Mets looking to deal Milledge/Heilman?

[Rowand44]

Pitching is what wins in this game. Its the formula that keeps on getitng teams to the postseason and to the world series.

 

Why do we think that Boston just paid eleventy billion dollars just to pay a Japanese pitcher a kings ransom.

 

Pitching is at a premium. If we can spin Vaz or Garcia off and get someone like Pelfrey to mix up with Bmac it will help our team more in the long run than having a guy who will become a lift and pull powerhitter the minute he comes here.

Like I said before, I dont and wouldn't want to trade Mac or Pelfrey for anything if we did indeed get Mike. I'm just saying Carl is a different player then we have/had, that's why people want him. That's all.

Edited November 14, 2006 by Rowand44

[Gene Honda Civic]

Bmac and Pelfrey with our current offense > Pelfry and current offense + Carl.

You have to weigh these options with the knowledge that Ozzie desires speed, and will play speedy guys at all costs. Kenny is going to get Ozzie a speed guy, I'd rather that speedy guy be one who also has many other tools at his disposal like crawford.

 

Crawford + 1 young pitcher > 2 young pitchers and Dave Roberts, or worse, Juan Pierre.

[Flash Tizzle]

Man, CC is one of the best all-around players in the game. The dude can do everything. I don't buy for a second he would become this "life and pull" guy if he came here. I feel you about the pitching. I'll just say I won't lose any sleep over losing B-Mac if we landed Pelfrey. That's just me, though.

I would understand Williams' reasoning for such a decision, but ultimately, I'd rather maintain both pitchers.

 

How he may figure it, a player of Crawford's value is worth the addition of Pelfrey at the expense of Brandon. He's the protypical leadoff hitter. Once more power develops with plate discipline he'll be --without debate -- the best LF in the game.

 

What I would disagree with unloading McCarthy, even for Crawford, because we're hardly in a better position pitching wise. Sure, we may have our #1 starter, but there's still several positions below him left empty. They're easier to fill but expensive to assemble. We would honestly have to put a lot of faith in Broadway making it to the majors by 2008, and perhaps one more pitcher emerging as well.

 

Say what you want about Vazquez's overall numbers, he held the ability to dominate any ballclub. Without him and Brandon in the rotation -- and Garcia/Buehrle as potential FA past next year -- 2008 may not be too pretty. Don't forget ol' man Contreras and his cranky back and cramped legs every start.

[Jordan4life_2007]

I would understand Williams' reasoning for such a decision, but ultimately, I'd rather maintain both pitchers.

 

How he may figure it, a player of Crawford's value is worth the addition of Pelfrey at the expense of Brandon. He's the protypical leadoff hitter. Once more power develops with plate discipline he'll be --without debate -- the best LF in the game.

 

What I would disagree with unloading McCarthy, even for Crawford, because we're hardly in a better position pitching wise. Sure, we may have our #1 starter, but there's still several positions below him left empty. They're easier to fill but expensive to assemble. We would honestly have to put a lot of faith in Broadway making it to the majors by 2008, and perhaps one more pitcher emerging as well.

 

Say what you want about Vazquez's overall numbers, he held the ability to dominate any ballclub. Without him and Brandon in the rotation -- and Garcia/Buehrle as potential FA past next year -- 2008 may not be too pretty. Don't forget ol' man Contreras and his cranky back and cramped legs every start.

 

All very good points. I don't think any of this is gonna happen anyway. It's just hard not to get warm thinkin' about the possibility of Carl Crawford holdin' down LF of the next 7 or 8 years.

[DBAHO]

Question here, if we acquired Pelfrey, do you think the D-Rays would accept Pelfrey and Fields for Crawford?

 

I'm starting to think Heilman and Fields may not be a good enough offer.

[Flash Tizzle]

So we'll trade the pitching Aaron Heilman for the OF Aaron Heilman?

 

I have a hard time believing KW will trade Vazquez just because he has always liked him and it pretty much shows KW made a mistake trading for him.

 

I'm not saying he won't trade Javy, and I'm not saying Javy won't be any good for the Sox. Personally I hope we keep him.

Hopefully he feels this way and avoids Aaron Rowand as well.

