Brian Anderson

[The Ginger Kid]

You really shouldn't even bother debating it with people anymore. There will always be the few on here who will bring no real reasoning, logic or stats to their comments and make statements like that. It's not very hard to just make a comment like that, it's incredibly difficult to back up however so you'll likely only see a few posts like that in every thread with no rebuttal to criticizm because they're not interested in backing up their asinine comments.

 

Nice try.

 

Ozzie made him the starter coming out of spring training, for one. He chooses who will start and who will sit (regardless of what many may believe).

 

When Brian slumped right out of the gate (with the exception of opening day) Ozzie made the decision to stay with him and not send him down or bench him. It was a very real possibility that Brian was going to get sent down. You may recall there were several articles on this subject in the Chicago press last June. Kenny supported that decision. You might also check some of Brian's comments about the conversation he had with Kenny and Ozzie, how it bolstered his confidence.

 

In an effort to protect Brian he started using Rob in CF more, sacrificing defense to try and provide more pop to a sluggish lineup. Do you honestly think Ozzie Guillen doesn't realize that Mack is weaker at defense than BA? It's for this reason, I believe, that Brian was able to have a strong second half. He's a rookie on a world series team and he admitted that he was floundering and struggling to stay positive.

 

So I guess that makes me asinine.

 

But you, you're a genius who knows so much more about baseball than anyone on these boards and obviously more than a guy who played it professionally his entire life and managed a team to a championship in only his second season. Bravo.

[Balta1701]

When Brian slumped right out of the gate (with the exception of opening day) Ozzie made the decision to stay with him and not send him down or bench him. It was a very real possibility that Brian was going to get sent down. You may recall there were several articles on this subject in the Chicago press last June. Kenny supported that decision. You might also check some of Brian's comments about the conversation he had with Kenny and Ozzie, how it bolstered his confidence.

 

In an effort to protect Brian he started using Rob in CF more, sacrificing defense to try and provide more pop to a sluggish lineup. Do you honestly think Ozzie Guillen doesn't realize that Mack is weaker at defense than BA? It's for this reason, I believe, that Brian was able to have a strong second half. He's a rookie on a world series team and he admitted that he was floundering and struggling to stay positive.

But here's the key point you're missing...the 2nd half of the season was totally different than the first. In the first 2 months, Brian Anderson was hitting .180 or lower...and Rob Mackowiak was hitting over .300. Anderson was better against righties, but Mack was murdering them. Every game Mack played, he cost us at least a run, sometimes more. But the difference of another lefty bat in the lineup somewhat helped make up for that. It probably did help the kid's confidence some as well, and it certainly gave him more time to work.

 

But in the 2nd half...Anderson improved. He finally learned how to swing for line drives, and his average started to climb. He hit above .250 for several months in a row. Meanwhile, Rob Mackowiak's numbers took a plunge off the deep end. By almost any metric you look at, Anderson and Mackowiak put up virtually identical numbers in the 2nd half offensively...and this was with Anderson facing mostly lefties, who he is worse against, and being protected from dominant righties like Bruce Chen and Carlos Silva. Seriously, how in the world does it help Brian Anderson's confidence to sit him on the bench against right handers who are being killed, when its costing the team games, when he is hitting better against righties, and when he's not facing the greatest righties in human history?

 

So, when Anderson improved, and Mackowiak got worse, what happened? Ozzie gave Mack more playing time, not less. We had a stretch in August, a key stretch, 7 games against Detroit and the Twins. What happens? Ozzie plays Mack in CF 4 out of the first 6 games, and we wind up being beaten up pretty badly, and at least a couple of those games, Mack's defense gave up key runs. And it just kept happening.

 

Yes, it made sense to sit Anderson some in the first half. But it made no sense at all to sit him in the 2nd half. Mackowiak was no where near as good, Anderson was better, Anderson was a better hitter against righties but never was given the chance to face them, Anderson had much more room for improvement and could have used the at bats, and having Mackowiak start in CF was basically the equivalent of taking a gun and shooting the starting pitcher in the knee that game.

 

You know what would have been great for Anderson's confidence? Having him play against a bunch of those righties where Mack's defense cost us a shot at the game, so that we're either in the pennant chace until the very end or actually in the playoffs. There were enough games where Mack's defense hurt us badly that it would have made a major difference in the standings. Playing in a pennant chase, and the playoffs? Yeah, that always kills a kid's confidence.

