Official 2006-2007 NBA Discussion Thread

[RockRaines]

The thing is, I don't know if that's a luxury the Bulls have.

 

Having a look at the draft, at the moment the Bulls would have the 11th pick. Oden, Durant and Noah are all definitely going top 5, while the likes of Hasheem Thabeet and Yi Jianlian are slated to go top 10.

 

The only big on the board really round there could be Aaron Gray and I don't think the Bulls should go down that route.

 

And if the Bulls go on the trade market, are they going to be able to trade for a big as good as Gasol in the off-season? Gasol is a bonafide top 5 C in the NBA, and players like that don't come along very often, because you build around them.

 

The Bulls could trade Deng in a deal for Gasol, and then draft a Marcus Williams, Thaddeus Young or Al Thornton to replace Deng.

I disagree, I think Deng is a better player and will be a better player than all those players you listed to draft. I also think at this point he is more valuable than Gasol. Gasol is only scoring 2 points more a game than Deng, and Deng IMO plays better defense and is extremely good at guarding the other teams best scorer. Also he is only 21 years old, which is the same age that alot of players are coming out of college, and he is already scoring 17 points a game in the NBA. There is no good reason to trade him at this point.

 

Also I do not see Gasol as a top 5 C in the league, I think the trade talks have built him up more than he should be. He will give you 18 and 8 every game, is that really worth trading possible future superstars? I do not believe so.

[Chisoxfn]

I disagree, I think Deng is a better player and will be a better player than all those players you listed to draft. I also think at this point he is more valuable than Gasol. Gasol is only scoring 2 points more a game than Deng, and Deng IMO plays better defense and is extremely good at guarding the other teams best scorer. Also he is only 21 years old, which is the same age that alot of players are coming out of college, and he is already scoring 17 points a game in the NBA. There is no good reason to trade him at this point.

 

Also I do not see Gasol as a top 5 C in the league, I think the trade talks have built him up more than he should be. He will give you 18 and 8 every game, is that really worth trading possible future superstars? I do not believe so.

I agree, you don't trade Deng. You find a way to work out a deal involving Nocioni, Tyrus Thomas, PJ Brown (and possibly Chris Duhon as well as a future number 1....as long as the team can find another guard somewhere else, maybe even someone we sign off the street thats a vet).

[hammerhead johnson]

I disagree, I think Deng is a better player and will be a better player than all those players you listed to draft. I also think at this point he is more valuable than Gasol. Gasol is only scoring 2 points more a game than Deng, and Deng IMO plays better defense and is extremely good at guarding the other teams best scorer. Also he is only 21 years old, which is the same age that alot of players are coming out of college, and he is already scoring 17 points a game in the NBA. There is no good reason to trade him at this point.

 

Also I do not see Gasol as a top 5 C in the league, I think the trade talks have built him up more than he should be. He will give you 18 and 8 every game, is that really worth trading possible future superstars? I do not believe so.

 

Heh, been trying to stay away from the basketball talk for a while, but just a few things...

 

1) Deng is NOT extremely good at guarding anybody. He simply does not have the foot speed to keep up with true scoring SFs, and he gets pushed around an awful lot because dude is built like Gumby. I'm not expecting people to be experts when it comes to judging defensive talent, but come on. Deng has the wingspan to make it hard for people to put up shots over him, and he can certainly defend the passing lanes, but he ain't gonna stop penetration, and he certainly can't hang with dudes that want to body him up.

 

But it's funny, because Ben Gordon is so ungodly awful that he makes Deng look like a superior defender. I know that Bulls fans still ain't seeing it....

 

2) Gasol is a top 5 scoring C in this league WITHOUT QUESTION. The guy could score 22 to 25 per game in the right system. Have you ever watched him play? I mean, have you ever really watched him?

 

He's not getting paid 15 million to take it easy. Overall, he's been a bust this year.

 

Jordan, this is some BS, man.

 

Wallace has been incredible this year as far as I can tell. I know that I'm not getting the same games as everyone else.

