Oakland both in your division but still benefits pitchers more than hitters.

[Rowand44]

I'd LOVE to have Ervin Santana on the Sox. He's still young and he's going to get better. He's not going to be as good as McCarthy but he's going to be a very solid starter, hell he's already pretty damn good. Like I said about Michael Young, Santana will be good no matter where he plays

Edited October 2, 2006 by Rowand44