Edited October 6, 2006 by Balta1701

[Rowand44]

In an effort to protect Brian he started using Rob in CF more, sacrificing defense to try and provide more pop to a sluggish lineup.

Sluggish lineup? Our hitters were absolutely killing the ball when Ozzie started to platoon the two.

[Balta1701]

And thats the reason alot were upset with the move. When Anderson was pretty much taken out of the lineup, The O had already been on fire, but the pitching wasnt always there. So why take out a guy with great D and possibly hurt the pitchers in the process, just to add a little O that was not needed at the time...

And then when the O did slow down...we kept putting Mackowiak in anyway, despite the fact that he wasn't giving us anything offensively either (hit .250 in August with a .668, and .194/.590 in September). So we were costing our pitchers runs in CF, but without any hope of getting any of them back at the plate.

[The Ginger Kid]

So, when Anderson improved, and Mackowiak got worse, what happened? Ozzie gave Mack more playing time, not less. We had a stretch in August, a key stretch, 7 games against Detroit and the Twins. What happens? Ozzie plays Mack in CF 4 out of the first 6 games, and we wind up being beaten up pretty badly, and at least a couple of those games, Mack's defense gave up key runs. And it just kept happening.

 

Since I've been accused of ignoring stats, let's take a look.

 

The Sox went 16-13 in August.

 

Of the 29 games played in August, Brian started in 21 of those. He did not play at all in only 3 games.

 

In those 13 losses, Brian started in 9 of them, did not play or PH late in 4.

 

In that crucial stretch of 6 vs. Minny and 4 vs. Detroit (10 games), the Sox went 4-6.

 

BA actually started in 3 of the first 6 games.

 

Of the ten games, BA started in 5, and the Sox lost 3 of those. Mack went 4 for 12 when he started, BA went 6 for 17, statistically pretty even.

 

In those first 6 games the Sox went 2-4. We won 2 of the 3 games that Mack started, lost all 3 that Brian started.

 

Of the 8 games that Mack started instead of BA in August, the Sox went 4-4. He hit .269.

 

The best argument for Brian is in the 21 games he started in August in which the Sox won, he hit .357.

 

Laying the blame at the feet of Mack is a fallacy, IMO, particularly when we know that starting pitching and the bullpen killed the season.

[fathom]

Laying the blame at the feet of Mack is a fallacy, IMO, particularly when we know that starting pitching and the bullpen killed the season.

 

Those extra runs and outs that happened due to Mackowiak playing CF didn't help them at all. There were many instances where a misplay by Mackowiak resulted in a blow-up by our starting pitchers. I'm not blaming Mackowiak for the blow-up, but if we had a legit MLB CF on the field, things might have been different.

[Balta1701]

Since I've been accused of ignoring stats, let's take a look.

 

The Sox went 16-13 in August.

 

Of the 29 games played in August, Brian started in 21 of those. He did not play at all in only 3 games.

 

In those 13 losses, Brian started in 9 of them, did not play or PH late in 4.

What you're missing though is that there's a real selection bias in your data here. Specifically, Ozzie constantly gave starts against right handers to Mack and starts against left handers to Anderson. Ignoring the fact that some of those lefties included guys like our friends CC and Santana...our lineup as a whole was significantly worse against left handers than right handers. Thome, Pods, Iguchi were all pretty bad during the year against lefties, then you throw in giving starts to Alomar, Ozuna, etc., and our lineup wound up being shut down pretty constantly against lefties.

 

So yeah, when Anderson played, we did tend to lose. But this was more because we couldn't hit lefties, especially the 2nd half of the season, than it was Anderson not being a better option than Mack against righties.

[beautox]

If we could get some sort of package for him that included Volstad/Petit and a couple others like an Andino and Tankersley you'd have to consider it

I like where your going with this, but the marlins will not deal Tankersley hes their future closer and a former #1 draft round pick, i just don't see that happening with tank.

 

You really shouldn't even bother debating it with people anymore. There will always be the few on here who will bring no real reasoning, logic or stats to their comments and make statements like that. It's not very hard to just make a comment like that, it's incredibly difficult to back up however so you'll likely only see a few posts like that in every thread with no rebuttal to criticizm because they're not interested in backing up their asinine comments.

agreed

[kwolf68]

These Brian Anderson debates are quite comical.