[Jordan4life_2007]

Question here, if we acquired Pelfrey, do you think the D-Rays would accept Pelfrey and Fields for Crawford?

 

I'm starting to think Heilman and Fields may not be a good enough offer.

 

You're just starting to think that?

[Flash Tizzle]

Question here, if we acquired Pelfrey, do you think the D-Rays would accept Pelfrey and Fields for Crawford?

 

I'm starting to think Heilman and Fields may not be a good enough offer.

Whoa, now. If we have Pelfrey in our possessions and are dead-set on acquiring Crawford, his ass is staying put. McCarthy is in that deal with Fields. And I wouldn't be surprised if Williams added Sweeney to place us over the top.

[Jimbo's Drinker]

Oh my god get CC, he is the best all around player in thegame.

[DBAHO]

Whoa, now. If we have Pelfrey in our possessions and are dead-set on acquiring Crawford, his ass is staying put. McCarthy is in that deal with Fields. And I wouldn't be surprised if Williams added Sweeney to place us over the top.

So you'd rather keep Pelfrey over B-Mac right now if you had to choose b/w 1 of the 2?

[witesoxfan]

trade Vazquez and Gooch for Heilman, Pelfrey, and Humber

trade Garcia for Michael Young

bring in veteran insurance and put in AAA

 

Cuz maybe it is just me, but Garland, Buehrle, Contreras, Pelfrey, and McCarthy is pretty sick

 

Of course, there's the whole going into the season with virtually two rookies in the rotation, but that's just part of the risk and reward. Atleast the Sox still have Heilman, which is nice as hell.

 

Of course, then there's the problem with the OF, but with that much money freed up, you can almost sneak into the Soriano race. Whether it's a smart move or not is a different story all together, but it is possible. If not, there's always Alou, Drew, and Jose Guillen(who's sketchy as hell, but still good).

 

Doubtful that's happening, but it's fun for me to think about anyways

[DBAHO]

trade Vazquez and Gooch for Heilman, Pelfrey, and Humber

trade Garcia for Michael Young

bring in veteran insurance and put in AAA

 

Cuz maybe it is just me, but Garland, Buehrle, Contreras, Pelfrey, and McCarthy is pretty sick

 

Of course, there's the whole going into the season with virtually two rookies in the rotation, but that's just part of the risk and reward. Atleast the Sox still have Heilman, which is nice as hell.

 

Of course, then there's the problem with the OF, but with that much money freed up, you can almost sneak into the Soriano race. Whether it's a smart move or not is a different story all together, but it is possible. If not, there's always Alou, Drew, and Jose Guillen(who's sketchy as hell, but still good).

 

Doubtful that's happening, but it's fun for me to think about anyways

And then you could trade Heilman for say Coco Crisp to fill that LF need, and sign a swingman / SP in FA like Zach Day (can't remember what the status is on his shoulder), or Miguel Batista.

 

So you're bringing in;

Michael Young

Mike Pelfrey

Phillip Humber

Coco Crisp

Swingman SP like Day

 

And you're shipping out;

Javier Vazquez

Freddy Garcia

Aaron Heilman

 

So basically it's 2SP's and a swingman SP/reliever for a stud 2B in Young, 2 stud pitching prospects in Pelfrey and Humber, and a solid leadoff hitter in Crisp. You save about $12-$15M in salaries as well, which means you can go after Walker and Speier for the pen, and even enter the J.D Drew stakes if you wanted a CF, which would then allow you to trade Anderson to the Rangers or Marlins for more young pitching.

 

I mean a key thing here is, if the Sox can get a really good return on trading 2 SP's like they have here, if you can sign a pitcher like Batista (4.58 ERA in 2006) to a short - term deal, it's something the Sox should definitely consider.

[DBAHO]

Ok I'm going to add some more blurbs here;

 

From the N.Y Post;

As for the White Sox, they have the same needs, but do not look upon Milledge or Cabrera as a serious upgrade from the collection of young center fielders they have. They have inquired about Mets pitchers such as Phil Humber and Mike Pelfrey previously, and Mets GM Omar Minaya has long liked Jose Contreras, who is signed for three more years.

