Sarge Jr.

[Chisoxfn]

We have a thread on Carl Crawford but I really believe Gary Matthews Jr. deserves his own thread. Yes, he's going to get paid probably 20-24 mill over 3 years (maybe someone even gives him a 4 year deal) and yes this was by far his best season in his career.

 

However, look at his stats from the prior season and you'd see that this is a guy whose made great strides and is developing into his prime. This is a guy that would fit in beautifully in the 2 spot on the Southside and would also play gold glove caliber defense in CF.

 

Now I realize we have a lot of salary comitted and I'm not necessarily saying this is a signing I'd make, but I'd once again say we shouldn't acquire someone because we have money going to a ton of our pitchers or other guys. I stick to my guns that if I were in charge Crawford would be in Chicago (especially if all it took was McCarthy) and that Thome would be packing his bags elsewhere and we'd be freeing up salary that way (in addition to probably moving a starter for prospects). That would open up the flood-gates to make a push at Pierre/Matthews Jr/Figgins to join Crawford and team up to form one of the premiere 1-2 bunches in baseball (the type of 1-2 punch a manager like Ozzie would gush over).

 

Its also the type of 1-2 punch that would be very affordable considering Crawford's contract. Yes, we'd lose Thome from our lineup and yes it would make our lineup very right handed dominante, but lets also remember that a right handed dominated lineup did quite the job in the 05 playoffs and this lineup would be superior to that one in every way, shape or form.

 

The Thome deal would give the team some top top notch pitching prospects and payroll flexibility to make a move and obviously we'd have to find a DH. Well thats where a lefty bat fits in and that could even be a guy like Sweeney (if we want to stay cheap) who would obviously get tons of time in the OF as well. Or Mack could get some of that DH time or they could try and pick up that DH in the Thome deal.

 

Now you have a lineup consisting of:

Figgins or Sarge or Pierre

Crawford

Dye

Konerko

AJP

Crede

DH (Or if we get a better DH, you flop him with AJP)

Iguchi

Uribe

 

The rotation would currently consist of our remaining 5 (as no starters have been dealt) and Thome salary has pretty much gone to Crawford and the other outfielder. So now you ask how does that really help the team?

 

Well we now have Brian Anderson, top prospetcs from the Thome trade (in fact Figgins and a couple top prospects could probably be a fair deal w/LAA), and front of the rotation starters who we can deal. Possibly Josh Fields as well (depending on where the Sox stand with Crede). I'd like to think that with that the club would have the flexibility to move one of our starters for a major league ready young starter or we could also have the chips to go get a Jake Peavy or another young starter to enter into our rotation (if we deem it necessary).

 

Basically we overhall the offense w/speed(it still has power), improve the defense, rebuild the farm system (through the Thome trade and potentially through a deal of a Garcia or someone else) and still throw out one of the best rotations in baseball.

 

Yes, we'd have to re-sign some of these guys in 08 but we now know that the club has prospects to get other starters (or these guys could develop on there own) and quite frankly if Buehrle or Garcia walk the club has money thats freed up which they could than spend on finding another starter to come in (or money that we can add via trade and a prospect or two to get that starter).

 

Basically put I don't worry that much about losing Garcia/Buehrle because Kenny would have all the chips in place to find new guys to enter that rotation when the time comes while still being a potentially dominant team in 07 (and in the future).

 

In the end we could be rolling out a much more balanced lineup, a strong pitching staff (obviously Kenny would have to find a way to add a reliever), and a farm system in which Kenny can develop from or trade from.

[Rowand44]

I'm just going to go ahead and close this thread, nothing to see here.

 

 

Interesting ideas, I still don't wanna trade Brandon though.

[chitownsportsfan]

Forget Sarge, he has a career OPS+ of 96 and last season was a career year. I don't know why the Sox would want to sign a guy that is coming off a career year that he will hard pressed to ever duplicate.

