Any realistic way to upgrade the starting pitching?

[DBAHO]

Yeah, the Phils will regret the Moyer deal, but not because of the age and money like people think is why it'll end up dumb. They'll regret it when he gives up 30 homers or so the next 2 years and sees his ERA up around 5.

He gave up 33 HR's this season, and only 13 of those were at Safeco in 15 starts.

 

I wouldn't be suprised moving from pitching half his games at Safeco to Citizens Bell, plus being a year older, that number rises to around 40 next season.

 

But it shows how much of a premium and in demand getting starting pitching is.

[whitesoxfan101]

He gave up 33 HR's this season, and only 13 of those were at Safeco in 15 starts.

 

I wouldn't be suprised moving from pitching half his games at Safeco to Citizens Bell, plus being a year older, that number rises to around 40 next season.

 

But it shows how much of a premium and in demand getting starting pitching is.

 

Especially left handed, these GM's would sell their children to cannibals to get even average left handed SP. Thus is why I want us to pick up the option and then trade Buehrle this offseason for the king's ransom he'd still get us, but that's a different debate.

[witesoxfan]

That's not saying much...

 

You're absolutely correct, putting up 4 months with an ERA below 4 just absolutely sucks balls.

[Rowand44]

You're absolutely correct, putting up 4 months with an ERA below 4 just absolutely sucks balls.

For comparison sake, Garland only did that twice. I bring up Jon because once again he had a very average season yet it seems like everyone thinks he was fantastic last season cause he had two really good months. He also had two brutal months and two average months. He was not very good at all last year.

[Kalapse]

We desperately need somebody like Kenny Rogers/Jamie Moyer.

What do you guys have against signing Redman to a cheap deal and see what he can

do as a veteran?

Sometimes it's about more than numbers. He didn't pitch that bad this past year

with woeful (except against the Sox) KC.

Actually it is about numbers, Mark Redman is a horrible starting pitcher and should be nowhere near any AL team next season especially the White Sox.

[knightni]

Buehrle reminds me of Jamie Moyer.

[witesoxfan]

For comparison sake, Garland only did that twice. I bring up Jon because once again he had a very average season yet it seems like everyone thinks he was fantastic last season cause he had two really good months. He also had two brutal months and two average months. He was not very good at all last year.

 

Pretty much agreed completely. Jon was huge from about mid-June to September, but he always mixed in atleast one awful start every month, and occasionally two or three.

 

It's really hard arguing for any White Sox starter this year. They all pretty much sucked ass.

 

I'm definitely excited about this rotation come next year though. No real reason why, just a quiet feeling of confidence I have that this rotation will bounce back something amazing next year. If Contreras stays healthy, he's going to be good(and all we as fans can do is hope)...I gotta hunch Buehrle's going to come back stronger than ever, Garland will be solid again, Vazquez will be comfortable, seeing as how he's not being traded in an offseason since 2002, and then there's McCarthy(who you and I both like a lot).

[Balta1701]

I'm definitely excited about this rotation come next year though. No real reason why, just a quiet feeling of confidence I have that this rotation will bounce back something amazing next year. If Contreras stays healthy, he's going to be good(and all we as fans can do is hope)...I gotta hunch Buehrle's going to come back stronger than ever, Garland will be solid again, Vazquez will be comfortable, seeing as how he's not being traded in an offseason since 2002, and then there's McCarthy(who you and I both like a lot).

Not totally sure who said it, but someone here a few months ago speculated that one of the things with Buehrle and Garland in 06 might have been the fact that they are finally growing up...they're used to being able to take it easy in the offseason, but when they were hit with the 05 workload and a shorter period of rest at the same time as they both got another year older, suddenly they just weren't as ready to get started the next season. Garland then took a while to get the feeling back while Buehrle ran out of gas.

 

I'm sort of hoping that if they do come back (hopefully with a new contract for Buehrle), we'll discover that they decided to turn it up a notch this offseason to overcome the fact that they are getting a little older & can't just rely on pure athleticism.

[Chisoxfn]

I actually have a lot of faith of most of our guys coming back and I wouldn't cringe if we kept our 5 guys. The only reason I'm for moving one of the guys (and only one of them, preferably Contreras or Buehrle) is because of the value I think we could get for them (that could help us fill a couple other wholes while giving us front line talent) and that it opens up a spot for McCarthy who is capable and deserves to be our 5th guy.

 

Aside from that I would not deal Garland/Vaz. Count is so old I wouldn't be against it if we got some top notch stuff in return and well Buerhle could be a tough resign so I don't have a problem with that. As far as Freddy goes, I'd move him if we got value for him or were able to make that Arod trade, although I think he's going to rebound quite nicely.

