Sarge Jr.

[Chisoxfn]

I know Podsednik is out of favor with the Sox, but would Figgins be that big of an upgrade?

A ridiculous upgrade. Sorry but I've seen a lot of Figgins and a lot of Pods and they are in totally different leagues (I don't care what the stats say either).

[Vance Law]

A ridiculous upgrade. Sorry but I've seen a lot of Figgins and a lot of Pods and they are in totally different leagues (I don't care what the stats say either).

 

You should care what the stats say. The stats say that in terms of getting on base, Figgins is a downgrade from Podsednik last year. Your opinion of Podsednik, like apparently a lot of Sox fans, is overly emotion-based. Frustrated from his not having a great year last year. Nonetheless, there are very few other elite speed-merchants in the game like Podsednik. A few of them are ones that have been mentioned as possibly coming to the Sox: Pierre, Figgins, D. Roberts. Of them, as frustrating as it was to see Pods struggle day and and day out, Pierre and Figgins did virtually no better a job at getting on base. We just didn't have to watch them every day. Pierre and Pods had identical OBPs of .330 last year, but Pierre will be asking for 78 gabillion dollars in free agency. Figgins sucked ass even worse as a lead-off man, and overall had only a .336 OBP. The only one who had a markedly better year was Roberts. .293 avg .360 OBP 49SB and a .292 avg against lefties. It is possible that Podsednik is 4th best of these. What will happen next year? I don't know. You don't know. Nobody knows. Which of these players will have a year like they did in '05? '06? Is it worth it to gamble that Pierre (who had the exact same OBP as Pods) will be so much better than Pods to give him 4 or 5 million dollars more than Pods? Really? In '05 Pods played 33 fewer games than Pierre, but stole 2 more bases. What would we have to give up to get Figgins? Too much, so as to make it not worth it? Probably. Roberts would likely be relatively cheap in free agency, had a better year last year. What is the liklihood he'll be more injury-free than Pods next year? I don't know. Nobody knows.

 

What nobody has mentioned. Why are we not trying to get Ryan Freel from the Reds? Why are we not trying to get Ryan Freel, who the Reds would not even play every day? Why are we not trying to get Ryan Freel who made $1.5 million last year and who the Reds would not play every day and who plays many positions in the infield and outfield and who plays like goddamn Rowand and who stole 37 bases and had a .371 OBP last year?

 

Trade Thome? Oh my. Oh dear lord, why?

 

Dump salary? What salary. He's one of the top maulers in the game and we're only paying basically $7 million a year for him ( or if you like $14 million last year, $14 million this year, and -$7 million in '08. that's negative $7 million in '08!!!)

Edited November 8, 2006 by Vance Law

[witesoxfan]

You should care what the stats say. The stats say that in terms of getting on base, Figgins is a downgrade from Podsednik last year. Your opinion of Podsednik, like apparently a lot of Sox fans, is overly emotion-based. Frustrated from his not having a great year last year. Nonetheless, there are very few other elite speed-merchants in the game like Podsednik. A few of them are ones that have been mentioned as possibly coming to the Sox: Pierre, Figgins, D. Roberts. Of them, as frustrating as it was to see Pods struggle day and and day out, Pierre and Figgins did virtually no better a job at getting on base. We just didn't have to watch them every day. Pierre and Pods had identical OBPs of .330 last year, but Pierre will be asking for 78 gabillion dollars in free agency. Figgins sucked ass even worse as a lead-off man, and overall had only a .336 OBP. The only one who had a markedly better year was Roberts. .293 avg .360 OBP 49SB and a .292 avg against lefties. It is possible that Podsednik is 4th best of these. What will happen next year? I don't know. You don't know. Nobody knows. Which of these players will have a year like they did in '05? '06? Is it worth it to gamble that Pierre (who had the exact same OBP as Pods) will be so much better than Pods to give him 4 or 5 million dollars more than Pods? Really? In '05 Pods played 33 fewer games than Pierre, but stole 2 more bases. What would we have to give up to get Figgins? Too much, so as to make it not worth it? Probably. Roberts would likely be relatively cheap in free agency, had a better year last year. What is the liklihood he'll be more injury-free than Pods next year? I don't know. Nobody knows.