 

I also don't know why you want to get rid of Thome. Thome posted a top 20 VORP last year and although he's crap against lefties he mashes righties -- and last time I checked -- most pitchers are right handed.

 

Crawford for McCarthy is a silly deal because the Sox were 2nd in MLB in RS but middle of the road in RA. BA was one of the best defensive CF in baseball last year and we need all the defense we can get.

 

I'd much rather trade FG or Javier for pitching prospects and insert BMAC into the rotation.

 

The lineup doesn't need more speed, the lineup scored a ton of runs last year. Run prevention was the problem, mostly because the defense wasn't as good as 2005 (thanks Ozzie for playing Mac so much in CF) and because the pitching went from a strenght to a liability.

 

The Sox need to focus on run prevention and replace Pods with a live body out in LF and everything will take care of itself otherwise on the offense. Thome/Dye/Kong is as good of trio as their is in baseball and they don't need speed in front of them as much as guys that can get on base.

Edited November 2, 2006 by chitownsportsfan

[Rowand44]

Forget Sarge, he has a career OPS+ of 96 and last season was a career year. I don't know why the Sox would want to sign a guy that is coming off a career year that he will hard pressed to ever duplicate.

 

I also don't know why you want to get rid of Thome. Thome posted a top 20 VORP last year and although he's crap against lefties he mashes righties -- and last time I checked -- most pitchers are right handed.

 

Crawford for McCarthy is a silly deal because the Sox were 2nd in MLB in RS but middle of the road in RA. BA was one of the best defensive CF in baseball last year and we need all the defense we can get.

 

I'd much rather trade FG or Javier for pitching prospects and insert BMAC into the rotation.

 

The lineup doesn't need more speed, the lineup scored a ton of runs last year. Run prevention was the problem, mostly because the defense wasn't as good as 2005 (thanks Ozzie for playing Mac so much in CF) and because the pitching went from a strenght to a liability.

 

The Sox need to focus on run prevention and replace Pods with a live body out in LF and everything will take care of itself otherwise on the offense. Thome/Dye/Kong is as good of trio as their is in baseball and they don't need speed in front of them as much as guys that can get on base.

I don't think you're going to change his opinion with stats like ops+ and vorp for the record.

 

As far as getting as just getting a high obp guy to leadoff, well whether you like it or not that's not what Ozzie wants, he wants a guy that can run and bunt and he'll get one.

Edited November 2, 2006 by Rowand44

[chitownsportsfan]

Yea but I can try. As for Ozzie getting what he wants I think KW has shown in the past that he's the man in charge not Ozzie and I hope he continues with his ideas on how to score runs because they are a lot better than Ozzie's.

 

I like Ozzie as a motivational guy but he's a poor tactician and has some crazy ideas about how runs are scored in baseball.

Edited November 2, 2006 by chitownsportsfan

[Chisoxfn]

Forget Sarge, he has a career OPS+ of 96 and last season was a career year. I don't know why the Sox would want to sign a guy that is coming off a career year that he will hard pressed to ever duplicate.

 

I also don't know why you want to get rid of Thome. Thome posted a top 20 VORP last year and although he's crap against lefties he mashes righties -- and last time I checked -- most pitchers are right handed.

 

Crawford for McCarthy is a silly deal because the Sox were 2nd in MLB in RS but middle of the road in RA. BA was one of the best defensive CF in baseball last year and we need all the defense we can get.

 

I'd much rather trade FG or Javier for pitching prospects and insert BMAC into the rotation.

 

The lineup doesn't need more speed, the lineup scored a ton of runs last year. Run prevention was the problem, mostly because the defense wasn't as good as 2005 (thanks Ozzie for playing Mac so much in CF) and because the pitching went from a strenght to a liability.

 

The Sox need to focus on run prevention and replace Pods with a live body out in LF and everything will take care of itself otherwise on the offense. Thome/Dye/Kong is as good of trio as their is in baseball and they don't need speed in front of them as much as guys that can get on base.