[Rowand44]

Pretty much agreed completely. Jon was huge from about mid-June to September, but he always mixed in atleast one awful start every month, and occasionally two or three.

 

It's really hard arguing for any White Sox starter this year. They all pretty much sucked ass.

 

I'm definitely excited about this rotation come next year though. No real reason why, just a quiet feeling of confidence I have that this rotation will bounce back something amazing next year. If Contreras stays healthy, he's going to be good(and all we as fans can do is hope)...I gotta hunch Buehrle's going to come back stronger than ever, Garland will be solid again, Vazquez will be comfortable, seeing as how he's not being traded in an offseason since 2002, and then there's McCarthy(who you and I both like a lot).

There still aren't many rotations in baseball that I'd trade ours with going into next season. I'm fairly confident Mark will be back, Jon I'm not so sure about, his 06 season is too much like 01-04 for me to have confidence in him. You know how I feel about Brandon and as much as Vaz pissed me off last year, it did seem like he turned a corner and can at least be a solid starter for us next season. Contreras to me is the most interesting pitcher we have right now, if he's completely healthy I believe he's one of the best pitchers in baseball. On the other hand can you count on a 300 year old pitcher to be completely healthy? And we saw this year how he's a completely different pitcher even when he's a bit banged up. Freddy I just want gone, split finger or not I have absolutely 0 confidence in him.

 

I actually have a lot of faith of most of our guys coming back and I wouldn't cringe if we kept our 5 guys. The only reason I'm for moving one of the guys (and only one of them, preferably Contreras or Buehrle) is because of the value I think we could get for them (that could help us fill a couple other wholes while giving us front line talent) and that it opens up a spot for McCarthy who is capable and deserves to be our 5th guy.

 

Aside from that I would not deal Garland/Vaz. Count is so old I wouldn't be against it if we got some top notch stuff in return and well Buerhle could be a tough resign so I don't have a problem with that. As far as Freddy goes, I'd move him if we got value for him or were able to make that Arod trade, although I think he's going to rebound quite nicely.

I think this is the first baseball related topic we've completely disagreed on.

Edited October 24, 2006 by Rowand44

[Chisoxfn]

There still aren't many rotations in baseball that I'd trade ours with going into next season. I'm fairly confident Mark will be back, Jon I'm not so sure about, his 06 season is too much like 01-04 for me to have confidence in him. You know how I feel about Brandon and as much as Vaz pissed me off last year, it did seem like he turned a corner and can at least be a solid starter for us next season. Contreras to me is the most interesting pitcher we have right now, if he's completely healthy I believe he's one of the best pitchers in baseball. On the other hand can you count on a 300 year old pitcher to be completely healthy? And we saw this year how he's a completely different pitcher even when he's a bit banged up. Freddy I just want gone, split finger or not I have absolutely 0 confidence in him.

I think this is the first baseball related topic we've completely disagreed on.

LOL

 

I'm still kind of stunned. I hate Freddy for a lot of things but I think he more than anyone was absolutely gassed from being lazy in the off-season (not a good excuse I know) and it hurt his velocity. Mix in a potential regain in velocity (even if it is just 2 MPH) with his new found splitter, a much much improved changeup and his already solid curve ball and I think you have the makings of something real real good (if he at least partially regains velocity).

 

The thing I cringe at is the idea of his deliberate, slow delivery that allows the entire world to steal off him at all times. Thats the main reason I'd be willing to move Garcia but only if we get something good in return.

 

I think we get more for Contreras and I got a lot more question-marks when it comes to him (mainly because I have little faith in his health). Still I think as a whole we both agree on the fact that this rotation isn't near as bad as many people say it is. Yes it sucked this year, but players have off years and statistically speaking our guys are better than they produced.

[CanOfCorn]

LOL

 

I'm still kind of stunned. I hate Freddy for a lot of things but I think he more than anyone was absolutely gassed from being lazy in the off-season (not a good excuse I know) and it hurt his velocity. Mix in a potential regain in velocity (even if it is just 2 MPH) with his new found splitter, a much much improved changeup and his already solid curve ball and I think you have the makings of something real real good (if he at least partially regains velocity).

 

The thing I cringe at is the idea of his deliberate, slow delivery that allows the entire world to steal off him at all times. Thats the main reason I'd be willing to move Garcia but only if we get something good in return.

 

I think we get more for Contreras and I got a lot more question-marks when it comes to him (mainly because I have little faith in his health). Still I think as a whole we both agree on the fact that this rotation isn't near as bad as many people say it is. Yes it sucked this year, but players have off years and statistically speaking our guys are better than they produced.

