Official 2006-2007 NBA Discussion Thread

[Jordan4life_2007]

Our best scorer, when? He disappeared. He looked okay for about a second today (even broke some ankles late in the 1st half), but why is it taboo to play the guy who's playing better now? I definitely would have liked to see Thabo more, even though he's not (as you point out) the guy who'll make the difference in this series. We don't have that guy. So why not play the better defender?

 

Then who's gonna score, or even be a threat to score? I know Ben struggled in the second half. Just like Luol and Kirk did. We're having enough problems scoring as it is. And what the hell has Thabo done all year? People keep calling for him based off what? The few minutes he played an injured Dwyane Wade well? He's been a bust if you ask me. He was supposed to be the "steal" of the draft and "NBA-ready."

[CWSGuy406]

Then who's gonna score, or even be a threat to score? I know Ben struggled in the second half. Just like Luol and Kirk did. We're having enough problems scoring as it is. And what the hell has Thabo done all year? People keep calling for him based off what? The few minutes he played an injured Dwyane Wade well? He's been a bust if you ask me. He was supposed to be the "steal" of the draft and "NBA-ready."

 

He's been a bust? Haha. He was the Bulls' best defender on D-Wade last series, and did a great job on Rip Hamilton when he was in the game. Thabo is strong enough to get through screens but long and quick enough to stay with guys. He's still a little rough around the edges -- his jump shot isn't great, and at times he's shaky with the ball. When it's all said and done, though, I think Thabo is going to be a very good guard for the Bulls -- I think he'll end up making a bigger impact with the team than Tyrus will.

 

I wasn't calling for Thabo to be in the ballgame with two minutes to play. But until the final 30 seconds when the game was over, Thabo and Tyrus didn't play a f***ing minute (*to clarify, in the second half). Not even when Nocioni was playing like ass, ditto PJ Brown.

Edited May 11, 2007 by CWSGuy406

[GoodAsGould]

I was more dissapointed in Kirk Hinrich than anyone else in this game, guy totally sucked on both ends of the court the 2nd half, he is apposed to be the captain but yet he was possibly the worse guy out there.

[jackie hayes]

Then who's gonna score, or even be a threat to score? I know Ben struggled in the second half. Just like Luol and Kirk did. We're having enough problems scoring as it is. And what the hell has Thabo done all year? People keep calling for him based off what? The few minutes he played an injured Dwyane Wade well? He's been a bust if you ask me. He was supposed to be the "steal" of the draft and "NBA-ready."

Ben is a threat when he's being completely smothered? The Pistons have owned him this series. So if he can't score and Thabo can't score, it'd at least be nice to take away one or two Detroit baskets.

 

As for evaluating him, I'm not asking you. He's underdeveloped, and because of that he didn't play much this year. I don't know where you're getting that "NBA-ready" garbage. Everything I heard after the draft was just the opposite -- that the Bulls drafted him because he has the ability to be a good defender, with good guard size, but given the competition he'd seen, it would be a little while. He's lived up to his billing perfectly.

 

Why call for him? Not because he's a star by a long shot, but because Gordon is providing absolutely nothing this series. So why not try someone else, who might match up well on at least one end of the court?

[Jordan4life_2007]

Ben is a threat when he's being completely smothered? The Pistons have owned him this series. So if he can't score and Thabo can't score, it'd at least be nice to take away one or two Detroit baskets.

 

Ben can be 0/15 and still be a threat to go off at any moment. You still have to respect him. Thabo has no jumper, shady ball-handling, and just overall makes a lot of dumb mistakes. We gave up 81 points last night. We didn't lose the game because of defense.

 

As for evaluating him, I'm not asking you. He's underdeveloped, and because of that he didn't play much this year. I don't know where you're getting that "NBA-ready" garbage. Everything I heard after the draft was just the opposite -- that the Bulls drafted him because he has the ability to be a good defender, with good guard size, but given the competition he'd seen, it would be a little while. He's lived up to his billing perfectly.