Ozzie is our manager, he wants speed, therefor you get him speed. Plus offense can be shutdown by top notch pitching, speed can't be (if its in a player that has actual abilities). And yes I am probably the biggest Thome hater on this board because I see him really falling off over the next couple of seasons and think now is as good a time as any to move him (while we can get top notch value and not have to pick up any of his contract).

 

Don't tell me about BA, I am BA's biggest advocate but if Ozzie isn't going to play him I'm going to get someone who can play damn good CF defense day in day out (cause I don't want another day of Mack). Fact of the matter is Ozzie isn't a big fan of Bmac so again its time where I make a move while one of our guys value's is at a peak (Brandon's) and get a guy whose signed to an insanely affordable deal with HOF potential (whose already playing at an All Star Level).

 

I don't think you're going to change his opinion with stats like ops+ and vorp for the record.

 

As far as getting as just getting a high obp guy to leadoff, well whether you like it or not that's not what Ozzie wants, he wants a guy that can run and bunt and he'll get one.

Ah, you know me too well Row . I think you hit it on the head too, when it comes to the top of the order we have to get Ozzie what he wants. We know I'm not a huge Ozzie fan but we have him so we better give him the type of club he can win with.

[chitownsportsfan]

Ozzie is our manager, he wants speed, therefor you get him speed. Plus offense can be shutdown by top notch pitching, speed can't be (if its in a player that has actual abilities). And yes I am probably the biggest Thome hater on this board because I see him really falling off over the next couple of seasons and think now is as good a time as any to move him (while we can get top notch value and not have to pick up any of his contract).

 

Don't tell me about BA, I am BA's biggest advocate but if Ozzie isn't going to play him I'm going to get someone who can play damn good CF defense day in day out (cause I don't want another day of Mack). Fact of the matter is Ozzie isn't a big fan of Bmac so again its time where I make a move while one of our guys value's is at a peak (Brandon's) and get a guy whose signed to an insanely affordable deal with HOF potential (whose already playing at an All Star Level).

 

 

Yea I def undertand the "pragmatism argument" with Ozzie. I just feel that it's important that KW lets Ozzie know that he's the GM for a reason and it's because he knows more about succesful team construction then Ozzie. I also hope that KW lays down the law and tells Oz that if he doesn't insert BA as his starting CF in 4/5 games next year Ozzie can find some different employment.

 

I do agree about Thome though and if he can be traded for pitching prospects I say do it. He's unlikely to have another season like 2006 and I here your point about him dropping off substantially.

 

All in all I like that you responded reasonably.

 

I avoided this place for about 4 months mostly because of the attitude of ppl around here when the Sox aren't winning is a major turnoff.

 

It's good to see this offseason so far has been marked by civility.

[RockRaines]

Ozzie is our manager, he wants speed, therefor you get him speed. Plus offense can be shutdown by top notch pitching, speed can't be (if its in a player that has actual abilities).

That makes no sense BTW, if the guy cant get on base, his speed means nothing, plus we wont be stealing home very much next year, I am willing to bet on that. Our offense produces a ton of runs, and we have one of the best middle of the order lineups in all of baseball. If you want to improve the club, you focus on the more glaring weaknesses, markedly the starting rotation and the bullpen. Getting prospects and unloading more offense for speed does nothing to fix the major holes in this team.

[santo=dorf]

Trading Thome is an idiotic move and isn't going to happen.

 

How did all those right handed dominant Sox teams do a few years ago? Don't we face more right handers than left handers?

 

Oh yeah, trading Thome isn't going to happen. He was the second best hitter on the team last year only becasue Dye was playing out of his mind, and Thome was also protecting him when he was in the 4th spot.

 

But I guess I'll just never change the opinion of those with a selective second half memory who won't let the damn stats get in their way.

Edited November 2, 2006 by santo=dorf

[VAfan]

Back before the World Series I wrote a post that said we should sign either Soriano or Matthews Jr. At this point, it is pretty clear Soriano is going to be priced too high. It is not so clear what Matthews Jr. will fetch. For the right price, I'm still all for him.