 

What nobody has mentioned. Why are we not trying to get Ryan Freel from the Reds? Why are we not trying to get Ryan Freel, who the Reds would not even play every day? Why are we not trying to get Ryan Freel who made $1.5 million last year and who the Reds would not play every day and who plays many positions in the infield and outfield and who plays like goddamn Rowand and who stole 37 bases and had a .371 OBP last year?

 

Chone Figgins had a horrible year, but he straightened himself out eventually and started to hit better late in the year. He was also 52 of 68 in SBs, right around 76%.

Juan Pierre was mediocre as hell, but he too atleast stole bases. 58/78, right around 74%.

Podsednik was horrendous in the second half, and was 40/59 in SBs, or 68%, which is absolutely pitiful. Add to the fact that he was completely horrible defensively too, and I'd rather have Rickey Henderson leading off next year for the Sox rather than Podsednik.

 

Once Ryan Freel was given a starting job after the Nats trade, he put up an OBP of .325 in August, and a .311 OBP in September, along with the fact that he's a lunatic.

[Balta1701]

Chone Figgins had a horrible year, but he straightened himself out eventually and started to hit better late in the year. He was also 52 of 68 in SBs, right around 76%.

Juan Pierre was mediocre as hell, but he too atleast stole bases. 58/78, right around 74%.

Podsednik was horrendous in the second half, and was 40/59 in SBs, or 68%, which is absolutely pitiful. Add to the fact that he was completely horrible defensively too, and I'd rather have Rickey Henderson leading off next year for the Sox rather than Podsednik.

 

Once Ryan Freel was given a starting job after the Nats trade, he put up an OBP of .325 in August, and a .311 OBP in September, along with the fact that he's a lunatic.

So, the difference between a 75% SB clip and a 68% SB clip, in 59 attempts, is 4 stolen bases. If Podsednik had been 44/59, you'd say he was ok? He'd basically have been Figgins with the bat and on the bases then. 4 stolen bases would have made that big of a difference so as to justify trading away something valuable, and potentially helping the Angels out in the process, in order to get Figgins?

 

The only way plugging in Figgins makes sense is if you think he'll have a major rebound season next year. Yes he's better defensively, but he's not going to come to us for free, nor is he going to come as an even-trade for Podsednik, nor is he a free agent.

[Jordan4life_2007]

Chone Figgins had a horrible year, but he straightened himself out eventually and started to hit better late in the year. He was also 52 of 68 in SBs, right around 76%.

Juan Pierre was mediocre as hell, but he too atleast stole bases. 58/78, right around 74%.

Podsednik was horrendous in the second half, and was 40/59 in SBs, or 68%, which is absolutely pitiful. Add to the fact that he was completely horrible defensively too, and I'd rather have Rickey Henderson leading off next year for the Sox rather than Podsednik.

 

Once Ryan Freel was given a starting job after the Nats trade, he put up an OBP of .325 in August, and a .311 OBP in September, along with the fact that he's a lunatic.

 

Give me Otis Nixon.

[witesoxfan]

So, the difference between a 75% SB clip and a 68% SB clip, in 59 attempts, is 4 stolen bases. If Podsednik had been 44/59, you'd say he was ok? He'd basically have been Figgins with the bat and on the bases then. 4 stolen bases would have made that big of a difference so as to justify trading away something valuable, and potentially helping the Angels out in the process, in order to get Figgins?

 

The only way plugging in Figgins makes sense is if you think he'll have a major rebound season next year. Yes he's better defensively, but he's not going to come to us for free, nor is he going to come as an even-trade for Podsednik, nor is he a free agent.

 

First of all, I'm not entirely sure those numbers include the number of times he was picked off. I don't believe it does, and Podsednik was picked off the bases way too many times this year.

 

Secondly, yes, regarding base stealing, Podsednik would have been fine in my book had he been 44/59 in steals. All I care for in base stealers is that they are at, or around, 75%; else, they are hurting their ballclubs.

 

I was also never advocating bringing Figgins to the Sox. I was merely mentioning why he was a better option than Podsednik, nothing more.

[cwsfan13]

We have a thread on Carl Crawford but I really believe Gary Matthews Jr. deserves his own thread. Yes, he's going to get paid probably 20-24 mill over 3 years (maybe someone even gives him a 4 year deal) and yes this was by far his best season in his career.