 

He is a Top 10 defender in the history of this game, but the minute he puts on a Bulls uniform, he's a bust?

 

What's amazing is that people here can be so incredibly on-point when it comes to baseball, but the minute they try to talk basketball, it's just a bunch of crap. See the Tyson Chandler discussions. See the blind Ben Gordon love. It's so incredibly non-heterosexual (sorry Rex).

[Balta1701]

Hammerhead, you and I have been watching some totally different games this year.

[Jimbo's Drinker]

In my opinion is say rest Wallace till the playoffs, let TT develop and watch the 2 destroy the eastern conference before getting swept by fill in the blank out of the west.

[SleepyWhiteSox]

Hammerhead, you and I have been watching some totally different games this year.

 

I'm convinced he watches basketball while high. <_>

[RockRaines]

Heh, been trying to stay away from the basketball talk for a while, but just a few things...

 

1) Deng is NOT extremely good at guarding anybody. He simply does not have the foot speed to keep up with true scoring SFs, and he gets pushed around an awful lot because dude is built like Gumby. I'm not expecting people to be experts when it comes to judging defensive talent, but come on. Deng has the wingspan to make it hard for people to put up shots over him, and he can certainly defend the passing lanes, but he ain't gonna stop penetration, and he certainly can't hang with dudes that want to body him up.

 

But it's funny, because Ben Gordon is so ungodly awful that he makes Deng look like a superior defender. I know that Bulls fans still ain't seeing it....

 

2) Gasol is a top 5 scoring C in this league WITHOUT QUESTION. The guy could score 22 to 25 per game in the right system. Have you ever watched him play? I mean, have you ever really watched him?

Jordan, this is some BS, man.

 

Wallace has been incredible this year as far as I can tell. I know that I'm not getting the same games as everyone else.

 

He is a Top 10 defender in the history of this game, but the minute he puts on a Bulls uniform, he's a bust?

 

What's amazing is that people here can be so incredibly on-point when it comes to baseball, but the minute they try to talk basketball, it's just a bunch of crap. See the Tyson Chandler discussions. See the blind Ben Gordon love. It's so incredibly non-heterosexual (sorry Rex).

Jesus, I knew you had to drop a Chandler line sometime in this thread.

 

Deng is 21 years old, he still has plenty of time to fill out to be able to body up with the bigger SF's. As far as the perimeter, we use him to guard the likes of Kobe etc, and he is the only player we have that can do that with the size that we need. He is head and shoulders a better defender than Gordon, thats not even funny.

 

Gasol and Deng's numbers are so similar im not sure if the bulls would take a step back bringing in Gasol. From watching the guy, i do not think he would improve this team to the point where we mortgage a future star like Deng, its a ridiculously short-sighted trade idea, and is nonsense.

[GoodAsGould]

lol, i miss those hammerhead posts

[DBAHO]

Gasol and Deng's numbers are so similar im not sure if the bulls would take a step back bringing in Gasol. From watching the guy, i do not think he would improve this team to the point where we mortgage a future star like Deng, its a ridiculously short-sighted trade idea, and is nonsense.

They're totally different players though.

 

Gasol gives you that inside scorer that the Bulls desperately need, while Deng is more of a slasher.

 

I totally disagree that Gasol isn't a top 5 center (from your earlier post) in the league though. Look at his competition;

 

Yao Ming - Best in the NBA. So that's 1.

Shaq - Chronically injured. So I'd rather Gasol.

Brad Miller - Doesn't get enough rebounds, and has been injured lately.

Wallace - Doesn't give you much on the offensive end.

Dwight Howard - I'd rather Dwight. So that's 2.

Eddy Curry - Close, because he's come on this season, but doesn't give you much else besides points. So I'll take Gasol.

 

The guy you draft at #11 obviously isn't going to have the same potential as Deng, but he should be a pretty good starting SF in time nonetheless.

 

And considering the likes of Gasol aren't made available very often, that's why I think the Bulls should bite the bullet and go for it.

[Chisoxfn]

They're totally different players though.

 

Gasol gives you that inside scorer that the Bulls desperately need, while Deng is more of a slasher.