 

Did you actually read any of the pre-draft reports? The league he came from is supposed to be better than the NCAA. He was supposed to step right in and contribute. The tall guard the Bulls so desperately needed. I'm not saying the dude is garbage and will never amount to anything. But as far as right now, color me unimpressed.

 

Why call for him? Not because he's a star by a long shot, but because Gordon is providing absolutely nothing this series. So why not try someone else, who might match up well on at least one end of the court?

 

You don't bench your best scorer for a rook with no offensive game. We've scored 69, 87 and 81 points in 3 games. We need Ben out there. Yeah, he's struggled. Just like Hinrich, Deng and every other Bull has struggled? Are they gonna overcome those struggles from the bench? Should we have benched Hirnich for Duhon? Deng for Griffin? It's not as simple as you make it. We're not down 0-3 because of any one particular match up. We're down 0-3 because we're getting our butts handed to us by a much better team.

 

I was more dissapointed in Kirk Hinrich than anyone else in this game, guy totally sucked on both ends of the court the 2nd half, he is apposed to be the captain but yet he was possibly the worse guy out there.

 

Kirk gets a free pass around here. That's quite obvious.

[CWSGuy406]

We need Ben out there. Yeah, he's struggled. Just like Hinrich, Deng and every other Bull has struggled? Are they gonna overcome those struggles from the bench? Should we have benched Hirnich for Duhon? Deng for Griffin? It's not as simple as you make it.

 

Nice, too bad these situations aren't at all similar. When Ben Gordon is not scoring, he's a below average basketball player. He's a TOTAL liability on the defensive end of the floor. I'll admit to not watching the Bulls as much as many of you guys here -- but it's not just Gordon's height that make him a liability on that end. You'd think that, at the very least, he'd be able to keep guys in front of him. He can't even do that. I was amazed seeing Hamilton and Billups just dribble right around Ben. Hinrich, Deng... those situations aren't AT ALL comparable, seeing that those guys bring it to the defensive end.

 

That being said...

 

-I think you took my initial point to an extreme. I didn't want to see Thabo out there for the whole second half. My question is this -- why weren't they used AT ALL? It seemed to go totally against Skiles' first half strategy, where the Tyrus was the first sub of the game, and Thabo got significant minuts. This from Matt at Blog-a-Bull, the best Bulls site on the internet:

 

In comparison to the roster, I don't think the coach is as much of the problem, but for tonight Skiles wasn't part of the solution either. After getting contributions from Tyrus and Thabo in the first half, they were completely benched in the second. Thankfully our man Duh got a DNP tonight, but even with the starters in the game for most of the second half Skiles bizarrely didn't make any substitutions until the lead was slipping away, and only then it was Nocioni (And if this series hasn't proved the need for Noc to go, I don't know what does) who came in after Tyrus was the first big off the bench in the first half. In a series where you're out-manned it takes some risks to try and get an edge, and I think everybody was willing to accept the risk of playing rookies whereas Skiles was hoping just to stick with his guys until the bitter end. It was a play-not-to-lose strategy that can't be used in a game that was firmly in control. They had to make it a blowout in the third so the Pistons would pack it in for the night. Once they were let back into the game it was already lost, because they simply use their possessions better.

 

-Second, agreed on Hinrich. How many wide open shots did he have that he missed? Yikes, at least most of Gordon's misses are with guys a half a foot taller than him standing right in his face.

 

Obviously something needs to change. We need a big man who can play with his back to the basket and a bigger guard. Hopefully that's Thabo but I think he'd be better served as being the first guard off the bench.

[Jordan4life_2007]

Nice, too bad these situations aren't at all similar. When Ben Gordon is not scoring, he's a below average basketball player. He's a TOTAL liability on the defensive end of the floor. I'll admit to not watching the Bulls as much as many of you guys here -- but it's not just Gordon's height that make him a liability on that end. You'd think that, at the very least, he'd be able to keep guys in front of him. He can't even do that. I was amazed seeing Hamilton and Billups just dribble right around Ben. Hinrich, Deng... those situations aren't AT ALL comparable, seeing that those guys bring it to the defensive end.