 

Personally, I don't think he's going to be a star hitter. YES, I do believe in time he will be a decent hitter, generally in the mid .200s (.245-.260)....give or take bad and good years.

 

If he plays spectacular defense I am OK with that. However, for much of the first half of the season and then again toward the end of the year (after his little streak) he was as close to an automatic out as we've ever had.

 

That being said, I believe we should commit to him, tell him CF is his job and just go play baseball. Don't platoon him all the time, plan to play him in 140+ games next year...BUT, we must have someone on the roster who can adequately man the CF position should Anderson not be ready to do better than .200 for most of the year.

 

I think he'll be much better next year, but no one in here can guarantee that so we have to have someone somewhere either in AAA or on the major league roster we can use if Brian isn't what some of us think he is. He's a good kid who works his tail off and all accounts and scouting reports suggest he is a prime talent...that is why we need to commit to him, but also do what's best for the team and have a capable replacement.

[Drew]

At the beginning of the season there was talk of batting him eighth in the order with Crede in the 9 slot.

 

I think that if you would have seen that, BA would have had a little more success. And the Mackowiak platoon goes without saying.

[The Ginger Kid]

These Brian Anderson debates are quite comical.

 

Personally, I don't think he's going to be a star hitter. YES, I do believe in time he will be a decent hitter, generally in the mid .200s (.245-.260)....give or take bad and good years.

 

I'm one of the Brian "critics" and I think he'll be an all-star in the next few years. I think he could break out at any time and hit for average with respectable power. His defense speaks for itself and as his arm gets stronger he's going to be a force in CF.

 

The trouble is that some think that Ozzie kept him from achieving that status this year.

[Balta1701]

I'm one of the Brian "critics" and I think he'll be an all-star in the next few years. I think he could break out at any time and hit for average with respectable power. His defense speaks for itself and as his arm gets stronger he's going to be a force in CF.

 

The trouble is that some think that Ozzie kept him from achieving that status this year.

More annoying to me than my opinion that Ozzie hurt Anderson's development this year, particularly in the 2nd half, is that Ozzie cost this team a number of wins at the same time.

[Chisoxfn]

Resident BA mancrush here....

 

I'll agree, you do have to listen to what the Marlins have to offer, but this guy is still our starting CF for the forseeable future. Why else would KW have traded away Jeremy Reed, Chris Young and the llike? Must see something he likes in the kid.

If we traded away Chris Young becuase Kw thought Anderson was better, well than Kenny was stupid. I can imagine the reason it was Young and not Anderson was simply because Anderson was more ready to contribute this season.

 

However, the White Sox and most of the fans here grossly over-estimated Anderon's offensive abilities while a lot of us also grossly underestimated his defensive abilities at the start of the season. The guy was a premiere defensive CF, but he was not a good hitter (even later in the year after making strides, he wasn't near as good as his late season numbers would indicate; although it was nice for him to make strides and there was on reason for him to be benched as often as he was).

 

I should add, if we get good value I'm all for moving Anderson because I think he's far less of a sure thing than a guy like Ryan Sweeney. So if the Sox plan on adding a speedy CF to leadoff, than I'd move Anderson for a package that gives the Sox some serious chips (if that package is out there) and I'd imagine the Marlins could offer up some young players that we'd have interest in.

[redandwhite]

I never understood how so many people on Sox Talk justified his terrible season by saying he played better in the last month or two of the season.

 

Since when does only 25% of the season count?

[Chisoxfn]

I never understood how so many people on Sox Talk justified his terrible season by saying he played better in the last month or two of the season.

 

Since when does only 25% of the season count?

When it comes ot a rookie you look at the progress a player makes. You can throw out a rookie pitchers first few starts and see if he's progressively getting better. Its a sign of progress and growth being made. If we are talking about a veteran than ya, its pointless to throw later stats out, but with young players looking at stats like most Sox fans do about Anderson makes a lot of sense (because he should get better and well he did get better as the season went on).

 

Still his stats over the final couple months make him look better offensively than he really was. I've never thought much of Anderon's swing and I still don't. However, his defense, speed and power potential may still make him valuable. But if a team wanted to give us something worthwhile I'd do it.