 

I totally disagree that Gasol isn't a top 5 center (from your earlier post) in the league though. Look at his competition;

 

Yao Ming - Best in the NBA. So that's 1.

Shaq - Chronically injured. So I'd rather Gasol.

Brad Miller - Doesn't get enough rebounds, and has been injured lately.

Wallace - Doesn't give you much on the offensive end.

Dwight Howard - I'd rather Dwight. So that's 2.

Eddy Curry - Close, because he's come on this season, but doesn't give you much else besides points. So I'll take Gasol.

 

The guy you draft at #11 obviously isn't going to have the same potential as Deng, but he should be a pretty good starting SF in time nonetheless.

 

And considering the likes of Gasol aren't made available very often, that's why I think the Bulls should bite the bullet and go for it.

Well I think you have to consider Gasol both a 4 and a 5 so you also need to compare him to guys like Duncan, Garnett, Amare, Elton Brand, Carlos Boozer, Rasheed, Zach Randolph, etc. Albeit I think Gasol is better than Randolph (because Randolph isn't a true big in the sense that he prefers to shoot jumpers as opposed to play with his back to the basket).

[RockRaines]

They're totally different players though.

 

Gasol gives you that inside scorer that the Bulls desperately need, while Deng is more of a slasher.

 

I totally disagree that Gasol isn't a top 5 center (from your earlier post) in the league though. Look at his competition;

 

Yao Ming - Best in the NBA. So that's 1.

Shaq - Chronically injured. So I'd rather Gasol.

Brad Miller - Doesn't get enough rebounds, and has been injured lately.

Wallace - Doesn't give you much on the offensive end.

Dwight Howard - I'd rather Dwight. So that's 2.

Eddy Curry - Close, because he's come on this season, but doesn't give you much else besides points. So I'll take Gasol.

 

The guy you draft at #11 obviously isn't going to have the same potential as Deng, but he should be a pretty good starting SF in time nonetheless.

 

And considering the likes of Gasol aren't made available very often, that's why I think the Bulls should bite the bullet and go for it.

Guys like Deng arent available very often either. I dont see Gasol as being the difference maker for the Bulls. He doesnt rebound as well as he should and plays the perimeter a bit much like a forward would. What the Bulls need to turn the corner is a true big man who plays the post and rebounds, and has the ability to take on bigger centers like Shaq and Howard. And we arent going to see eye to eye on the top 5 thing. There are more than 5 better C/f than Gasol IMO.

 

Camby

Ming

Okur

Shaq

Duncan

Stoudemire

J Oneal

Boozer

Howard

Okafor

Garnett

 

I might even take Curry instead of Gasol.

[illinilaw08]

I wouldn't go so far as to take Curry, but I agree that I just don't see the Gasol move for the Bulls. Honestly, in my mind, if the Bulls make a move, it needs to be the move that puts them over the top in the East. Gasol is a scorer, but isn't a great defender. Unless Garnett is available, I don't want the Bulls to make a move just for the hell of making a move.

[Balta1701]

I wouldn't go so far as to take Curry, but I agree that I just don't see the Gasol move for the Bulls. Honestly, in my mind, if the Bulls make a move, it needs to be the move that puts them over the top in the East. Gasol is a scorer, but isn't a great defender. Unless Garnett is available, I don't want the Bulls to make a move just for the hell of making a move.

But, the "Just for the hell of making a move" issue...right now the Bulls have a large expiring Contract in the form of PJ Brown. $8 million or so. That is an asset that the Bulls simply will not have in the next few years, barring something really big involving this team. Furthermore, the Bulls have a draft pick of unknown position in the Greg Oden draft, and I would argue that right now, an unknown potential lottery pick has more value than the same pick at a known position unless it winds up being outside the top 2 (stockpiling lottery balls). In other words, right now, the Bulls have 2 major tradeable assets that they simply will not have a year from now and may not have again for a long time. There is some good reason to make a move just to make a move.

