Rangers Have Interest in Garland

[Jordan4life_2007]

Fixed.

 

Good catch. I get sick of everyone acting like Jon has been brutal outside of 2005.

[beck72]

But I think KW has found out the value of good young pitching, because of the price you have to pay in Free Agency to actually get quality starting pitching there. Hence why he is interested in trading for Danks, Masset and possibly Hurley, because they're young, cheap and under our control for 6 seasons.

 

We don't want to be a team that basically goes all out for a World Series, and then drops back down the division because we don't have enough young players being worked into the mix, especially if you have the likes of Dye, Garcia, Iguchi and Buehrle leaving in the next off-season.

 

I think you're right on both accounts. 1] High quality, cheap young pitching is where it's at. Detroit is a fine example of the kind of turn around a team can have based almost solely on pitching, both in the pen and rotation. and 2] bringing young players into the mix for a World Series contender/ playoff team is hard. Bringing young position players into the mix is even harder though than bringing young arms. The sox are heavily dependent on their high priced veteran SP's. Bringing Bmac into the mix is step one--which leads to one veteran arm being traded The only other way to bring another young arm in as a SP is to get a top tier prospect. Broadway may be decent. But he's not a #1 or a #2.

 

I think step 2 [maybe in the 2007 offseason, or at the deadline] is to trade a high priced position position player for another high quality, top rated SP prospect.

[beck72]

Another bullpen arm the sox may want is LHP CJ Wilson. According to BA's Prospect Handbook, he's compare to Neal Cotts. And he threw 40 innings in Texas in 06. BTW, he was rated right ahead of Feldman coming into 2006

 

Also, am I the only one who would like SS Joaquin Arias included in a deal? He skipped low A ball, and hit .300 in AA last yr. though he hit .260 with a sub .300 OBP, he hit and got on base every other spot he's been

 

http://www.thebaseballcube.com/players/A/Joaquin-Arias.shtml

Edited November 19, 2006 by beck72

[Gregory Pratt]

Your response has no substance disproving my statement suggesting Garland is the lowest risk based on physical, mental and mechanical problems. Your point about Vazquez being the only pitcher to be physically fine is useless because my statement was not solely based on physical injury, but factored mental instability and pitching mechanics too.

 

Your argument lacks logic. Are you suggesting Garland's dead arm period makes him less reliable than Contreras who went on the DL and changed his arm angle to avoid pitching pain; Buehrle, who ended the year with the worst half of his career; Vazquez, who had his mechanics changed and fought and lost mental wars; or Garcia who may never get his fastball back?

 

Who says I was making an argument? I was pointing something out, nothing more, like an editor points out a missing comma or a faulty transition.

 

I'm not saying that Garland isn't the lowest injury risk.

I'm just pointing out that, hey, it isn't just the Old Men Of the Staff who wound up at some point or another hurt. I was simply pointing out that as far as physical issues, only the one who wasn't involved in 2005 went unscathed.

 

I'd imagine Garland the lowest injury risk of them all since he hasn't thrown anywhere near as many innings as the others, is fairly young, and doesn't throw particularly hard. That said, I think he's the most likely to suck next year, too, aside from McCarthy who I think is going to be a huge homerun machine.

 

But on the subject of injuries, I think McCarthy is the biggest injury risk. Dude's mechanics aren't particularly inspiring, and I imagine his career will end early as a result. Like Mark Prior. That's just my thoughts -- and I'm not saying, "DON'T PUT HIM IN THE ROTATION!" or anything because he's bound to wind up losing his career to injury, I'm just saying that's what I think will eventually happen to Young Cy Young.

[Chisoxfn]

Considering the market right now, the dumbest thing we can do is trade Garland. I'm not saying don't trade him, but you only trade him if we are getting insane value.

 

He's signed to a very affordable deal for another 2 years and it would be foolish to give up without getting a ridiculous deal. Garcia and Buehrle have to be the first to consider or Contreras (if he'd waive his no trade) because I could see Contreras breaking down.

 

I wouldn't be against Vaz either if we could get value for him. Basically I'd offer everyone but to get Garland you'd have to shoot for the moon to get him. I'm hoping thats Kenny's plan.

[Dick Allen]

Who says I was making an argument? I was pointing something out, nothing more, like an editor points out a missing comma or a faulty transition.

 

I'm not saying that Garland isn't the lowest injury risk.

I'm just pointing out that, hey, it isn't just the Old Men Of the Staff who wound up at some point or another hurt. I was simply pointing out that as far as physical issues, only the one who wasn't involved in 2005 went unscathed.

 

I'd imagine Garland the lowest injury risk of them all since he hasn't thrown anywhere near as many innings as the others, is fairly young, and doesn't throw particularly hard. That said, I think he's the most likely to suck next year, too, aside from McCarthy who I think is going to be a huge homerun machine.

