Mets looking to deal Milledge/Heilman?

[fathom]

I think everyone who is a fan of the whitesox would have preferred to win the WS last year over being "competitive" for the next few years. Young would have spent the season in AAA which really isnt much of a value to a team that is a favorite to win it all. Vaz was easily our 2nd best pitcher all of this year, so im not sure that Haeger could have given us that much of an effort. Vaz only had 2 months with an ERA over 4.00, which is pretty damn good. I think he figured out alot about how to pitch in this league this year, and I expect a pretty decent year out of him this upcoming season. Hindsight is great and all, but the most valuable piece to the 2006 whitesox team was Vaz, much more than a player who would have spent the whole year in AAA.

 

Vazquez was a bad pitcher last year. Even his stats are misleading, as he always found a way to ruin any momentum this team had. Just because some of our pitchers sucked, it doesn't mean he was "our 2nd best starter". It's too bad we didn't keep Young, and let him play in CF after Anderson's brutal first 75-100 at-bats.

[witesoxfan]

Yes, going forward for the next few years, it would have been nice to have a couple of AAA options, and a season with BMAC starting. But for 2006, the best plan was to do what we did. It didnt work out, but you cant honestly say that you werent pretty happy about replacing Viz, who we all hated in the pen and basically was worthless by the end of 2005, and Duque who had no business pitching in the AL at all this year, and was likely to get hurt anyway. From these two pieces we didnt really want, and a promising but unproven prospect we received a pitcher who has the ability to be an ACE Sp for our drive to repeat. Before the season started, it looked like a GREAT deal.

 

Vizcaino became more valuable because of his second half with his 2.60 ERA, 1.27 WHIP in 27.2 IP. Ozzie got smart and realized that Viz got shelled after he had already been out there, and thus he limited the number of innings he was in. He had a rocky September, putting up a 1.77 WHIP, but he didn't allow the runs to score, and the guys behind him didn't either.

 

I also am not entirely sure if Duque would have gotten hurt coming out of relief. It seemed to be the number of innings he put on his arm is what hurt him the most, and that would have limited the innings he put on it.

 

Also I recall several people questioning the move the second it was made, especially with McCarthy already in the fold and Duque in the pen as a swingman.

[RockRaines]

Vizcaino became more valuable because of his second half with his 2.60 ERA, 1.27 WHIP in 27.2 IP. Ozzie got smart and realized that Viz got shelled after he had already been out there, and thus he limited the number of innings he was in. He had a rocky September, putting up a 1.77 WHIP, but he didn't allow the runs to score, and the guys behind him didn't either.

 

I also am not entirely sure if Duque would have gotten hurt coming out of relief. It seemed to be the number of innings he put on his arm is what hurt him the most, and that would have limited the innings he put on it.

 

Also I recall several people questioning the move the second it was made, especially with McCarthy already in the fold and Duque in the pen as a swingman.

Viz lost innings because he wasnt as effective and Ozzie only used him sparingly because of how bad he was when he was outt there in pressure situations. Gas-can Vizcaino needed to go and we all knew that.

[witesoxfan]

Viz lost innings because he wasnt as effective and Ozzie only used him sparingly because of how bad he was when he was outt there in pressure situations.

 

Pitches 1-15 = 2.60 ERA, 1.36 WHIP

Pitches 16-30 = 4.15 ERA, 1.48 WHIP

 

When he pitched multiple innings and threw quite a few pitches, he was mediocre. When he came in fresh and threw 1 inning at a time - or less than that - he was quite solid.

 

Gas-can Vizcaino needed to go and we all knew that.

 

You "knew" that. I personally saw value in a middle reliever who could eat innings, and many others did too.

[santo=dorf]

QUOTE(RockRaines @ Nov 7, 2006 -> 09:53 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Viz lost innings because he wasnt as effective and Ozzie only used him sparingly because of how bad he was when he was outt there in pressure situations. Gas-can Vizcaino needed to go and we all knew that.

Wrong.

 

Hermanson, Politte, and Cotts pitching out of their minds and the eventual call up of Jenks kept Ozzie from using Vizcaino. Despite how bad he was, Marte received more opportunities from Guillen because he threw lefthanded.

Edited November 8, 2006 by santo=dorf

[RockRaines]

Everyone sees so clearly now. I wonder where the thread is when KW made the trade for Vaz.........