[illinilaw08]

But, the "Just for the hell of making a move" issue...right now the Bulls have a large expiring Contract in the form of PJ Brown. $8 million or so. That is an asset that the Bulls simply will not have in the next few years, barring something really big involving this team. Furthermore, the Bulls have a draft pick of unknown position in the Greg Oden draft, and I would argue that right now, an unknown potential lottery pick has more value than the same pick at a known position unless it winds up being outside the top 2 (stockpiling lottery balls). In other words, right now, the Bulls have 2 major tradeable assets that they simply will not have a year from now and may not have again for a long time. There is some good reason to make a move just to make a move.

 

Right, so make a move involving PJ Brown or the Knicks pick, but I don't see Gasol coming over without adding some more chips. I should have clarified and said don't move Gordon or Deng just for the sake of making a move.

[DBAHO]

Guys like Deng arent available very often either. I dont see Gasol as being the difference maker for the Bulls. He doesnt rebound as well as he should and plays the perimeter a bit much like a forward would. What the Bulls need to turn the corner is a true big man who plays the post and rebounds, and has the ability to take on bigger centers like Shaq and Howard. And we arent going to see eye to eye on the top 5 thing. There are more than 5 better C/f than Gasol IMO.

 

Camby

Ming

Okur

Shaq

Duncan

Stoudemire

J Oneal

Boozer

Howard

Okafor

Garnett

 

I might even take Curry instead of Gasol.

And the problem is how many of those guys are available in the NBA?

 

On your list, it all comes down to whether or not you consider guys like Garnett and Boozer 4 and 5's, even though I consider them purely 4's. I would still take Gasol over Camby (strength and injury factor), and maybe Okur (more of an outside shooter for a big man) and certainly Shaq. The rest are all pretty close.

 

And yes players like Deng don't come available everyday either. But a player like Luol Deng isn'ta franchise player, he isn't a guy who you build your team around.

 

When I'm building a team, I start from the inside out, and I think Gasol is argubly a franchise center to build around.

 

Personally I think Bulls fans overrating Deng and Gordon a little and undervaluing Gasol a little, but I can understand why you'd want to keep those 2 young players are part of the nucleus long - term. It's all a matter of opinion anyways.

[RockRaines]

And the problem is how many of those guys are available in the NBA?

 

On your list, it all comes down to whether or not you consider guys like Garnett and Boozer 4 and 5's, even though I consider them purely 4's. I would still take Gasol over Camby (strength and injury factor), and maybe Okur (more of an outside shooter for a big man) and certainly Shaq. The rest are all pretty close.

 

And yes players like Deng don't come available everyday either. But a player like Luol Deng isn'ta franchise player, he isn't a guy who you build your team around.

 

When I'm building a team, I start from the inside out, and I think Gasol is argubly a franchise center to build around.

 

Personally I think Bulls fans overrating Deng and Gordon a little and undervaluing Gasol a little, but I can understand why you'd want to keep those 2 young players are part of the nucleus long - term. It's all a matter of opinion anyways.

Agreed, we just have two different ideas of what the team needs. Bulls fans saw 6 title won with basically just serviceable big guys and dynamic guards and forwards, so its somewhat a skewed opinion of how to build a team.

 

I view Deng as being the best player on the team moving forward and I just couldnt bring myself to trade him, thats all.

[whitesoxfan101]

Heh, been trying to stay away from the basketball talk for a while, but just a few things...

 

1) Deng is NOT extremely good at guarding anybody. He simply does not have the foot speed to keep up with true scoring SFs, and he gets pushed around an awful lot because dude is built like Gumby. I'm not expecting people to be experts when it comes to judging defensive talent, but come on. Deng has the wingspan to make it hard for people to put up shots over him, and he can certainly defend the passing lanes, but he ain't gonna stop penetration, and he certainly can't hang with dudes that want to body him up.

 

But it's funny, because Ben Gordon is so ungodly awful that he makes Deng look like a superior defender. I know that Bulls fans still ain't seeing it....

 

2) Gasol is a top 5 scoring C in this league WITHOUT QUESTION. The guy could score 22 to 25 per game in the right system. Have you ever watched him play? I mean, have you ever really watched him?