 

Hey, I'd be all for sitting Gordon for a while if we weren't so offensively-challenged. With Nocioni a complete non-factor, we've got 3 guys capable of scoring. Hinrich has passed up so many open shots it's pathetic. Deng has been at best "OK". Gordon has struggled. After that, we've got a bunch of defensive-minded, hard-nosed guys that have little-to-no offensive game. That's something Paxson must address. Everybody knows we need a low-post scorer. But another playmaker on the perimiter that can shoot would be nice, too. And I watch quite a few Bulls games and I can say that Ben is not as bad a defender as he's looked in this series. Detroit has the best backcourt in all the NBA. It's not like they don't do this to everybody.

 

That being said...

 

-I think you took my initial point to an extreme. I didn't want to see Thabo out there for the whole second half. My question is this -- why weren't they used AT ALL? It seemed to go totally against Skiles' first half strategy, where the Tyrus was the first sub of the game, and Thabo got significant minuts. This from Matt at Blog-a-Bull, the best Bulls site on the internet:

-Second, agreed on Hinrich. How many wide open shots did he have that he missed? Yikes, at least most of Gordon's misses are with guys a half a foot taller than him standing right in his face.

 

Obviously something needs to change. We need a big man who can play with his back to the basket and a bigger guard. Hopefully that's Thabo but I think he'd be better served as being the first guard off the bench.

 

I see where you're coming from here. I just don't think there's much we can do. Detroit is just better. Anyway, let's just hope and pray the pick from the Knicks is good. More like first or second.

[GoodAsGould]

Im hoping we can still make a series out of it, win these next 2, put some pressure on.

[jackie hayes]

Ben can be 0/15 and still be a threat to go off at any moment. You still have to respect him. Thabo has no jumper, shady ball-handling, and just overall makes a lot of dumb mistakes. We gave up 81 points last night. We didn't lose the game because of defense.

 

If Ben were just cold, fine. But he's not even getting looks, he's not shaking anyone. He makes dumb passes on the offensive end, and how many times does he need to get trapped in the corner this series before he learns to avoid it? At best, he's been a nonfactor on offense. Not because of luck, but because the Pistons figured out how to completely shut him down. And he's a huge liability on defense, no matter who he's guarding.

 

I'm not saying Sefolosha would have won this game, I never have. But if judiciously used, I think he could have made it a few points closer. And as decisively as the Bulls have been losing, I'd like to see some change to the strategy. The Pistons seem to have this one pretty well in hand.

 

Did you actually read any of the pre-draft reports? The league he came from is supposed to be better than the NCAA. He was supposed to step right in and contribute. The tall guard the Bulls so desperately needed. I'm not saying the dude is garbage and will never amount to anything. But as far as right now, color me unimpressed.

 

Yes, I did. So whatever source you quoted as saying he's "NBA-ready" (the closest I can find is someone saying he has an "NBA-ready body") meant only that he'll contribute? Well, fine, if that's all it takes, then I'd say he's NBA-ready. He can contribute in a rotation as a good defensive player. He's worth a roster-spot. But nowhere did I see any suggestion that he was well-rounded, or that his shooting was good. My impression after the draft was that he was a defensive-minded 2 who didn't have much of an offensive game and wouldn't be starting anytime soon. I haven't been surprised one whit this season.

[Kyyle23]

Did you actually read any of the pre-draft reports? The league he came from is supposed to be better than the NCAA. He was supposed to step right in and contribute. The tall guard the Bulls so desperately needed. I'm not saying the dude is garbage and will never amount to anything. But as far as right now, color me unimpressed.