[RockRaines]

http://www.soxtalk.com/forums/index.php?sh...c=44311&hl=

Thanks, I think everyone can read that thread for themselves, but I dont see too many people up in arms about losing Viz, Duque or even Young. Of course Flash was up in arms that we didnt trade Garland instead of Duque and Viz.... Interesting read on the different perspectives coming off a championship trying to repeat, and now where everyone wants to second guess what happened this season.

 

BTW SS2K5 with somewhat of an accurate position.

 

ust a few thoughts here after reading all 59 pages...

 

#1 Vazquez+Cooper=Contreras. There is something they see in Vazquez they think they can fix. They obvious told Ozzie to feel the kid out and check out his mental state. Obviously Ozzie likes what he said, because he is a White Sox now.

 

#2 I get the feeling one of the starters has some kind of an injury, and I get the feeling it is Garcia. I have no real evidence, just Kenny worrynig about Garcia being tired, and then aquiring another starter.

 

#3 Maybe a little bit of thinking outside the box might be necesary here... If Jenks fails as a closer, remember that the Sox originally were looking at aquiring Contreras to be a closer. That would slide Bmac into the rotation to be the #5, and no bullpen arm is needed.

 

#4 I love Kenny Williams. Not only is he looking at 2006, he is looking at 2007 and 2008 and what inflation has done to the pitching market. He is buying the guys in rookie ball and A ball two years to get ready for the majors instead of forcing them quicker than they need to go. He just dealt a starting pitcher we didn't want, the last reliever out of our pen, and a prospect in a position where we feel we have two other major league ready players at for a top of the rotation starter... AND got Arizona to pick up some contract. KW for Exec of the year 2006.

 

it also turns out that I was against the trade initially.

[Chisoxfn]

I did call the contract that Garland would take in that thread. Man I'm good, lol.

[Rowand44]

To you. Which is all that mattered to you before the season started.

 

I prefer a team that stays competitive over the long haul. That's not to say the Sox won't be competitive without Young, but they'd be in a much better position going forward, and there's no denying that.

 

I believe that a combination of McCarthy + El Duque (with Haeger potentially in the mix) could have given us what Vazquez gave the 2006 White Sox. You apparently don't feel the same way.

You're looking at this short sighted bud. It's actually very possible by trading for Vazquez we made ourselves better for the future as well. We'll see what happens with Vaz but at least it looks like he turned some type of corner, hopefully he can be an above average starter next season. But that's not really what I'm talking about when I say that trade could have made us better for the future. There is a pretty decent possibility I'd say that we could get a better package for one of our starters right now than what the DBacks got for Vaz. Obviously we dont know yet what Kenny is going to get back in return but if we could land a package like Milledge and Pelfrey/Humber(not saying we're going to get that but there is a decent shot we can get a package like that) then all the sudden we've landed two elite prospects while giving up one for Vaz. By adding this depth to the rotation, Kenny has made this team better for the present and the future.

[beck72]

You're looking at this short sighted bud. It's actually very possible by trading for Vazquez we made ourselves better for the future as well. We'll see what happens with Vaz but at least it looks like he turned some type of corner, hopefully he can be an above average starter next season. But that's not really what I'm talking about when I say that trade could have made us better for the future. There is a pretty decent possibility I'd say that we could get a better package for one of our starters right now than what the DBacks got for Vaz. Obviously we dont know yet what Kenny is going to get back in return but if we could land a package like Milledge and Pelfrey/Humber(not saying we're going to get that but there is a decent shot we can get a package like that) then all the sudden we've landed two elite prospects while giving up one for Vaz. By adding this depth to the rotation, Kenny has made this team better for the present and the future.

Good point. While getting two elite guys like Milledge and Pelfrey is a little far fetched, the sox should be able to trade Freddy for a return at least equal to what it took to get Vaz.

 

Whether it's adding a bullpen arm for 2007, or getting prospects, they should be of value to that of Young and Vizcaino. In this climate for SP, even us armchair GM's could get that kind of return for Freddy.

 

If VAz, at worst, continues eating innings for the sox in 07 and 08, along with the talent the sox will get trading Freddy, that should be equal to Young, Viz, El Duque and Freddy. But if Vaz posts a sub 4.00 ERA for the next two yrs, the sox should get the far better end of the deal.

[Rowand44]

If we're trading Vaz, Pelfrey has to be involved, end of story.

