Where's N.O.W. when you need them?

[EvilMonkey]

What are you talking about? Who has ever said any of these things you point out are OK? Who has defended idiocy? The only argument people have is with making this into a crusade.

 

For the umpteenth time... IF YOU MAKE THIS ABOUT RELIGION, THERE WILL BE NO WINNING. You'll just further polarize the situation and give the extremists EXACTLY what they want - a religious crusade. Get it? Its what the extremists on all sides want. A nice, hateful war.

Again, how extreme is it when the nations leading Muslim cleric says these things? If it was Joe Muslim on the street, that'sone thing. How about if the Cardinal from one of the majort US cities says something like this? How long would it be until the Pope himself has to issue apologies and newspapers editorialize about how the Catholic religion is full of hate? It IS about religion, but a segment of that religion. A segment that needs to be cut from the body post haste, but without cooperation from the rest of the religion, will never be done. So-called 'moderate Muslims' need to be pissed as hell, and start venting that frustration at their own who make them look bad by association. The true crusade needs to be within Islam, for them to bring themselves into the 21st century.

[NorthSideSox72]

Again, how extreme is it when the nations leading Muslim cleric says these things? If it was Joe Muslim on the street, that'sone thing. How about if the Cardinal from one of the majort US cities says something like this? How long would it be until the Pope himself has to issue apologies and newspapers editorialize about how the Catholic religion is full of hate? It IS about religion, but a segment of that religion. A segment that needs to be cut from the body post haste, but without cooperation from the rest of the religion, will never be done. So-called 'moderate Muslims' need to be pissed as hell, and start venting that frustration at their own who make them look bad by association. The true crusade needs to be within Islam, for them to bring themselves into the 21st century.

I definitely agree that the best thing that Islam can do, if it wants peace, is to do much more to seperate the moderate core from the extremists (who clearly are gaining momentum). Unfortunately, part of the problem with doing that is Islam isn't centralized like Catholicism or other religions are. Its tough to move the religion in any organized fashion.

 

So, I think the focus needs to be on the actions of the idiots. Extremism is sort of the "in" thing right now in Islam, so many clerics will try to win support via these types of comments (the clerics are very competitive). And to an extent, they are clearly making this work. More and more people are attracted to that in the Middle East. So what can Islam do? I think what we are seeing is the moderates being silent, as you point out. They are, I think, taking a wait and see approach on how things will shake out. I personally find that a bit disturbing, but, its what is happening.

 

Now the big question - what do WE do? What we should not do is make this about Islam, because that just contributes to the extremist wave. I would instead suggest a combination of other things...

 

One, you try to get as friendly as possible with the power brokers that are not at the extremes, among muslim Middle Eastern leaders. Negotiate. And yes, believe it or not, I'd say we should give them things they want. Focus on countries like Turkey, India, UAE, Qatar, Bahrain, Egypt, Jordan and other moderate states with large islamic populations, and try to use them as partners in the fight. I am not saying this will be easy, but at least give it some effort (which we have done only partially to this point).

 

Two, you get us off of oil ASAP, so we are in a power position in negotiations, instead of one of weakness. Even the first whiffs of any serious move this direction by the U.S. will bring many Middle Eastern countries to the table. Thus far, the current US Congress and PrezAdmin have shown almost zero desire to get this done.

 

Three, you get serious about building Iraq. Yeah, the war was a debacle and still is. But pulling out is a huge mistake. Instead, commit MORE troops, and restructure our process there from the ground up. Pull troops out of areas we cannot control entirely, and beef up the central cities. Let Kurdistan go their own way (if not officially, then under the covers). Get a semi-calm Baghdad and a stable government (which will take years). Then, the extremists and violent factions will be forced out to specific, remote parts of the country. This isolates them from the mainstream, makes them easier to find and kill, etc.

 

You notice how none of these point any fingers at Islam? And none of these things will encourage extremism in the long run? It also gives an out for the moderates in a few different angles. Make it about peace versus war, instead of Islam vs TheRestOfTheWorld. Its the only way we can be successful, in my opinion.

[EvilMonkey]

I definitely agree that the best thing that Islam can do, if it wants peace, is to do much more to seperate the moderate core from the extremists (who clearly are gaining momentum). Unfortunately, part of the problem with doing that is Islam isn't centralized like Catholicism or other religions are. Its tough to move the religion in any organized fashion.

 

So, I think the focus needs to be on the actions of the idiots. Extremism is sort of the "in" thing right now in Islam, so many clerics will try to win support via these types of comments (the clerics are very competitive). And to an extent, they are clearly making this work. More and more people are attracted to that in the Middle East. So what can Islam do? I think what we are seeing is the moderates being silent, as you point out. They are, I think, taking a wait and see approach on how things will shake out. I personally find that a bit disturbing, but, its what is happening.

 

Now the big question - what do WE do? What we should not do is make this about Islam, because that just contributes to the extremist wave. I would instead suggest a combination of other things...

 

One, you try to get as friendly as possible with the power brokers that are not at the extremes, among muslim Middle Eastern leaders. Negotiate. And yes, believe it or not, I'd say we should give them things they want. Focus on countries like Turkey, India, UAE, Qatar, Bahrain, Egypt, Jordan and other moderate states with large islamic populations, and try to use them as partners in the fight. I am not saying this will be easy, but at least give it some effort (which we have done only partially to this point).

 

Two, you get us off of oil ASAP, so we are in a power position in negotiations, instead of one of weakness. Even the first whiffs of any serious move this direction by the U.S. will bring many Middle Eastern countries to the table. Thus far, the current US Congress and PrezAdmin have shown almost zero desire to get this done.

 

Three, you get serious about building Iraq. Yeah, the war was a debacle and still is. But pulling out is a huge mistake. Instead, commit MORE troops, and restructure our process there from the ground up. Pull troops out of areas we cannot control entirely, and beef up the central cities. Let Kurdistan go their own way (if not officially, then under the covers). Get a semi-calm Baghdad and a stable government (which will take years). Then, the extremists and violent factions will be forced out to specific, remote parts of the country. This isolates them from the mainstream, makes them easier to find and kill, etc.

 

You notice how none of these point any fingers at Islam? And none of these things will encourage extremism in the long run? It also gives an out for the moderates in a few different angles. Make it about peace versus war, instead of Islam vs TheRestOfTheWorld. Its the only way we can be successful, in my opinion.

That is an excellent post, and I agree with most of it, especially the dependence on oil part. However, i think that it will almost HAVE to get worse in general, for the moderates to come to the table and clean their own house. I don't want it to get worse, but I believe that alot of the moderates won't come around unless they are forced to, one way or another.

[NorthSideSox72]

That is an excellent post, and I agree with most of it, especially the dependence on oil part. However, i think that it will almost HAVE to get worse in general, for the moderates to come to the table and clean their own house. I don't want it to get worse, but I believe that alot of the moderates won't come around unless they are forced to, one way or another.

I agree, they will need more reason. I personally think the reduction of need for oil could be that reason. But that, like the Iraq war, will take serious time and money.