 

On the Dave Roberts post, I was a little late, but agreed with the poster who offered Moises Alou's name. I think Alou, who's 40, may be an excellent "bridge" candidate to carry us over while Brian Anderson/Sweeney/Fields develop. He kills left handers (which also makes him valuable as a sub for Jim Thome, who was pretty bad (sub-.400 slugging) against lefties). He's played for several winning teams. He would fit perfectly in our clubhouse. He would pair pretty well with Mack, who kills righties.

 

The other value of a guy like Alou is that he's a free agent. We've thinned our depth by trying to always build through trades. I think this offseason the Sox would be well-advised to strengthen through free agency.

[Flash Tizzle]

The rotation would currently consist of our remaining 5 (as no starters have been dealt) and Thome salary has pretty much gone to Crawford and the other outfielder. So now you ask how does that really help the team?

 

Well we now have Brian Anderson, top prospetcs from the Thome trade (in fact Figgins and a couple top prospects could probably be a fair deal w/LAA), and front of the rotation starters who we can deal. Possibly Josh Fields as well (depending on where the Sox stand with Crede). I'd like to think that with that the club would have the flexibility to move one of our starters for a major league ready young starter or we could also have the chips to go get a Jake Peavy or another young starter to enter into our rotation (if we deem it necessary).

 

This is where I completely differ from your opinion. Not necessarily trading Thome, but keeping the current rotation entact. Personally, I don't think Williams can reasonably allow 40% of his rotation to leave for FA without ANY compensation. We need a reasonable return for either Buehlre or Garcia. Who exactly replaces either pitcher? You mention how the money saved could be used to obtain replacements, but it's not going to be that simple. Likely, we'll have to sign extended contracts or overpay midseason (again) for another starter. It ultimately depends on how the 2008 SP market looks.

 

Another suggestion was using prospects from Thome (among ours) to obtain a starter. Well, this completely depends on the package an opposing team offers. Include Figgens, as you cited, those other two prospects likely won't be the quality we'd hope for. I'd like to expect another general manager to adopt a Williams philosophy and overpay for our players, but of course, that never happens.

 

I'd prefer a trade of Thome for pitching prospects; trade of Garcia/Buehrle/Vazquez for even more pitching prospects; acquisition of Roberts and an additional bullpen arm; then inserting McCarthy into the rotation. Afterwards we sit completely still. No f***ing around with an already potent lineup. At which point, similar to your scenario, we're still without a DH yet maintain a large collection of pitching prospects and McCarthy.

 

From this point, then, you may trade prospects accordingly before 2008. Fix whichever areas of the team need an upgrade. This would only be possible because the minor league system may possess several quality SP prospects. One/two would be expendable. Young pitching is always at a premium.

[santo=dorf]

Wow, and even stupider idea!

 

Trade all the proven players for pitching prospects, then trade those prospects to fill the holes we just created!

[Flash Tizzle]

The other value of a guy like Alou is that he's a free agent. We've thinned our depth by trying to always build through trades. I think this offseason the Sox would be well-advised to strengthen through free agency.

Completely forget about him. There's my DH if Thome were ever traded.

 

Not to boil Dorf's blood; I don't expect him to be traded, either. Just suggesting if he were, what I'd prefer over Jason's scenario.

Edited November 2, 2006 by Flash Tizzle

[Balta1701]

Trading Thome is an idiotic move and isn't going to happen.

 

How did all those right handed dominant Sox teams do a few years ago? Don't we face more right handers than left handers?

 

Oh yeah, trading Thome isn't going to happen. He was the second best hitter on the team last year only becasue Dye was playing out of his mind, and Thome was also protecting him when he was in the 4th spot.

 

But I guess I'll just never change the opinion of those with a selective second half memory who won't let the damn stats get in their way.