[jackie hayes]

So if we got Heilman one of our targets would be Heilman? I suppose that's meant to be cute, but somehow it's not.

[Jordan4life_2007]

If we're trading Vaz, Pelfrey has to be involved, end of story.

 

Agreed

 

Sidenote: Vaz would dominate in the NL. Nobody can tell me different. I know he had a so-so year in 2005. But the NL is much worse now. Ask Jeff Weaver.

[Rowand44]

Agreed

 

Sidenote: Vaz would dominate in the NL. Nobody can tell me different. I know he had a so-so year in 2005. But the NL is much worse now. Ask Jeff Weaver.

Honestly, I dont know. I usually am huge on the al/nl switch but with Vaz I honestly just think he needs to find the right place, al or nl. If he ever becomes comfortable while on the mound then he'll be a very good pitcher imo, if he keeps being hard on himself, well then he's going to keep hanging curves and he'll get hard in whichever league he is in. JMO.

[Rowand44]

I actually could see McCarthy getting moved, but we would be getting pitching prospects back from another deal. I can only imagine the blowup on Soxtalk if Mac was dealt.(I would probably be part of it.)

I'd be a mean person if that happened.

[Jordan4life_2007]

What if Pelfrey was now in the Sox system, and Mac was dealt for Crawford?

 

Nobody could b**** about that.

[Rowand44]

What if Pelfrey was now in the Sox system, and Mac was dealt for Crawford?

I still wouldn't be a happy person. It'd ease the pain a bit if we got Pelfrey and I do love Carl but to me being able to pair Pelfrey and Brandon in the rotation for years to come would just be absolutely huge for this organization. You know how I feel about Brandon and to me trading him is just an absolute mistake at the moment even if we added a Mike Pelfrey type. I want as much good young pitching on this team as possible, not trading it for a position player, even one as good as Crawford.

[Jordan4life_2007]

I still wouldn't be a happy person. It'd ease the pain a bit if we got Pelfrey and I do love Carl but to me being able to pair Pelfrey and Brandon in the rotation for years to come would just be absolutely huge for this organization. You know how I feel about Brandon and to me trading him is just an absolute mistake at the moment even if we added a Mike Pelfrey type. I want as much good young pitching on this team as possible, not trading it for a position player, even one as good as Crawford.

 

Rowand, my friend, Carl frickin' Crawford! I like B-Mac, too. But if Kenny was able to pull off what Tony proposed, I'd s*** my pants.

[Flash Tizzle]

What if Pelfrey was now in the Sox system, and Mac was dealt for Crawford?

It would be much easier to accept McCarthy's departure if Pelfrey were acquired. I'd go as far to say it's one of the few reasons I'd ever consider dealing Brandon.

 

If you were to create an equation of LF +SP, it's obvious McCarthy + Podsednik/Sweeney/FA is

 

Personally, I'd rather have both McCarthy and Pelfrey available. Those two atop the rotation would be beneficial in a few years when we may need to acquire a starter from the FA market. Let's say VAzquez is traded for Pelfrey. It makes practical sense to hold onto him and McCarthy because if any starter is injured a starter is available from within. An additional benefit is between GArcia/Buehrle, if Williams is intent on signing Buehrle longtime he could possibly trade Garcia midseason. Get something of value for him. It's fricken perfect

Edited November 14, 2006 by Flash Tizzle

[southsideirish71]

Rowand, my friend, Carl frickin' Crawford! I like B-Mac, too. But if Kenny was able to pull off what Tony proposed, I'd s*** my pants.

 

 

How many years have we had rediculus offense, and then we trotted the likes of Felix Diaz, and company out there. I would rather stock up on pitching, and just go easy on the bat in LF. Everyone looks at Carl and drools, but we all need to remember what happens to players when they come here. I dont care how they hit before, the minute the come into the homerdome they forget everything they have learned, and just lift and pull. Carl will become power Carl, and we will see less and less of his speed. You will just have another power guy in a lineup of powerguys.

 

Bmac and Pelfrey with our current offense > Pelfry and current offense + Carl.

 

Hell we might as well just kept Mags, Carlos Lee, and just stayed the good ol softball team we have been for years.