Jordan, this is some BS, man.

 

Wallace has been incredible this year as far as I can tell. I know that I'm not getting the same games as everyone else.

 

He is a Top 10 defender in the history of this game, but the minute he puts on a Bulls uniform, he's a bust?

 

What's amazing is that people here can be so incredibly on-point when it comes to baseball, but the minute they try to talk basketball, it's just a bunch of crap. See the Tyson Chandler discussions. See the blind Ben Gordon love. It's so incredibly non-heterosexual (sorry Rex).

 

Ahh I missed you Hammer. Some points:

 

1. Your 100 percent right on Deng, but a SF that can score 20 and grab 6 or 7 rebounds a game at age 21 is a valuable commodity.

 

2. Your also right about Ben Gordon's defense, but he's been a lot more consistent on offense this year and is actually getting others involved. I'd still trade him for something nice, but i'm a lot more reluctant, especially with the way Hinrich has shot (awful) this year.

 

3. I like Gasol quite a bit when healthy, but Memphis wants 2 young guys AND the pick for him. There is no way in HELL I'd do that. None.

 

4. Wallace has been amazing, in the 27 to 30 games of 43 he's shown up. There is no doubt when he asserts himself he's still a dominant force, but there have been about a dozen games where he simply did not care, and that is just maddening since he came in with the whole "blue collar, play balls to the wall all the time" reputation. Maybe it's his age though, I think he's gonna be HUGE in the playoffs, and to call the whole deal a bust is nuts.

 

5. Tyson Chandler is still wasting his talents. He's 7'1 with about a 8 foot wingspan and major hops, which is why he gets so many blocks and rebounds, but he still can't catch, he still can't shoot, he still can't score, he still isn't a very good on ball defender (if YOU watch the games, you know his blocks are almost all cherry pickers when the guard gets beat off the dribble...which is his job, but still, his defense on HIS man is average). With that siad, 12 rebounds and 2 or 3 blocks a game will get on on the all defensive team a lot.

[GoodAsGould]

Yeah, Gasol is tall enough for a C, but When I watch the Grizzlies he looks more like a PF to me, and even though he is taller than Wallace id assume he would be a PF for us too. And, if you compare him to the PF's in this league he isn't in that elite group. He is a damn good player I'm not doubting that, but he isn't worth what the asking price is.

[knightni]

If I'm selling the farm for a big guy, I'd rather have Garnett.

[shipps]

Aren't the Bulls in the drivers seat with the Gasol trade talks?From my understanding the grizz want to get rid of him,he wants to be traded.That should make trade talks a little easier for Paxon,right?I dont think we have to give up as much that has been reported.

[DBAHO]

Aren't the Bulls in the drivers seat with the Gasol trade talks?From my understanding the grizz want to get rid of him,he wants to be traded.That should make trade talks a little easier for Paxon,right?I dont think we have to give up as much that has been reported.

Absolutely not, for these reasons.

 

1 - Memphis DOESN'T have to trade Gasol. Pau hasn't officially requested a trade yet, or at least pubicly, and no-one knows what Jerry West is going to do.

 

2 - There would be interest from almost every team in Gasol if he was available. So that means the Bulls are going to make a good deal if they want to get him.

 

FWIW, Hoopsworld had this little blurb;

 

Pau Gasol to Boston?

 

One league executive told me this weekend he believes Gasol will be moved before the deadline. Not exactly breaking news. However, what was interesting about his comments is he indicated people in Memphis have told him the team desperately wants to cut salary due to all of the money they're currently losing. As a result, the same source said the Grizzlies want young players who are not due a ton of money, draft picks and expiring contracts in return.

 

The source went on to say he believes Gasol will land in Boston in a package that includes Al Jefferson and Theo Ratliff. While Ratliff's contract is not expiring per se, the source indicated Ratliff probably won't play again because of injury and that insurance would cover much of the money he is owed over the course of this season and next, making the deal one the Grizzlies would strongly consider.

 

All "Bull" in Chicago?