Perhaps more important than any of that, I believe Jim Thome's contract still has a no-trade clause, am I correct? Last year he had to waive his no-trade clause in order to come to the White Sox, but he was only willing to do so with the White Sox and Indians.

[BobDylan]

We have a thread on Carl Crawford but I really believe Gary Matthews Jr. deserves his own thread. Yes, he's going to get paid probably 20-24 mill over 3 years (maybe someone even gives him a 4 year deal) and yes this was by far his best season in his career.

 

However, look at his stats from the prior season and you'd see that this is a guy whose made great strides and is developing into his prime. This is a guy that would fit in beautifully in the 2 spot on the Southside and would also play gold glove caliber defense in CF.

 

Now I realize we have a lot of salary comitted and I'm not necessarily saying this is a signing I'd make, but I'd once again say we shouldn't acquire someone because we have money going to a ton of our pitchers or other guys. I stick to my guns that if I were in charge Crawford would be in Chicago (especially if all it took was McCarthy) and that Thome would be packing his bags elsewhere and we'd be freeing up salary that way (in addition to probably moving a starter for prospects). That would open up the flood-gates to make a push at Pierre/Matthews Jr/Figgins to join Crawford and team up to form one of the premiere 1-2 bunches in baseball (the type of 1-2 punch a manager like Ozzie would gush over).

 

Its also the type of 1-2 punch that would be very affordable considering Crawford's contract. Yes, we'd lose Thome from our lineup and yes it would make our lineup very right handed dominante, but lets also remember that a right handed dominated lineup did quite the job in the 05 playoffs and this lineup would be superior to that one in every way, shape or form.

 

The Thome deal would give the team some top top notch pitching prospects and payroll flexibility to make a move and obviously we'd have to find a DH. Well thats where a lefty bat fits in and that could even be a guy like Sweeney (if we want to stay cheap) who would obviously get tons of time in the OF as well. Or Mack could get some of that DH time or they could try and pick up that DH in the Thome deal.

 

Now you have a lineup consisting of:

Figgins or Sarge or Pierre

Crawford

Dye

Konerko

AJP

Crede

DH (Or if we get a better DH, you flop him with AJP)

Iguchi

Uribe

 

The rotation would currently consist of our remaining 5 (as no starters have been dealt) and Thome salary has pretty much gone to Crawford and the other outfielder. So now you ask how does that really help the team?

 

Well we now have Brian Anderson, top prospetcs from the Thome trade (in fact Figgins and a couple top prospects could probably be a fair deal w/LAA), and front of the rotation starters who we can deal. Possibly Josh Fields as well (depending on where the Sox stand with Crede). I'd like to think that with that the club would have the flexibility to move one of our starters for a major league ready young starter or we could also have the chips to go get a Jake Peavy or another young starter to enter into our rotation (if we deem it necessary).

 

Basically we overhall the offense w/speed(it still has power), improve the defense, rebuild the farm system (through the Thome trade and potentially through a deal of a Garcia or someone else) and still throw out one of the best rotations in baseball.

 

Yes, we'd have to re-sign some of these guys in 08 but we now know that the club has prospects to get other starters (or these guys could develop on there own) and quite frankly if Buehrle or Garcia walk the club has money thats freed up which they could than spend on finding another starter to come in (or money that we can add via trade and a prospect or two to get that starter).

 

Basically put I don't worry that much about losing Garcia/Buehrle because Kenny would have all the chips in place to find new guys to enter that rotation when the time comes while still being a potentially dominant team in 07 (and in the future).

 

In the end we could be rolling out a much more balanced lineup, a strong pitching staff (obviously Kenny would have to find a way to add a reliever), and a farm system in which Kenny can develop from or trade from.

 

I really can't see McCarthy on the team next year. Every part of logic pointed towards putting him in the rotation last year. Why did he stay in the bullpen? Ozzie runs the team. There's an issue between them--be it his mentality or his stuff or that he just doesn't plain like him--but as much control KW has, Ozzie is no pony. He's here to do it his way and only his way. Given that, it's KW's job to go out and get the players that work for Ozzie. It starts with the guys at the top of the order.