[Rowand44]

How many years have we had rediculus offense, and then we trotted the likes of Felix Diaz, and company out there. I would rather stock up on pitching, and just go easy on the bat in LF. Everyone looks at Carl and drools, but we all need to remember what happens to players when they come here. I dont care how they hit before, the minute the come into the homerdome they forget everything they have learned, and just lift and pull. Carl will become power Carl, and we will see less and less of his speed. You will just have another power guy in a lineup of powerguys.

 

Bmac and Pelfrey with our current offense > Pelfry and current offense + Carl.

 

Hell we might as well just kept Mags, Carlos Lee, and just stayed the good ol softball team we have been for years.

Well to be fair, Crawford is a different type of player and I believe that's the reason every wants him. He's a young player with ridiculous potential and is a solid leadoff hitter already. I agree with your main point though, to have two guys like Pelfrey and Mac in the rotation starting in 08 is just invaluable to a franchise.

Edited November 14, 2006 by Rowand44

[Jordan4life_2007]

How many years have we had rediculus offense, and then we trotted the likes of Felix Diaz, and company out there. I would rather stock up on pitching, and just go easy on the bat in LF. Everyone looks at Carl and drools, but we all need to remember what happens to players when they come here. I dont care how they hit before, the minute the come into the homerdome they forget everything they have learned, and just lift and pull. Carl will become power Carl, and we will see less and less of his speed. You will just have another power guy in a lineup of powerguys.

 

Bmac and Pelfrey with our current offense > Pelfry and current offense + Carl.

 

Hell we might as well just kept Mags, Carlos Lee, and just stayed the good ol softball team we have been for years.

 

Man, CC is one of the best all-around players in the game. The dude can do everything. I don't buy for a second he would become this "life and pull" guy if he came here. I feel you about the pitching. I'll just say I won't lose any sleep over losing B-Mac if we landed Pelfrey. That's just me, though.

[southsideirish71]

Well to be fair, Crawford is a different type of player and I believe that's the reason every wants him. He's a young player with ridiculous potential and is a solid leadoff hitter already. I agree with your main point though, to have two guys like Pelfrey and Mac in the rotation starting next season is just invaluable to a franchise.

 

Pitching is what wins in this game. Its the formula that keeps on getitng teams to the postseason and to the world series.

 

Why do we think that Boston just paid eleventy billion dollars just to pay a Japanese pitcher a kings ransom.

 

Pitching is at a premium. If we can spin Vaz or Garcia off and get someone like Pelfrey to mix up with Bmac it will help our team more in the long run than having a guy who will become a lift and pull powerhitter the minute he comes here.

[santo=dorf]

Sources told the Chicago Tribune's Phil Rogerts that there have been preliminary talks between the White Sox and Mets about a Javier Vazquez deal.

 

Vazquez is owed $12.5 million next year and is then arbitration eligible in 2008, as he won't be eligible to file for free agency because of his trade demand a year ago. Among the Mets being mentioned are Aaron Heilman, Mike Pelfrey and Philip Humber. If the White Sox acquired Heilman, they could then perhaps use him in an effort to get the outfielder they want. Potential targets would include Carl Crawford, Coco Crisp and Aaron Heilman.

So we'll trade the pitching Aaron Heilman for the OF Aaron Heilman?

 

I have a hard time believing KW will trade Vazquez just because he has always liked him and it pretty much shows KW made a mistake trading for him.

 

I'm not saying he won't trade Javy, and I'm not saying Javy won't be any good for the Sox. Personally I hope we keep him.

[DBAHO]

Well business is about to pick up ain't it.

 

So let's see here, Vazquez on the table for I assume Heilman and Pelfrey or Humber. I'm going throw out an 8 ball here. How would people feel if you included Iguchi in the deal to get both Pelfrey AND Humber included (and we may even get another prospect in the deal)? It would never happen, but with Gooch entering the last year of his deal, it's food for thought.

 

Minaya's long had his eyes on Vazquez so I can definitely see something happening here. Doesn't mean that I wouldn't prefer Garcia going instead, but I assume you would get more for Javy because he's got better stuff and he's signed longer.

 

Would the Red Sox do Crisp for Heilman straight up you think? They'd have to sign J.D Drew first, but it could end up being Coco Crisp and Mike Pelfrey or Humber for Javy Vazquez basically.

 

And then there's the question of whether a guy like Crisp would play in LF or CF, if the Sox decided to move Brian Anderson to a team like the Marlins.

 

For the D-Rays, do you think they would accept Fields and Heilman for Crawford. I'd think we probably have to include another prospect as well perhaps.