 

Draft Express

http://www.draftexpress.com/viewprofile.php?p=280

Sefolosha generally has an outstanding feel for the game. He is very intelligent moving off the ball, extremely poised for a player his age competing at such a high level of competition, and doesn’t rush or force anything out on the floor. He’s your consummate role player, not having a problem being just another cog in his team’s ball-movement. He is clearly the most talented player on his team, but because of his youth and the fact that the three Americans that start around him are shoot first one-on-one type players, he’s only the 4th or 5th option offensively. He’s a willing role player, and is happy to do everything for his team on the court.

 

In terms of shooting, Sefolosha has European 3-point range, but mostly with his feet set. This year he’s started to show more in terms of shooting off the dribble, but he’s still not consistent enough in this area. This is the part of the game that has shown the most improvement over the last year or two, going from a player with no range whatsoever to a 43.3% shooter (at the time of this report in mid-April) in the Italian league, albeit on only 2.6 attempts per game.

There are many things you can say about Sefolosha, but one thing he isn’t is a star. Everything about his game tells you he’s a role player, which is not necessarily a bad thing, but there will likely be players with more star potential on the board when teams start considering drafting him.

 

Most of that starts with his offense, which has always been considerably behind his defense and is only recently beginning to catch up. His 3-point shot is his biggest weakness at the moment, mainly due to his poor mechanics; particularly his slow release and the lack of lift he gets on his jumper. His range could also stand to improve. He is a decent shooter with his feet set, but loses accuracy when shooting off the dribble, which is an important skill for an NBA shooting guard to have. His in-between game in general needs a lot of polish to become NBA caliber.

 

Very much related to this is the fact that while he is a good slasher at the European level, his ball-handling will have to improve a bit to maintain this in the NBA, as his first step is not quite as explosive as most NBA shooting guards. He’s a fine all-around athlete, but is nowhere near the caliber of most elite NBA SG’s, being more similar to a Rip Hamilton or Brandon Roy in this area. He looks a bit out of control at times driving to the basket in traffic, and could clearly stand to add a consistent pull-up jumper to help him avoid these types of situations.

 

Sometimes you get the feeling with Sefolosha that he’s being too unselfish at times, being too quiet for long stretches, deferring too much to teammates and not showing quite everything he has on the offensive end.

 

ESPN

http://myespn.go.com/profile/truehoop?arch...13&start=31

 

A few weeks ago, Chad Ford wrote this about Thabo Sefolosha:

 

He shot the ball very well from mid-range all the way out to the NBA 3-point line. He was a little streaky at times with the long ball, but that's to be expected considering he started shooting from that far away only two days ago.

 

He's a very smooth player with an excellent handle and good court vision. He flies up and down the floor, uses his feet well and can really defend.

 

"I think the kid has the potential to be a Boris Diaw-type player down the road," one NBA international scout told me. "He's really got all the tools. He's not a huge scorer, but all the little things he does don't show up on the boxscore."

 

In a TrueHoop MP3, Jonathan Givony of Draft Express says the only thing keeping Sefolosha from being a very high pick is the fact that he grew up in Switzerland, where there isn't an established pipeline of elite basketball development. He has been underexposed.

 

In another TrueHoop MP3, David Thorpe talks about a player with the potential to be a difference maker.

 

http://www.sportznutz.com/nba/nba_roundup/index.htm

Thabo Sefolosha, Switzerland, SG, 6-6, 213: Known as a good wing player with versatility.

 

http://basketballdraftcentral.blogspot.com...mock-as-of.html

Thabo Sefolosha SG ,Switzerland- Plays in a tough league, may be a good fit for a late first round team who can wait on his development here or overseas. Overall good prospect as his size allows him to play SG/SF and can handle the PG position is small doses. Although defensively solid in Europe, lack of strength may hurt him in the NBA against more physical players. Low yearly buyout option ($500,000) makes him an attractive international prospect.

 

http://nbadraft.rivals.com/content.asp?CID=557325

 

Sefolosha, a 6-5 guard from Switzerland, averaged 12.0 points and 6.4 rebounds for Italian Serie A club Angelico Biella last season, while Carney ranked second in Conference USA in scoring at 17.2 points per game.