 

Freddy Garcia and Mark Buehrle will be free agents after the 2007 season, and Jon Garland and Javier Vazquez would be under control through the 2008 campaign. Interestingly, the aggressive White Sox would even listen to offers for Brandon McCarthy, whom they have envisioned as a long-term rotation piece.

 

The Newark Stark Ledger;

The Mets already have had conversations in recent days with the White Sox about acquiring one of their starting pitchers -- likely either Javier Vazquez or Freddy Garcia -- and they are paying attention in case the Marlins put Dontrelle Willis on the market or the Padres do the same with Jake Peavy.

 

And finally Newsday;

Both New York clubs could engage the Chicago White Sox in trade discussions, as the Chisox are open to trading anyone from their starting rotation. This seems a more appealing avenue for the Mets, as the Yankees already have employed Jose Contreras and Javier Vazquez, both unsuccessfully. Minaya had Vazquez while he was the Montreal Expos' GM and tried to acquire him from Arizona last winter.

[bulokis]

I would trade Vazquez to the mets, pls Minaya trade for him.

[Chisoxfn]

Whoa, now. If we have Pelfrey in our possessions and are dead-set on acquiring Crawford, his ass is staying put. McCarthy is in that deal with Fields. And I wouldn't be surprised if Williams added Sweeney to place us over the top.

I agree. At the same time if we get Pelfrey, the first thing I'd do is ship Brandon to Tampa for Crawford if we could make it work. I don't want Bmac/Pelfrey in the same rotation unless we've significantly upgraded a boatload of other areas (including the front 3 of our rotation).

[Gregory Pratt]

I wonder what we could get for Jon Garland in a trade. He'd be my first choice to ship out for young pitching + some youth in position players as I think he's overachieved heavily, but he has fair numbers and good win numbers, so I figure someone'd be willing to overpay for him. Contreras, too, as well as Buehrle.

[RME JICO]

I wonder what we could get for Jon Garland in a trade. He'd be my first choice to ship out for young pitching + some youth in position players as I think he's overachieved heavily, but he has fair numbers and good win numbers, so I figure someone'd be willing to overpay for him. Contreras, too, as well as Buehrle.

The weird thing is Garland's name has probably came up the least in trade talks behind Count, Buehrle, and Vaz/Garcia. That sort of makes me wonder about how KW works (under the radar). However, based off the contract situations, it would seem like Garland and Count would be the two most likely to return for 2007.

Edited November 14, 2006 by RME JICO

[Jordan4life_2007]

I was peepin' this Mets board. I wanted to see their reactions to these lastest rumors. I think saying they're not happy is an understatement.

 

http://amazinz.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=18136

[southsideirish71]

I wonder what we could get for Jon Garland in a trade. He'd be my first choice to ship out for young pitching + some youth in position players as I think he's overachieved heavily, but he has fair numbers and good win numbers, so I figure someone'd be willing to overpay for him. Contreras, too, as well as Buehrle.

 

 

Garland is a sinkerball pitcher playing in an extreme home run park. IMO there are 2 types of pitchers the sox should employ if they want to keep this style of park, sinkerballers and strikeout guys.

 

Out of all of our pitchers Garland would be the last pitcher on the list I would trade. He is young, is affordable, and has some good upside still.

 

Bmac is the next guy I wouldnt trade. The rest, whatever gets us the best deal.

[Chisoxfn]

Garland is a sinkerball pitcher playing in an extreme home run park. IMO there are 2 types of pitchers the sox should employ if they want to keep this style of park, sinkerballers and strikeout guys.

 

Out of all of our pitchers Garland would be the last pitcher on the list I would trade. He is young, is affordable, and has some good upside still.

 

Bmac is the next guy I wouldnt trade. The rest, whatever gets us the best deal.

Seriously, JG should not go anywhere. Plus he's got great initials.

 

On a sidenote, apparently the Mets are after Peavy as well and they seem to be throwing Milledge's name out to any team that is willing. He's such an over-rated prospect its not even funny. Glad to see the paper indicating that Kenny felt that Milledge was really no better than Sweeney (well they didn't specifically name Sweeney, rather said the trio of CF prospects).

[redandwhite]

QUOTE(Tony82087 @ Nov 14, 2006 -> 09:52 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Met fans have huge hard on's for their prospects, just like we do with ours(well, kinda )

 

All fan's do.