[redandwhite]

Do you project Anderson as anything more than a reserve outfielder having seen him perform this season or what?

[Chisoxfn]

Do you project Anderson as anything more than a reserve outfielder having seen him perform this season or what?

I can't consider anyone that is in the top 4 at his position defensively a reserve outfielder (not when you have the speed and power potential of Anderson). In the right system I think you play him regardless. I think the Sox have that but the problem is Ozzie really handled things awfully.

 

Now if we get a good offer and are able to get another CF that fits in at the top of the order, well than thats another story.

 

If Anderson is going to be used as a reserve outfielder, just trade him now because he has more value than that of a reserve outfielder (on the trade market). So basically put, if I'm KW I'd either force Ozzie to use BA or make a move (unless Ozzie tells Kenny that BA will be an integral part of next years team).

 

As far as where BA may fall, if he can do a bit to his swing I could see him being Torri Hunter (defensively and offensively). However, I don't see him getting better than that offensively (and I know some here feel Hunter is an incredibly over-rated offensive player).

 

BA could be far worse than that too, hitting in the low to mid .200's with high strikeout totals.

[CanOfCorn]

I can't consider anyone that is in the top 4 at his position defensively a reserve outfielder (not when you have the speed and power potential of Anderson). In the right system I think you play him regardless. I think the Sox have that but the problem is Ozzie really handled things awfully.

 

Now if we get a good offer and are able to get another CF that fits in at the top of the order, well than thats another story.

 

If Anderson is going to be used as a reserve outfielder, just trade him now because he has more value than that of a reserve outfielder (on the trade market). So basically put, if I'm KW I'd either force Ozzie to use BA or make a move (unless Ozzie tells Kenny that BA will be an integral part of next years team).

 

As far as where BA may fall, if he can do a bit to his swing I could see him being Torri Hunter (defensively and offensively). However, I don't see him getting better than that offensively (and I know some here feel Hunter is an incredibly over-rated offensive player).

 

BA could be far worse than that too, hitting in the low to mid .200's with high strikeout totals.

 

 

For example...Mike Cameron is still around. Good defensively..sometimes a liability offensively, but he keeps getting jobs because he can get to the ball. THAT'S why Anderson is not a reserve outfielder. and you can't judge a player based on one year that he was handled very well. Put him in a situation where he can succeed and build his confidence and he turns into your CF for years to come.

Edited October 9, 2006 by CanOfCorn

[santo=dorf]

QUOTE(Chisoxfn @ Oct 9, 2006 -> 05:36 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

When it comes ot a rookie you look at the progress a player makes. You can throw out a rookie pitchers first few starts and see if he's progressively getting better. Its a sign of progress and growth being made. If we are talking about a veteran than ya, its pointless to throw later stats out, but with young players looking at stats like most Sox fans do about Anderson makes a lot of sense (because he should get better and well he did get better as the season went on).

So how come in the comeback thread you said Frank's stretch numbers counted more?

[Chisoxfn]

So how come in the comeback thread you said Frank's stretch numbers counted more?

Thats talking about an award, not player development.

[redandwhite]

QUOTE(CanOfCorn @ Oct 9, 2006 -> 04:51 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

For example...Mike Cameron is still around. Good defensively..sometimes a liability offensively, but he keeps getting jobs because he can get to the ball. THAT'S why Anderson is not a reserve outfielder. and you can't judge a player based on one year that he was handled very well. Put him in a situation where he can succeed and build his confidence and he turns into your CF for years to come.

 

Mike Cameron has been a pretty solid offensive player through out his career, always gets on-base, always has some pop, always provides some speed. Anderson brought nothing to the table on the offensive side of things, and showed little to prove me that that will change in the future.

 

Of course, players do take time to develop..

[TLAK]

But in the 2nd half...Anderson improved. He finally learned how to swing for line drives, and his average started to climb. He hit above .250 for several months in a row.

 

You are aware, I assume, that Brian hit .188 in September?

[Kalapse]

You are aware, I assume, that Brian hit .188 in September?

Actually he hit .200

[TLAK]

Actually he hit .200

 

Yep, I counted is 0 for 4 against Minny on 10/1.

 

Sorry.

[Kalapse]

Yep, I counted is 0 for 4 against Minny on 10/1.

 

Sorry.

You are forgiven.