 

But on the subject of injuries, I think McCarthy is the biggest injury risk. Dude's mechanics aren't particularly inspiring, and I imagine his career will end early as a result. Like Mark Prior. That's just my thoughts -- and I'm not saying, "DON'T PUT HIM IN THE ROTATION!" or anything because he's bound to wind up losing his career to injury, I'm just saying that's what I think will eventually happen to Young Cy Young.

At the beginning of last season, Widger commented that Garland was having some shoulder problems. He seemed to overcome them obviously. I do think the White Sox luck with pitcher's health has to come to an end sometime. I know Herm Schneider is considered among the best if not the best, but there is only so much a trainer can do to help prevent injury.

[ptatc]

At the beginning of last season, Widger commented that Garland was having some shoulder problems. He seemed to overcome them obviously. I do think the White Sox luck with pitcher's health has to come to an end sometime. I know Herm Schneider is considered among the best if not the best, but there is only so much a trainer can do to help prevent injury.

 

Wrong we are Gods we can do anything!!!

 

Seriously, TheSox are lucky to have young players with proven track records of health, that is the biggest factor. A good trainer and pitching coach to keep too many stressful mechanics out of the system helps is next. Third is too work the pitchers regularly with number of oitches not too many which most people focus on but also not too few. This is something the Sox do in the minors which others don't. Have the pitcher's work even if it may cost a game. Afterall, the game results in the minros is secondary to health and progressive in skills.

[southsideirish71]

http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/6185140

 

Now he is backing off...

The White Sox and Rangers are no longer set to do a Jon Garland deal, says FOXSports.com's Ken Rosenthal.

Rosenthal indicated yesterday that it was basically a done deal, but now he says the Orioles and other teams are also talking to the White Sox about Garland. Talks with the Rangers could be revisited. A deal with the Orioles would likely involve Hayden Penn and additional young pitching. Such a move would put Baltimore in prime position to finish firmly in fourth place in the AL East.

 

rotoworld basically is a bot sucking down stories. LOL

Edited November 19, 2006 by southsideirish71

[CWSGuy406]

Also, am I the only one who would like SS Joaquin Arias included in a deal? He skipped low A ball, and hit .300 in AA last yr. though he hit .260 with a sub .300 OBP, he hit and got on base every other spot he's been

 

http://www.thebaseballcube.com/players/A/Joaquin-Arias.shtml

 

Why would we want Arias? We pretty much have the same player ALREADY in our system. Oh, and Lopez wasn't lucky enough to play in the PCL, either...

[southsideirish71]

What is the story on Penn? How does he project?

 

 

I know nothing about him. I watched one game he pitched in the majors, and he got hit pretty well. I am sure Keith, Cheat or someone else that gets a better handle on other teams prospects can give more detail.

 

Hayden Penn (Orioles) – Penn made his Ottawa debut on Tuesday pitching five scoreless innings on four hits and a walk while striking out five. He was initially held back in extended spring training to gain his arm strength after being under-utilized in regular action this spring.

 

The scouting reports state he can command three pitches but his curve is the weakest of the three with a fastball in the low 90s as the working speed with the ability to add 4-5 mph on occasion, as well as a plus changeup. His time with the Orioles last season from my vantage point is that he was able to throw strikes but the command was less than advertised. He routinely caught more of the plate than he should have and paid for it. He doesn’t get wild for sure, but the fastball seemed a little flat and he’ll need to either find a bit more movement or hit his spots more precisely.

 

He’s the best upper pitching prospect with the team at present and should see the majors this summer. A solid pitching prospect, not a great one, maybe with less upside than current Orioles Erik Bedard and Daniel Cabrera.

[southsideirish71]

So basically he is a little more advanced than Broadway. Reading that description, thats who it sounds like...

 

 

If we are going to get rid of Garland, who is young and signed for a few years at below current market prices and throws a ton of innings also we need to aim in the top tier range, . We should be getting back something that has the makeup to be a number 1. What would the mets give up for Garland?

 

Maybe this was a feeler deal where KW or someone on his side leaked the info to let other teams know so the pot could be sweetened. Someone will give us something good if we are giving up Garland.

Edited November 19, 2006 by southsideirish71

[southsideirish71]

Very true. Williams might have been playing right into the media's hand,trying to sell that they are serious about dealing Garland to stir up some more interest.

 

Maybe Flash will get his Liriano, well not quite, but better than we have in the system now, pitcher soon.

[cwsfan13]

This is a bit off subject but I wonder if Casman would change his mind about Hughes and Clippard if KW dangled Garland.

[DBAHO]

Danks and Hurley are both better prospects than Penn or anything else that B-More has to offer.

 

Will be dissapointed if we don't end up trading with the Rangers.

[Flash Tizzle]

Will be dissapointed if we don't end up trading with the Rangers.

Which is why this news of talks "cooling off" is upsetting. I've had this overwhelming feeling for awhile that we're going to be VERY disappointed with the return package of one of our starters. Even though it would have defied all logic, and everyone knows if Williams were to trade for a starter he'd pay through his ass.

