The Official Ichirotalk.com thread

[astralpanda]

It's a bet. Again, nothing against him but I think with the quality of our pitchers and his inexperience, I think he will be at the end of the rotation.

 

(that's odd, I haven't logged in in 4 months and my account got deleted)

 

I agree about McCarthy being at the end of the rotation. The guy's upside is based on one dynamite spring training and a good second half of 2005. Forget about stuff, there's been tons of pitchers in the past with fantastic stuff that didn't make it. I hope he does do good for the sake of the team, but I just don't see it.

 

As far as Ichiro. I love the guy. That's my biggest fantasy deal when I think about guys the Sox could get to improve. But as I go through potential deals in my mind, I just don't think we can get get him unless we give up a whole hell of a lot. He'd have to be pushing hard to get out of Seatle and the M's would have to want to sell. It's not gonna happen, he's their Franchise player, just like a Pujols or a Jeter.

[kapkomet]

This is probably something that should be posted in another thread, but I just was thinking because of the way someone else said something else in this thread....

 

Did anyone ever stop and think that maybe, just maybe, they let McCarthy rot on purpose this year? The reason I say that is because they know he's going to he that good and wanted to keep him on the cheap for one more year... because that way when his current contract is up, he won't get as much simply because he hasn't put up any numbers, save next year?

 

Do you all see what I'm trying to say? I'm not saying it very well.

[santo=dorf]

QUOTE(kapkomet @ Oct 19, 2006 -> 10:51 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

This is probably something that should be posted in another thread, but I just was thinking because of the way someone else said something else in this thread....

 

Did anyone ever stop and think that maybe, just maybe, they let McCarthy rot on purpose this year? The reason I say that is because they know he's going to he that good and wanted to keep him on the cheap for one more year... because that way when his current contract is up, he won't get as much simply because he hasn't put up any numbers, save next year?

 

Do you all see what I'm trying to say? I'm not saying it very well.

....and to think, you always rip apart IggyD before reading any of his posts.

 

 

So why did ownership raise the payroll?

Edited October 20, 2006 by santo=dorf

[jackie hayes]

This is probably something that should be posted in another thread, but I just was thinking because of the way someone else said something else in this thread....

 

Did anyone ever stop and think that maybe, just maybe, they let McCarthy rot on purpose this year? The reason I say that is because they know he's going to he that good and wanted to keep him on the cheap for one more year... because that way when his current contract is up, he won't get as much simply because he hasn't put up any numbers, save next year?

 

Do you all see what I'm trying to say? I'm not saying it very well.

No, it wouldn't escalate enough to play around like this. Plus, this season was obviously a priority -- if they thought that he'd be great, they'd have played him this year. It was just the depth. Plus, they prolly figured, well, it worked with MB.

[astralpanda]

Did anyone ever stop and think that maybe, just maybe, they let McCarthy rot on purpose this year? The reason I say that is because they know he's going to he that good and wanted to keep him on the cheap for one more year... because that way when his current contract is up, he won't get as much simply because he hasn't put up any numbers, save next year?

 

Do you all see what I'm trying to say? I'm not saying it very well.

 

It's a nice, interesting conspiracy. But I think it just had to do with the money they were paying the other 5 starters. No matter how much we begged for it they never put him in the rotation cause our starters were making 7-10 mil each. That's my opinion anyway.

[knightni]

Sooo... KW sandbagged the team over future $$ this year with BMAC so the Sox would lose out on the playoffs?

[witesoxfan]

The only untouchables on this roster right now is Mac and Jenks. I need to put this line in my sig or something, "but with the amount of money Brandon will be making the new three years, he is invaluable to this franchise."

 

I don't even consider Jenks untouchable. I love Jenks, he has dynamite stuff and will be closing for the next 5-10 years(based on health of course), but plain and simple, he's a reliever. On the trade market, I'd value him like a starter, so if someone wants to pay for a reliever as if he's a starter(aka Krivskyism), and the offer is right, you must make it.

 

In the same regard, McCarthy is probably a #3-4, but due to his cost, you must treat him like Johan...if someone wants to overpay that badly, they can have him. He CANNOT be apart of any package, barring a twist in the roster where a young, cheap pitcher is brought into the organization through trade(such as Anthony Reyes), and even then, I'm trading any of the other starters over him unless it is completely unavoidable.

[kapkomet]

It's a nice, interesting conspiracy. But I think it just had to do with the money they were paying the other 5 starters. No matter how much we begged for it they never put him in the rotation cause our starters were making 7-10 mil each. That's my opinion anyway.

 

 

Sooo... KW sandbagged the team over future $$ this year with BMAC so the Sox would lose out on the playoffs?