 

However, look at his stats from the prior season and you'd see that this is a guy whose made great strides and is developing into his prime. This is a guy that would fit in beautifully in the 2 spot on the Southside and would also play gold glove caliber defense in CF.

 

Now I realize we have a lot of salary comitted and I'm not necessarily saying this is a signing I'd make, but I'd once again say we shouldn't acquire someone because we have money going to a ton of our pitchers or other guys. I stick to my guns that if I were in charge Crawford would be in Chicago (especially if all it took was McCarthy) and that Thome would be packing his bags elsewhere and we'd be freeing up salary that way (in addition to probably moving a starter for prospects). That would open up the flood-gates to make a push at Pierre/Matthews Jr/Figgins to join Crawford and team up to form one of the premiere 1-2 bunches in baseball (the type of 1-2 punch a manager like Ozzie would gush over).

 

Its also the type of 1-2 punch that would be very affordable considering Crawford's contract. Yes, we'd lose Thome from our lineup and yes it would make our lineup very right handed dominante, but lets also remember that a right handed dominated lineup did quite the job in the 05 playoffs and this lineup would be superior to that one in every way, shape or form.

 

The Thome deal would give the team some top top notch pitching prospects and payroll flexibility to make a move and obviously we'd have to find a DH. Well thats where a lefty bat fits in and that could even be a guy like Sweeney (if we want to stay cheap) who would obviously get tons of time in the OF as well. Or Mack could get some of that DH time or they could try and pick up that DH in the Thome deal.

 

Now you have a lineup consisting of:

Figgins or Sarge or Pierre

Crawford

Dye

Konerko

AJP

Crede

DH (Or if we get a better DH, you flop him with AJP)

Iguchi

Uribe

 

The rotation would currently consist of our remaining 5 (as no starters have been dealt) and Thome salary has pretty much gone to Crawford and the other outfielder. So now you ask how does that really help the team?

 

Well we now have Brian Anderson, top prospetcs from the Thome trade (in fact Figgins and a couple top prospects could probably be a fair deal w/LAA), and front of the rotation starters who we can deal. Possibly Josh Fields as well (depending on where the Sox stand with Crede). I'd like to think that with that the club would have the flexibility to move one of our starters for a major league ready young starter or we could also have the chips to go get a Jake Peavy or another young starter to enter into our rotation (if we deem it necessary).

 

Basically we overhall the offense w/speed(it still has power), improve the defense, rebuild the farm system (through the Thome trade and potentially through a deal of a Garcia or someone else) and still throw out one of the best rotations in baseball.

 

Yes, we'd have to re-sign some of these guys in 08 but we now know that the club has prospects to get other starters (or these guys could develop on there own) and quite frankly if Buehrle or Garcia walk the club has money thats freed up which they could than spend on finding another starter to come in (or money that we can add via trade and a prospect or two to get that starter).

 

Basically put I don't worry that much about losing Garcia/Buehrle because Kenny would have all the chips in place to find new guys to enter that rotation when the time comes while still being a potentially dominant team in 07 (and in the future).

 

In the end we could be rolling out a much more balanced lineup, a strong pitching staff (obviously Kenny would have to find a way to add a reliever), and a farm system in which Kenny can develop from or trade from.

 

 

I have to disagree with you on Brandon but I do agree with you on J.T. Hes a great guy but he is getting older and it would make sense to get rid of him now while we can still get alot for him .The Angels are dying for a left-handed power hitter to back-up Vlady and that would help them and we could prob. get Figgins and a reliever or possibley Santana so we get the best of both worlds :pick up an OF with speed and a reliever all in one trade .If for some reason we were able to get I.Santana in the deal well thats just too bad....So long Freddy AND Javy.

[Balta1701]

I have to disagree with you on Brandon but I do agree with you on J.T. Hes a great guy but he is getting older and it would make sense to get rid of him now while we can still get alot for him .The Angels are dying for a left-handed power hitter to back-up Vlady and that would help them and we could prob. get Figgins and a reliever or possibley Santana so we get the best of both worlds :pick up an OF with speed and a reliever all in one trade .If for some reason we were able to get I.Santana in the deal well thats just too bad....So long Freddy AND Javy.