 

Because really, aside from New York (Mets and Yankees), Texas, and Anaheim, who realistically could provide us a reasonable package for Garland? The list is short; even shorter if you believe Anaheim won't depart with Santana unless Crede is involved.

Edited November 19, 2006 by Flash Tizzle

[fathom]

What is the story on Penn? How does he project?

 

He looked TERRIBLE when I saw him pitch for the Orioles this year.

 

This is a bit off subject but I wonder if Casman would change his mind about Hughes and Clippard if KW dangled Garland.

 

They could get someone much better than Garland if they give up Hughes.

[sircaffey]

Didn't really overpay for Freddy. Contreras was a steal from Williams. Jury is still out on Vazquez.(Young hasn't done anything yet) So I'm really not sure where that comes from, other than your doom and gloom attitude.

That I agree with. Anaheim is looking for a pitcher, but IMO a bat is the 1st priority. I dont see Garland/Garcia and a prospect enough for Santana.

 

It's not necessarily how the players KW traded turned out, it's their value at the time of the trade. The Freddy trade was considered overpaying at the time. Good for us it turned out in our favor. Vazquez trade is questionable. Contreras was a steal.

[Balta1701]

That I agree with. Anaheim is looking for a pitcher, but IMO a bat is the 1st priority. I dont see Garland/Garcia and a prospect enough for Santana.

The other side of the coin just appeared for Anaheim today; by far their best option, Soriano, just signed with the Cubs. If Carlos Lee does end up in Houston, that means that J.D. Drew is the only really remaining above average bat on the market to my eyes.

 

Which means that if Anaheim wants a bat, and they want one now...we might be an ideal trading partner on that end as well. We do have some talent at the minors that could move in, we do have people who are about to go up in cost who would fit in well in their lineup (Crede, Dye?), and they have people who would fit into our team/system very well also (Wood, Santana, etc.)

[Reddy]

It's not necessarily how the players KW traded turned out, it's their value at the time of the trade. The Freddy trade was considered overpaying at the time. Good for us it turned out in our favor. Vazquez trade is questionable. Contreras was a steal.

 

um but isnt how they turn out the ONLY thing that matters???

[Gregory Pratt]

um but isnt how they turn out the ONLY thing that matters???

 

Yes and no.

[witesoxfan]

um but isnt how they turn out the ONLY thing that matters???

 

Yes

 

KW has a propensity to "overpay" only to see the prospects turn into jack s***. If you have pretty good control of that, then it's hard to say you've overpaid for anything.

[sircaffey]

um but isnt how they turn out the ONLY thing that matters???

 

In the long-run yeah, for sure. But if you can get more for those same guys at the time of the trade, then just because they dont pan out doesnt make it a good value trade.

[Heads22]

It's hard to overpay when it's integral for you winning a World Series.....

[witesoxfan]

In the long-run yeah, for sure. But if you can get more for those same guys at the time of the trade, then just because they dont pan out doesnt make it a good value trade.

 

So you're telling me you'd rather have 3 prospects not pan out than have 1 prospect pan out?

 

Value trades mean nothing if you get nothing from them. Sure, the Ritchie trade was great for the Pirates way back when, but what the hell did they get out of it? 4 years of mediocrity out of Kip Wells, 2 years of mediocrity out of Josh Fogg, and like 2 months of s***tiness from Sean Lowe. How does that help them in the long run?

 

The only thing that matters is the end result, and I don't think there's really any need to debate that.

 

However, there are cases where you almost have to make the value trade, because the value of it all greatly outweighs what you'd get in return, and you can shortly thereafter send the value away for something that will help with a return. If the Sox were offered 5 top prospects for Freddy Garcia from the Devil Rays, and were offered David Dejesus by the Royals, you pretty much HAVE to make the deal with the DRays, and there's no real way around it. The Sox can then turn and deal those prospects for other parts, and fill their holes that much easier.

[sircaffey]

So you're telling me you'd rather have 3 prospects not pan out than have 1 prospect pan out?

 

Value trades mean nothing if you get nothing from them. Sure, the Ritchie trade was great for the Pirates way back when, but what the hell did they get out of it? 4 years of mediocrity out of Kip Wells, 2 years of mediocrity out of Josh Fogg, and like 2 months of s***tiness from Sean Lowe. How does that help them in the long run?

 

The only thing that matters is the end result, and I don't think there's really any need to debate that.

 

However, there are cases where you almost have to make the value trade, because the value of it all greatly outweighs what you'd get in return, and you can shortly thereafter send the value away for something that will help with a return. If the Sox were offered 5 top prospects for Freddy Garcia from the Devil Rays, and were offered David Dejesus by the Royals, you pretty much HAVE to make the deal with the DRays, and there's no real way around it. The Sox can then turn and deal those prospects for other parts, and fill their holes that much easier.

 

This is what I'm saying...If KW trades Sweeney for Neifi Perez and Sweeney does not pan out in the future, that doesn't make it a good trade because KW could have gotten more than Neifi Perez for Sweeney.