 

Point in case Brian N. Anderson with most White Sox fans, and Izzy Alcantara with me.

[Vance Law]

And then you could trade Heilman for say Coco Crisp to fill that LF need,

 

and a solid leadoff hitter in Crisp.

 

Youch. Crisp is actually pretty bogus.

 

Sox fans are frustrated that we didn't make the playoffs with such a good team and want to blame it on Podsednik, (who had a mediocre, not horrible, year and endured some bad slumps), who they saw struggling often during the year, rather than on our pitching (poo-tching, really), which took us to a World Series title in '05 by being the best in the AL all year, and then lights out in the playoffs, and in '06 managed to keep us out of the playoffs despite the having #3 run scoring offense in baseball, by giving up an ENTIRE RUN MORE PER GAME THAN WE DID IN '05. Whew, got it all in in one sentence.

 

Crisp last year had a joke OBP of .317 and managed basically half the number of steals that Pods had.

[Jimbo's Drinker]

Youch. Crisp is actually pretty bogus.

 

Sox fans are frustrated that we didn't make the playoffs with such a good team and want to blame it on Podsednik, (who had a mediocre, not horrible, year and endured some bad slumps), who they saw struggling often during the year, rather than on our pitching (poo-tching, really), which took us to a World Series title in '05 by being the best in the AL all year, and then lights out in the playoffs, and in '06 managed to keep us out of the playoffs despite the having #3 run scoring offense in baseball, by giving up an ENTIRE RUN MORE PER GAME THAN WE DID IN '05. Whew, got it all in in one sentence.

 

Crisp last year had a joke OBP of .317 and managed basically half the number of steals that Pods had.

 

 

Crisp was hurt most of the year, and did his best to come back, despite the injury. Pods, as told to me by my Milwaukee friends will be a bust after year 1. seems about right.

[DBAHO]

Youch. Crisp is actually pretty bogus.

 

Sox fans are frustrated that we didn't make the playoffs with such a good team and want to blame it on Podsednik, (who had a mediocre, not horrible, year and endured some bad slumps), who they saw struggling often during the year, rather than on our pitching (poo-tching, really), which took us to a World Series title in '05 by being the best in the AL all year, and then lights out in the playoffs, and in '06 managed to keep us out of the playoffs despite the having #3 run scoring offense in baseball, by giving up an ENTIRE RUN MORE PER GAME THAN WE DID IN '05. Whew, got it all in in one sentence.

 

Crisp last year had a joke OBP of .317 and managed basically half the number of steals that Pods had.

As Jimbo said that finger injury he had hardly did him any favors whatsoever this season.

In 2005 he had a .300/.345/.465 stat line, which would look very nice for our leadoff hitter.

In comparison, Podsednik had a .261/.330/.353 line.

 

So that OBP of .330 is something that we need to upgrade. Crisp is just about to enter his prime, and is signed for another couple of seasons.

 

If we can't get Crawford (because it costs too much) we need to look at other alternatives like Crisp.

[hitlesswonder]

Crisp was hurt most of the year, and did his best to come back, despite the injury.

 

Crisp has never been a high OBP player (career OBP .329). His career OPS is .745. He is at his peak, in that he is 27, and so it might be reasonable to hope for a year like 2005 (career best) where he was around a .340 OBP with an .810 OPS. I think he didn't play well in CF at all last season (some metrics have him being the worst CF in the AL that qualified with enough innings). And regardless of what you think of metrics, the Red Sox are interested in moving him after trading a big, big time prospect for him and locking him up with a new contract. I think they aren't happy with his glove in CF and don't think his bat is adequate in LF.

 

I don't think Crisp is a bad player, and he's definitely quite a bit better than Pods, but I'd hate to see him hitting 1 or 2 in the White Sox lineup.

 

 

In 2005 he had a .300/.345/.465 stat line, which would look very nice for our leadoff hitter.

In comparison, Podsednik had a .261/.330/.353 line.

 

Maybe it's just me, but .345 is not a good OBP for a leadoff hitter. Iguchi could do that. And Crisp has to hit .300 or above to get his OBP that high, since he doesn't walk. Factor in that you would have to give a up a useful pitcher to get him, and I'll pass on Crisp.