 

 

And we can't trade Buehrle yet...nothing to do with resigning or money, but because he's a lefty. If the Sox trade MB and insert Brandon, that's 5 RHSP. We can't do that. Now, if the Sox trade 2 pitchers and they sign a Ted Lilly, then, maybe.

[Rowand44]

Still I think as a whole we both agree on the fact that this rotation isn't near as bad as many people say it is. Yes it sucked this year, but players have off years and statistically speaking our guys are better than they produced.

Oh ya, that I definitely agree on. The rotation will be better next season, there is no doubt in my mind there, it's just going to be interesting to see who we trade to make a spot for Brandon and what we get back.

[Balta1701]

And we can't trade Buehrle yet...nothing to do with resigning or money, but because he's a lefty. If the Sox trade MB and insert Brandon, that's 5 RHSP. We can't do that. Now, if the Sox trade 2 pitchers and they sign a Ted Lilly, then, maybe.

The White Sox with 5 right handers in its rotation > the White Sox with a lefty for 2007 who walks away because someone offers Buehrle a better deal in the offseason (thus leaving the Sox, you guessed it, 4 righties in their rotation, 5 if Garcia is somehow kept).

 

Buehrle's contract situation should be the overriding thread from which all decisions about the pitching staff are spun.

[Rowand44]

The White Sox with 5 right handers in its rotation > the White Sox with a lefty for 2007 who walks away because someone offers Buehrle a better deal in the offseason (thus leaving the Sox, you guessed it, 4 righties in their rotation, 5 if Garcia is somehow kept).

 

Buehrle's contract situation should be the overriding thread from which all decisions about the pitching staff are spun.

I personally couldn't care less if we have 5 righties, 5 lefites or 5 guys who throw with their feet, as long as they're quality starting pitchers. Like I said before though, Mark is the last starter I want to trade besides Brandon. I think he's the most likely to rebound but obviously his contract has become a huge issue now. I am really interested to see what starter goes in this offseason, cause I honestly think you could make a decent case for all of them(the starting 5 from 06).

[Balta1701]

I personally couldn't care less if we have 5 righties, 5 lefites or 5 guys who throw with their feet, as long as they're quality starting pitchers. Like I said before though, Mark is the last starter I want to trade besides Brandon. I think he's the most likely to rebound but obviously his contract has become a huge issue now. I am really interested to see what starter goes in this offseason, cause I honestly think you could make a decent case for all of them(the starting 5 from 06).

On talent alone, I want to see Buehrle, McCarthy, and Garland in this rotation for the next 5 years or more. But sadly, we can't just evaluate talent alone until we know whether or not it's even possible to keep Buehrle. If it would take a $15 million a year for 5 years deal to get Buehrle to sign right now...which is pretty close to what Oswalt got for example (5 years 73 million) and I wouldn't rule out as being what he could ask for, then at some point you have to get something for Buehrle and that is the end of the story.

[Kalapse]

And we can't trade Buehrle yet...nothing to do with resigning or money, but because he's a lefty. If the Sox trade MB and insert Brandon, that's 5 RHSP. We can't do that. Now, if the Sox trade 2 pitchers and they sign a Ted Lilly, then, maybe.

Once the Cardinals finish off the Tigers in the World Series, St. Louis will have won the series without the benefit of a left handed starter. They were however hampered by a lefty starter earlier in the year (Mulder) but have been a much better team without him. So it is possible to win a World Series title without a lefty in your rotation.

[xxx]

yeah, there is a realistic way. Dump Garcia/Vazquez, insert McCarthy, and hope that if the SP sucks again, Kenny won't hesitate to make a move.

[Chisoxfn]

yeah, there is a realistic way. Dump Garcia/Vazquez, insert McCarthy, and hope that if the SP sucks again, Kenny won't hesitate to make a move.

There is absolutely no reason to dump Vaz, imo.

[Whitewashed in '05]

You're absolutely correct, putting up 4 months with an ERA below 4 just absolutely sucks balls.

We've argued about this before. There's no use in wasting more time.

[Jack Parkman]

My thought is to dump Contreras to a pitching starved team for pitching prospects (and I emphasize pitching) because nobody really knows how old he is and that he has injury concerns. I would also trade Garcia for some prospects, maybe a combination of hitters and pitchers, and sign Mulder to an incentive laden deal or sign Ted Lilly. Watch Buehrle closely during the beginning of the season and by mid-June if he is good lock him up, If a deal can't be done or he sucks, trade him at the deadline.

[SoxFan76]

I'm another one who wouldn't mind if the rotation stayed as it is. The only reason someone should be dealt is to put McCarthy into the rotation and free up some serious money.

 

I have faith that 3-5 SP will rebound and lead us to another WS Championship.