 

''He's very long,'' coach Scott Skiles said. ''He's versatile. He's got big hands. ... He's a guy who can play behind Kirk (Hinrich) and Ben (Gordon) and give us size. He can also do some ball-handling.''

 

 

I see alot about potential, but I dont see much about ability to step in right away and contribute besides backing up Gordon and Hinrich. Most draft reports have him as a solid pick who is going to need some work, which is exactly what he is. I think you need to step back and realize how how he has progressed, how long he has been playing basketball, and how high his ceiling really is.

 

Sefolosha grew up with Vevey Riviera Basket in Switzerland. In 2002, at age 17, he quietly began to put up fine numbers in this fairly anonymous league as the starting point guard, leading the league in steals that year. From there he moved to French team Chalon at age 18, only playing in 4 games in his rookie year in France, spending more time with the Espoirs (junior) team than the seniors but still seeing spot minutes with the senior team as well in both the ULEB Cup and Pro A France. He also received his first call to the Swiss senior national team this year. At age 19 he cracked Chalon’s rotation in his 2nd year in France, playing in 30 games and averaging 4 points, 3.5 rebounds and one assist per game.

 

 

The guy is a rookie and guarding some of the best players in the league in the 2nd round of the playoffs, and being commended for his defense.

 

 

Calling him a bust is pretty narrow minded

[whitesoxfan101]

To call Thabo a bust is completely ridiculous. He showed more promise than Tyrus did in terms of being an all around player when he got a chance this year. I personally think they'll both be good players, although we may regret passing on Brandon Roy.

[RockRaines]

I love Scott Skiles, but this loss was all on him. He didnt sub at all in the 2nd half, which just so happens to be the half we lost the ballgame. Thabo and TT should have at least seen the floor sometime in the 4th quarter.

[Jordan4life_2007]

If Ben were just cold, fine. But he's not even getting looks, he's not shaking anyone. He makes dumb passes on the offensive end, and how many times does he need to get trapped in the corner this series before he learns to avoid it? At best, he's been a nonfactor on offense. Not because of luck, but because the Pistons figured out how to completely shut him down. And he's a huge liability on defense, no matter who he's guarding.

 

Gordon is the main focus of their defense. They know he's the most dangerous weapon we have. He's the only guy on this team capable of going for 40+, and the Pistons know that. Ben is still playing bad. But what about Luol? It's OK that in 3 games he's shot 7/16, 4/12, 8/22? It's OK that he's gotten his ass kicked by Prince the last couple games? What about the golden boy? How many open jumpers has he either missed or passed up? I could've swore that was Billups dickin' him in the second half. I'm not even trying to make excuses for Ben. But I recognize why it's hard to bench him, even when he's playing bad.

 

I'm not saying Sefolosha would have won this game, I never have. But if judiciously used, I think he could have made it a few points closer. And as decisively as the Bulls have been losing, I'd like to see some change to the strategy. The Pistons seem to have this one pretty well in hand.

Yes, I did. So whatever source you quoted as saying he's "NBA-ready" (the closest I can find is someone saying he has an "NBA-ready body") meant only that he'll contribute? Well, fine, if that's all it takes, then I'd say he's NBA-ready. He can contribute in a rotation as a good defensive player. He's worth a roster-spot. But nowhere did I see any suggestion that he was well-rounded, or that his shooting was good. My impression after the draft was that he was a defensive-minded 2 who didn't have much of an offensive game and wouldn't be starting anytime soon. I haven't been surprised one whit this season.

 

I do not have time to find the exact draft reports I read. But yes, they claimed that he could contribute immediately and that he was more ready for the NBA because he had played pro ball. Either way, he hasn't been that impressive this year.

 

To call Thabo a bust is completely ridiculous. He showed more promise than Tyrus did in terms of being an all around player when he got a chance this year. I personally think they'll both be good players, although we may regret passing on Brandon Roy.

 

I meant that he's been a bust for this year. I expected more from him.