Jim Thome also I believe has a full no-trade clause. He had to waive that clause to come to the White Sox, and he indicated he was only willing to do so in order to go to Chicago or Cleveland last year.

[santo=dorf]

QUOTE(R.Sweeney @ Nov 8, 2006 -> 04:02 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I have to disagree with you on Brandon but I do agree with you on J.T. Hes a great guy but he is getting older and it would make sense to get rid of him now while we can still get alot for him .The Angels are dying for a left-handed power hitter to back-up Vlady and that would help them and we could prob. get Figgins and a reliever or possibley Santana so we get the best of both worlds :pick up an OF with speed and a reliever all in one trade .If for some reason we were able to get I.Santana in the deal well thats just too bad....So long Freddy AND Javy.

No it wouldn't "make sense" to get rid of the second best hitter on your team (only because another guy was having a career year) just because you can get a lot for him.

 

Would you trade Scott Podsednik and Mike MacDougal for Bobby Abreu? Of course you would.

So why would you trade Jim Thome for Figgins and a reliever?

[cwsfan13]

No it wouldn't "make sense" to get rid of the second best hitter on your team (only because another guy was having a career year) just because you can get a lot for him.

 

Would you trade Scott Podsednik and Mike MacDougal for Bobby Abreu? Of course you would.

So why would you trade Jim Thome for Figgins and a reliever?

 

Well thats just a matter of opinion . Im kind of wondering how long b4 J.T. 's skills/helath start to diminish .I m not saying it will next year or the year after but sooner or later it will happen and when that time comes he wont be worth nearly as much in a trade.

 

Just hear me out .If that trade or something like it were to happen we could put J.D in the D.H. role sometimes to help keep his legs fresh and better his chances of staying healthy .Lets face it weve been lucky with him so far being in a sox uniform b/c he was injury prone before he got here .Opening up R/F would allow Kenny to get not 1 but 2 guys with speed to help put more pressure on opp. pitchers .If not another speedy player we have Sweeney who might be ready or if we find a true C/F put BA in right .

 

The only thing I dont like about the idea is now we wouldnt have much power from the left side but thats over-rated anyway b/c we won a world series without much power from lefties anyway .

 

Thing is we all have ideas but none of us have ANY idea what Kenny will get us for X-MAS this year!

[Kalapse]

The only thing I dont like about the idea is now we wouldnt have much power from the left side but thats over-rated anyway b/c we won a world series without much power from lefties anyway .

Just because the '05 Sox won a title with no left handed pop doesn't mean it's overrated it just means that team had one of the greatest pitching seasons ever recorded and thus was able to make up for a pathetic offense.

[cwsfan13]

Just because the '05 Sox won a title with no left handed pop doesn't mean it's overrated it just means that team had one of the greatest pitching seasons ever recorded and thus was able to make up for a pathetic offense.

 

Theres no guarentee Left-handed pop will win you anything .The Sox led baseball in homers and it didnt get us anywhere .I will admit that it would have been a diff. story if we had the similar pitching like in 05 .This team offensively is looking alot like the early 2000 teams with Maggs,Carlos,Frank and we didnt win s*** accept for that 3 and performance against Seattle .

 

All Im saying is they have to change something because the are relying on the long ball too much .If we can get a replacement for pods and add another player or two with speed it changes this line alot.

[Chisoxfn]

Technically speaking, yes we thumped homers in 05, but the team was very good at executing and could score one run when it really needed to. Its part of the reason we kicked butt offensively in the playoffs (when pitching is key, our pitching rocked, but our offense was able to scrape together runs).

 

We need some speed (I'm a huge speed backer) and obviously we need better pitching. I think we all know this years offense was superior to the prior years, that said the prior year had a more balanced offense (in the sake of 1-9) although this year had a few more superstars.

 

Obviously you give this years offense last years pitching and we are golden but defensively the team wasn't as good last year and we still did a lot of things afwul fundementally (The 05 team was superb when it came to fundementals).