Yea, you all are right. But if you think about it, if BMac has a good year this year, his future value is not as high as it would have been and he won 15 games in 2006. We all do have to remember that I don't think KW thought we would sign JG AND JC, he really thought one of them would bolt.

[CWSOX45]

I'm sorry, but how could any of you guys be against acquiring Ichiro? The guy could make this team extremely dangerous. If it means giving up McCarthy so be it.

[Balta1701]

Yea, you all are right. But if you think about it, if BMac has a good year this year, his future value is not as high as it would have been and he won 15 games in 2006. We all do have to remember that I don't think KW thought we would sign JG AND JC, he really thought one of them would bolt.

What most players do in their 2nd season in the big league overall tends to have very little effect on what th eir long-term contracts actually look like. If BMac comes out and wins 15 games in 2007 and 20 in 2008, no one on earth will remember that he only pitched out of the bullpen in 2006. The only thing that would have made a difference is if BMac had come out and had a 20 strikeout game.

[VAfan]

All the talk about Ichiro is misguided IMO.

 

First, Seattle is not trading him. He puts fans in the seats. Seattle is owned by a Japanese businessman. It's not happening, period.

 

Second, why spend $12.5 million a year on Ichiro AND trade away valuable prospects to make it happen?? If the Sox want a prominent lead-off hitter who can play LF, then bid for Alfonso Soriano. He may end up costing even more than $12.5 million/year, but he won't cost any prospects, and he'll hit 40 more HRs.

 

To take on either Ichiro's or Soriano's contract will probably require us to move one of our big-5 starters, but why not get something else in return for such a trade?

[Chisoxfn]

Is there any serious talk of us getting Ichiro?

I love that guy.

He's being wasted in Seattle.

How bout Brandon and Fields for Ichiro?

I mean this is Ichiro??

While Ichiro is one of my favorite players to watch in the majors, I just see the acquisition price being a net negative (we'd give up more than we'd get in return) and therefor I see no logical way for us to get Ichiro and become a better team (unless of course we plan going to a Yankee like payroll).

[RockRaines]

All the talk about Ichiro is misguided IMO.

 

First, Seattle is not trading him. He puts fans in the seats. Seattle is owned by a Japanese businessman. It's not happening, period.

 

Second, why spend $12.5 million a year on Ichiro AND trade away valuable prospects to make it happen?? If the Sox want a prominent lead-off hitter who can play LF, then bid for Alfonso Soriano. He may end up costing even more than $12.5 million/year, but he won't cost any prospects, and he'll hit 40 more HRs.

 

To take on either Ichiro's or Soriano's contract will probably require us to move one of our big-5 starters, but why not get something else in return for such a trade?

Ichiro is better than Soriano for what we need IMO. Soriano isnt quite the lead off hitter nor the fielder than Ichiro is. Also Soriano DID put up those monster numbers in the NL, which is a bit suspect.

[Kalapse]

I'm sorry, but how could any of you guys be against acquiring Ichiro? The guy could make this team extremely dangerous. If it means giving up McCarthy so be it.

It's not just going to cost you McCarthy, you'll have to include more in the package. Adding Ichiro's very large salary and subtracting Brandon's non-existent salary could put the Sox in a position where they won't have any flexibility financially this offseason which is something they're going to need if they want to upgrade the team elsewhere. Plus you would be sacrificing a whole lot of youth (23 year old McCarthy) and making this team a whole lot older for a possible one year rental in Ichiro seeing how his contract is up at the end of next season. (if McCarthy is moved then the same starting 5 from last year would likely be brought back, making the Sox future incredibly old and expensive.)

[CWSOX45]

It's not just going to cost you McCarthy, you'll have to include more in the package. Adding Ichiro's very large salary and subtracting Brandon's non-existent salary could put the Sox in a position where they won't have any flexibility financially this offseason which is something they're going to need if they want to upgrade the team elsewhere. Plus you would be sacrificing a whole lot of youth (23 year old McCarthy) and making this team a whole lot older for a possible one year rental in Ichiro seeing how his contract is up at the end of next season. (if McCarthy is moved then the same starting 5 from last year would likely be brought back, making the Sox future incredibly old and expensive.)

 

Kalapse, I'm well aware that the Mariners are not just going to accept taking McCarthy. Obviously we're going to have to part ways with another prospect, and possibly end up trading Freddy back to Seattle.

 

If we are going to acquire Ichiro, obviously we're going to have to make other deals to free up cash, and to get younger.

 

All I know is that I refuse to watch Scott Podsednik patrol the outfield and lead-off for another season. Kenny has to make a move.