Edited November 3, 2006 by BobDylan

[hi8is]

someone refresh my memory... when do the winter meetings begin?

[CWSGuy406]

It starts with the guys at the top of the order.

 

Or with guys who can pitch reasonably well. Like McCarthy.

[BobDylan]

Or with guys who can pitch reasonably well. Like McCarthy.

 

Ahh, the classic take one line out of context.

[southsideirish71]

I really can't see McCarthy on the team next year. Every part of logic pointed towards putting him in the rotation last year. Why did he stay in the bullpen? Ozzie runs the team. There's an issue between them--be it his mentality or his stuff or that he just doesn't plain like him--but as much control KW has, Ozzie is no pony. He's here to do it his way and only his way. Given that, it's KW's job to go out and get the players that work for Ozzie. It starts with the guys at the top of the order.

 

So your suggestion is that we are going to sink boat loads of money keeping around aging pitching, some of them who pitched like crap last year just because of a perceived tiff with Ozzie. Mr 2005 Gload says hi. He was on the Ozzie hated list, yet seems to survive on this team for some reason.

 

3 pitchers, 2 of which pitched with decreased velocity. One of them publically showed up their team multiple times and pretty much said yeah I dont give max effort against teams that he doesnt term as good enough for his golden 86 mph effort.

 

How about this for predictions, I see Freddy fastball gone, gone to the NL. I see bmac in the rotation ready to go. If we trade bmac and keep freddy fastball lobbing up 86 mph garbage in the heat of the summer, we might as well white flag it and rebuild if that is our strategy.

[BobDylan]

So your suggestion is that we are going to sink boat loads of money keeping around aging pitching, some of them who pitched like crap last year just because of a perceived tiff with Ozzie. Mr 2005 Gload says hi. He was on the Ozzie hated list, yet seems to survive on this team for some reason.

 

3 pitchers, 2 of which pitched with decreased velocity. One of them publically showed up their team multiple times and pretty much said yeah I dont give max effort against teams that he doesnt term as good enough for his golden 86 mph effort.

 

How about this for predictions, I see Freddy fastball gone, gone to the NL. I see bmac in the rotation ready to go. If we trade bmac and keep freddy fastball lobbing up 86 mph garbage in the heat of the summer, we might as well white flag it and rebuild if that is our strategy.

 

You proved my point. Thanks. Anyone could see changes needed to be made in the rotation last year. They weren't.

 

Ozzie gets and plays the players he wants, plain and simple.

 

And just to edit one more time, unless KW can get somebody better than Carl Crawford for Freddy, I see Freddy back in the rotation. 86 MPH, yea, sure. He still somehow won 17 games with a pretty reasonable 4.53 ERA.

Edited November 3, 2006 by BobDylan

[beck72]

Sarge Jr. is more likely to go to LAA. If that's the case, I could see the sox making a play for figgins. He'd be cheaper than both Pierre and Matthews.

[greasywheels121]

http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sp...tesox-headlines

 

He's interested.

[SoxFan1]

someone refresh my memory... when do the winter meetings begin?

November 12th

[DBAHO]

Sarge Jr. is more likely to go to LAA. If that's the case, I could see the sox making a play for figgins. He'd be cheaper than both Pierre and Matthews.

What was confusing about Figgins this season, he had a .321 OBP as the leadoff hitter in 131 games, and then when he was moved to the 9 spot (last in the season IIRC), in 17 games he had splits of .352/.410/.593 (albeit it's a very small sample size).

[RME JICO]

What was confusing about Figgins this season, he had a .321 OBP as the leadoff hitter in 131 games, and then when he was moved to the 9 spot (last in the season IIRC), in 17 games he had splits of .352/.410/.593 (albeit it's a very small sample size).

 

I know Podsednik is out of favor with the Sox, but would Figgins be that big of an upgrade?