 

Fix the pitching, improve the defense, add a legit speed thread (Pods is crap). And fixing the pitching could even consist of standing pat if no team makes a good offer. I'm not about to just throw Garcia out there and get nothing in return. At one point or another someone will want these guys and give us something of value and I woulnd't just make a trade to make a trade (if we can't get anything now for em, why not stick with em and let them eventually walk at the end of the season...why not if there is no legit value, you might as well enjoy having them in your rotation).

[qwerty]

First of all, I'm not entirely sure those numbers include the number of times he was picked off. I don't believe it does, and Podsednik was picked off the bases way too many times this year.

 

Secondly, yes, regarding base stealing, Podsednik would have been fine in my book had he been 44/59 in steals. All I care for in base stealers is that they are at, or around, 75%; else, they are hurting their ballclubs.

 

I was also never advocating bringing Figgins to the Sox. I was merely mentioning why he was a better option than Podsednik, nothing more.

 

http://baseballanalysts.com/archives/2006/...stolen_base.php

 

Worse yet is Scott Podsednik, whose claim to fame to date has been stealing bases. Although the Chicago White Sox left fielder stole 40 bases, he was a net liability in this department. Yep, you read that right. Podsednik was caught or picked off 21 times, resulting in a net contribution of minus 2 bases. If Podsednik's not helping you on the base paths, where is he adding value? Certainly not with the bat (.261/.330/.353).

 

Podsednik nearly running away with being the least efficent player to steal 25+ bases this season.

Edited November 9, 2006 by qwerty

[cwsfan13]

Once again, it all goes back to pitching. While the media will gush about 2005 and "SmallBall", plain, and simple, it's bulls***.

 

"White Sox Smallball"=Pitching out your ass, hit bombs. Thats what they did in 2005, worked like a charm. It all goes back to pitching, and thats really it.

 

You have the 05 staff and the 06 Offense, and you have a 115 win team.

 

Hell, if you take any of those teams from 2000-2006, and put the 05 staff with the offense, and we are in the playoffs every year.

We hit 200 HR's every year. We did it in 05, did it in 06, and will probably do it again in 07. If we pitch, the offense wont really matter...

 

I agree with ya but they played great defense,stole bases and ran the bases well too.It wasnt just homers that won games . Think of how many times a pitcher lost his composure because he was pre-occupied with guys like pods,tad and rowand on base .

 

There was alot of things that helped win the series but yes the most important was pitching and hopefully they get to where they should be in 07

 

Dont get me wrong im not a Thome hater by any meens .Just want to see faster guys on the bases to put the pressure on the pitcher .

[Balta1701]

I agree with ya but they played great defense,stole bases and ran the bases well too.It wasnt just homers that won games . Think of how many times a pitcher lost his composure because he was pre-occupied with guys like pods,tad and rowand on base .

 

There was alot of things that helped win the series but yes the most important was pitching and hopefully they get to where they should be in 07

 

Dont get me wrong im not a Thome hater by any meens .Just want to see faster guys on the bases to put the pressure on the pitcher .

Clearly, we should put Carl Everett back at DH. He was quick as all hell.

 

And anyway, Anderson learns any actual technique on how to steal bases, and he'll be more of a base stealing threat than Rowand. More raw speed, just doesn't yet know how to use it.

[cwsfan13]

Clearly, we should put Carl Everett back at DH. He was quick as all hell.

 

And anyway, Anderson learns any actual technique on how to steal bases, and he'll be more of a base stealing threat than Rowand. More raw speed, just doesn't yet know how to use it.

 

Oh come on now I didnt say anything about that prick Carl .I never did understand why the Sox traded for that idiot in the first place .Someone should have taken him to the Field Museum to see the Dinosours that never existed .

 

But you are right about Anderson .Anyone who can cover that much ground has speed .Hopefully he learned something from Raines b4 he was let go.

[Balta1701]

Oh come on now I didnt say anything about that prick Carl .I never did understand why the Sox traded for that idiot in the first place .Someone should have taken him to the Field Museum to see the Dinosours that never existed .

No, you did not say anything about Carl, but when you imply even remotely that Jim Thome had anything to do with our decrease in speed this year compared to last year, it begs the question as to what exactly Thome did.