[CWSGuy406]

I do not have time to find the exact draft reports I read. But yes, they claimed that he could contribute immediately and that he was more ready for the NBA because he had played pro ball. Either way, he hasn't been that impressive this year.

 

Haha, that's funny. Look up about three posts, and find me where it says he was ready to contribute immediately, that he could step in and play right away. Kyyle posted five or six different scouting reports, and not ONE says he's ready to step in from day one and contribute. You're just flat out wrong there...

 

I expected more from him.

 

It's not anybody's fault but your own that your expectations were unreasonable. I'm not saying that Sefolosha played perfectly this year - far, far from it -- but it's ridiculous and ignorant to call this past season from him a "bust".

[Kyyle23]

I meant that he's been a bust for this year. I expected more from him.

 

I just dont understand this. Not at all. Thabo has been a great surprise for me, I didnt expect him to be taking nearly as many minutes this year as he has. What did you expect from him? What draft report did you read?

[jackie hayes]

Anyway, from Sam Smith's article in the Trib:

"I don't know if they panicked," Billups said. "But I did see them get a little less aggressive, pump-faking instead of just taking it up like in the first half."

A good summary. I couldn't figure out why they all looked so timid in the 2nd. Maybe just a bit of, 'Oh crap, it's happening again.'

[Brian]

Golden State defending their house. Gets pretty loud in there. Show more Alba, please!

[whitesoxfan101]

I'm not sure it's even possible to win a game at that place right now. What a madhouse, another blowout W for Golden State in Oakland.

 

Late game edit note: Baron with the dunk of the postseason so far on Kirilenko. OMG.

Edited May 12, 2007 by whitesoxfan101

[WhiteSoxfan1986]

Does anybody else agree with me that the NBA needs to re-seed the playoffs after the first round like the NHL does? It sucks having possibly the two best teams left (Spurs-Suns) play in the second round.

[whitesoxfan101]

Does anybody else agree with me that the NBA needs to re-seed the playoffs after the first round like the NHL does? It sucks having possibly the two best teams left (Spurs-Suns) play in the second round.

 

Oh without question I agree. It works out for the fans this year because I think both west series will be 6 or 7 game classics, and in the east the finals should be really good as the 2 best teams by far will play in the Cavs and Pistons. But they need to re-seed, for sure.

[CWSGuy406]

Pretty embarrassing to hear the Chicago crowd chant "Detroit sucks" in a series that the Bulls will be lucky to take two games in...

[WHarris1]

Pretty embarrassing to hear the Chicago crowd chant "Detroit sucks" in a series that the Bulls will be lucky to take two games in...

Every crowd at a Bulls game is an embarrassment.

 

OMG MOTHER f***ING DONUT RACE

 

 

*5 minutes left in game 3 Bulls down 5* OMG THERE ARE f***ING T SHIRTS FALLING FROM THE CEILING!!!!!!!

[WHarris1]

This is just cruel. Bulls lose this game and all you can do is laugh...and punch someone.

[SleepyWhiteSox]

Every crowd at a Bulls game is an embarrassment.

 

OMG MOTHER f***ING DONUT RACE

*5 minutes left in game 3 Bulls down 5* OMG THERE ARE f***ING T SHIRTS FALLING FROM THE CEILING!!!!!!!

 

An embarrasment would be a half-empty stadium. I don't fault the crowds since we've been practically tops in attendance for so many years now, including some very atrocious years. I haven't had much interest to spend my money and see the team live for a couple of years now, so kudos to those who do.

 

Anyways, I haven't been able to watch the game much after the half...did gordon and nocioni decide to show up today or same ol'?

[WHarris1]

An embarrasment would be a half-empty stadium. I don't fault the crowds since we've been practically tops in attendance for so many years now, including some very atrocious years. I haven't had much interest to spend my money and see the team live for a couple of years now, so kudos to those who do.

It's a joke, anyone that really gets emotional and cares about the game is in the small minority.

 

But as you said, can't get too upset when the stadium is full. It is just really annoying when people are more concerned with stupid timeout entertainment than the actual game.