 

There have been rumors floating around that the Bulls would consider moving Luol Deng and/or Ben Gordon. An NBA GM who spoke with Bulls' GM John Paxson last week said don't be so quick to buy into that. The source said Paxson loves Deng and doesn't want to move him. The source also indicated Paxson would like to keep Gordon as well but would reluctantly part with him if the right deal surfaced.

 

As for the talk of the Bulls landing Gasol, the same NBA GM said the chances of that happening aren't as high as some have speculated. In essence, trading for Gasol would put the Bulls in a position where they would have pushed all their chips to the center of the table and the organization isn't convinced Gasol makes them a viable championship contender, ultimately making them hesitant to the pull the trigger on such a deal.

[DBAHO]

How does Thomas, Brown and the 1st pick or Gordon sound?

 

OVER the weekend, I heard Portland was offered Pau Gasol ($12.3 million) for LaMarcus Aldridge ($4M), Sergio Rodriguez ($760G) and Jamaal Magloire's expiring ($8.433M) contract. Without doubt, Gasol and Zach Randolph would be a daunting duo to defend, but they'd also be a serious threat to give up as much as they put up.

 

I certainly believe Grizzlies president Jerry West, as any upstanding NBA executive would do in his position, is bobbing for options just in case the Bulls disprove the notion in these here parts they're the most plausible Pau partner.

 

An exam of various teams able, if not ready and willing, (it's unknown whether the Trail Blazers are receptive, or even if a counteroffer was solicited) to give West what he insists on for Gasol is a short, semi-mouthwatering list.

 

The Hawks should offer two of their young flock - Josh Smith, Marvin Williams, Josh Childress, Sheldon Williams - for Gasol. Anybody, that is, exempting Joe Johnson. Logically, by erasing him from the equation, Atlanta can't hope to satisfy the Grizzlies' demand for an established compulsive scoring guard.

 

The Celtics feature Paul Pierce. Yet Danny Ainge's idea is to team up the franchise player with Gasol, not exchange one for the other. West wouldn't want Pierce anyway; too old and makes too much. His plan is to shave $10M off Memphis' cap next season to $34M. Neither Boston nor Atlanta holds a worthwhile expiring contract. What's more, both losing assemblies are just what Gasol is trying to get away from.

 

Everyone else should be available, even Al Jefferson, despite how much he's been cashing in on the backboard and scoreboard. Still, he's not the confirmed, low-mileage guard or forward Memphis is targeting.

 

The Bulls, as I might've mentioned recently in this space, have the prerequisite enticement to snare Gasol. While I have no reason to think VP John Paxson will modify his steadfast opposition to swap Luol Deng and Ben Gordon (along with P.J. Brown's expiring $8.56M contract) for the answer to his team's offensive paint prayers, there sure seems to be plenty of negotiating room.

 

That's because the Bulls and their decision makers (I assume chairman Jerry Reinsdorf has some say in momentous personnel matters) own other desirable, exchangeable pieces, namely Andres Nocioni, Kirk Hinrich, Tyrus Thomas and Thabo Sefolosha.

 

I suspect (strictly educated speculation) Memphis may be amenable to accepting one of the above players in place of Gordon or Deng. At the same time, I'm convinced a Gasol (plus Hakim Warrick) deal cannot happen unless one of those two (in addition to a first-rounder in the '08 or '09 draft, not this June) is included.

 

"Jerry definitely thinks he can get what he wants from Chicago," underlines an innocent executive (how that's for a capricious concept?) familiar with prothe ceedings.

[GoodAsGould]

Wow he would look good in Portland with Randolph. Not 2 mention when healthy Roy has shown he is a force already. And with the lack of really good scoring C's I wouldn't be worried about the defense at all

[knightni]

How does Thomas, Brown and the 1st pick or Gordon sound?

 

 

Duhon, Thomas, Brown, Kryhapa and the Knicks pick.

 

Sounds close to me.

[Jimbo's Drinker]

Wallace

Gasol

Deng

Hinrich

Gordon

 

thats a helluva team, if possible.