 

The decrease in speed-runs this year was due overwhelmingly to 1 man, and 1 man alone: Scott Podsednik. Rowand was not a huge base stealing threat, although he got a few, and Iguchi was still here. If Scott had been able to steal at a 75-80% clip, like he should have, then whether or not Thome was in the lineup, he'd still have been running. The reason we had to start keeping him at first base was that he was getting thrown out too much and that was hurting Thome's RBIs, not that Thome was somehow keeping him from running.

Edited November 9, 2006 by Balta1701

[cwsfan13]

No, you did not say anything about Carl, but when you imply even remotely that Jim Thome had anything to do with our decrease in speed this year compared to last year, it begs the question as to what exactly Thome did.

 

The decrease in speed-runs this year was due overwhelmingly to 1 man, and 1 man alone: Scott Podsednik. Rowand was not a huge base stealing threat, although he got a few, and Iguchi was still here. If Scott had been able to steal at a 75-80% clip, like he should have, then whether or not Thome was in the lineup, he'd still have been running. The reason we had to start keeping him at first base was that he was getting thrown out too much and that was hurting Thome's RBIs, not that Thome was somehow keeping him from running.

 

I never said or meant to imply that Thome was reason for the reduction in speed .Im not thinking that at all .Thome drives in runs and thats why hes here .I know hes not out there for his ability to go from first to third on a ball hit to right field .

 

Hey I like the guy too but if this team can get potentially better by trading him or anyone else for that matter then Im all for it .Me personally my favorite team comes b4 favorite players.

[Vance Law]

Once again, it all goes back to pitching. While the media will gush about 2005 and "SmallBall", plain, and simple, it's bulls***.

 

"White Sox Smallball"=Pitching out your ass, hit bombs. Thats what they did in 2005, worked like a charm. It all goes back to pitching, and thats really it.

 

You have the 05 staff and the 06 Offense, and you have a 115 win team.

 

Hell, if you take any of those teams from 2000-2006, and put the 05 staff with the offense, and we are in the playoffs every year.

We hit 200 HR's every year. We did it in 05, did it in 06, and will probably do it again in 07. If we pitch, the offense wont really matter...

Thank you, Tony. Yes. It has nothing to do with the offense. You don't need to improve on the number 3 offense in baseball. The '06 offense beat the living crap out of the '05 offense (10th in AL) and they won the World Series because their pitching was tied for the best ERA in the league. In '06 the pitching gives up a full run more per game (10th best in the AL). An entire run per game worse. That's a joke. They'd probably make the playoffs even if they gave an extra .75 runs per game. They won the World Series with a crap offense and nobody said anything. Their pitching turns into s*** the next year, and everyone blames Podsednik, Uribe, and Anderson.

Edited November 9, 2006 by Vance Law

[Jordan4life_2007]

Thank you, Tony. Yes. It has nothing to do with the offense. You don't need to improve on the number 3 offense in baseball. The '06 offense beat the living crap out of the '05 offense (10th in AL) and they won the World Series because their pitching was tied for the best ERA in the league. In '06 the pitching gives up a full run more per game (10th best in the AL). An entire run per game worse. That's a joke. They'd probably make the playoffs even if they gave an extra .75 runs per game. They won the World Series with a crap offense and nobody said anything. Their pitching turns into s*** the next year, and everyone blames Podsednik, Uribe, and Anderson.

 

^^^

 

I don't think the '05 offense was crap, but it was FAR from great. It all starts with pitching.

[ptatc]

No, you did not say anything about Carl, but when you imply even remotely that Jim Thome had anything to do with our decrease in speed this year compared to last year, it begs the question as to what exactly Thome did.

 

The decrease in speed-runs this year was due overwhelmingly to 1 man, and 1 man alone: Scott Podsednik. Rowand was not a huge base stealing threat, although he got a few, and Iguchi was still here. If Scott had been able to steal at a 75-80% clip, like he should have, then whether or not Thome was in the lineup, he'd still have been running. The reason we had to start keeping him at first base was that he was getting thrown out too much and that was hurting Thome's RBIs, not that Thome was somehow keeping him from running.

 

Basically theis type of offense stopped when Pods injured his leg in Spring Training. He couldn't run or push off with the leg all year long. The Sox made a grave error in bringing him back too soon to begin the year to try to get a WS repeat and Ozzie knew they couldn't do it without him. He wasn't healthy all year and was tentative.