[ptatc]

It's not just going to cost you McCarthy, you'll have to include more in the package. Adding Ichiro's very large salary and subtracting Brandon's non-existent salary could put the Sox in a position where they won't have any flexibility financially this offseason which is something they're going to need if they want to upgrade the team elsewhere. Plus you would be sacrificing a whole lot of youth (23 year old McCarthy) and making this team a whole lot older for a possible one year rental in Ichiro seeing how his contract is up at the end of next season. (if McCarthy is moved then the same starting 5 from last year would likely be brought back, making the Sox future incredibly old and expensive.)

 

Expensive, yes. Old???? MB and JG are 28, FG and JV are 31 and JC is 95. 4 out 5 are ih their prime I wouldn't consider that incredibly old. However, I do agree with your overall point. We need McCarthy mostly for financial flexibility.

[DBAHO]

All the talk about Ichiro is misguided IMO.

 

First, Seattle is not trading him. He puts fans in the seats. Seattle is owned by a Japanese businessman. It's not happening, period.

 

Second, why spend $12.5 million a year on Ichiro AND trade away valuable prospects to make it happen?? If the Sox want a prominent lead-off hitter who can play LF, then bid for Alfonso Soriano. He may end up costing even more than $12.5 million/year, but he won't cost any prospects, and he'll hit 40 more HRs.

 

To take on either Ichiro's or Soriano's contract will probably require us to move one of our big-5 starters, but why not get something else in return for such a trade?

I wouldn't say it's a given Soriano hits 40HR's for whoever he plays for next season.

 

He screams out Adrian Beltre v2.0 all over again IMHO, so I'd be wary for whoever gets him that they don't put unrealistic expectations on him.

[Whitewashed in '05]

I wouldn't say it's a given Soriano hits 40HR's for whoever he plays for next season.

 

He screams out Adrian Beltre v2.0 all over again IMHO, so I'd be wary for whoever gets him that they don't put unrealistic expectations on him.

Maybe not to Beltre's extreme, but I see your point. He will get paid like Beltre though.

[Balta1701]

Maybe not to Beltre's extreme, but I see your point. He will get paid like Beltre though.

With the amount of money teams seem to have available and the desire for a guy with speed and power, he's going to get paid a lot more than Beltre.

[Kalapse]

With the amount of money teams seem to have available and the desire for a guy with speed and power, he's going to get paid a lot more than Beltre.

Most definitely. Beltre got about 5 years $13M per, Soriano has a much more proven offensive track record, of course he's nowhere near the defensive player that Beltre is but defense doesn't bring in the big bucks like offense does. Another contract to keep in mind is Carlos Beltran's 7 year $17M per contract he picked up from the Mets, Beltran is a speed/power type player like Soriano but is a far superior defensive player.

 

So if I had to take a guess as to what kind of contract Soriano will be looking at this offseason I'd say somewhere in the 5-6 year, $15M-$16M per range.

[Chisoxfn]

I wouldn't say it's a given Soriano hits 40HR's for whoever he plays for next season.

 

He screams out Adrian Beltre v2.0 all over again IMHO, so I'd be wary for whoever gets him that they don't put unrealistic expectations on him.

Huh. Soriano has been hitting hr's and stealing bases and being a damn good hitter since he joined the majors. Yes he strikes out more than you'd like and defensively at 2nd he wasn't that great, but out in left there is nothing wrong with him.

 

There is absolutely no way to compare these two guys. Soriano has been doing this for a long time and went for a number of years as being one of the most underrated offensive players in the game because people slammed him for not being able to walk (big freaking whoop, the guy hits for avg, power and steals bases).

[Balta1701]

Yeah, Bowden sure looks like he ought to lose his job. I said on July 31 that if Soriano couldn't be resigned, Bowden ought to be fired...its absolute insanity for a team in a medium-market to leave itself in a position where it has to spend like $17 million a year on a guy just to make sure they don't lose him for nothing.

[santo=dorf]

What's up with Bowden's DUI? I remember reading that he was going to be fired if he was convicted of it.

 

To be fair to Bowden, he shouldn't have traded Soriano because he thought there wasn't going to be compensation. The last the time the Sox operated under that thought, they ended up with Jon Adkins.

 

He should've traded Soriano because there were a lot of teams showing interest and the Nats weren't in it. I think there had to be some good offers, but Bowden was probably looking for more than enough.

Edited October 22, 2006 by santo=dorf

[santo=dorf]

Perhaps Bowden felt the Nats had a shot to re-sign him, and if they couldn't, they would at least get a couple of picks for their efforts.

 

I do remember articles talking about how much Soriano enjoyed playing there.