Freddy to Angels?

[WCSox]

For some perspective, Jon Garland's ERA didn't see the south of 5.00 until JULY 23rd!!! It then went back to 5.01 after his next start, and hit 5.16 on August 9th yet he continues to get a free pass.

 

Garland is inconsistent as hell, but he's relatively young, under contract for two more years, and doesn't struggle to hit 90 on the radar gun.

[southsideirish71]

Freddy's ERA was over 5 all year long before that last little run of his to end the season. Anybody from John Kruk to Cecil Fielder could've swiped a base off him last year. Look, I like Freddy. I really do. But he's never gonna be the same pitcher again with the decrease in his velocity. He's still better than average. He can be dominant on some nights. But the Freddy from Seattle, or even his first couple years with the Sox, is gone. If we can get a stud like Santana from him, you have to do it.

That sealed his fate as far as I'm concerned. Even if that's how you really feel, YOU NEVER ACTUALLY ADMIT IT! No way in hell Kenny/Ozzie will tolerate that bulls***. Freddy for Santana? See ya, Freddy!

 

 

How many times did ol Freddy show up his players. He would throw his hands up and pout like a child on the mound when someone made a mistake. maybe they should of been throwing their hands up when he lobbed that 86mph heater down the middle that got crushed over the fence.

[Jordan4life_2007]

Not saying it's wrong, because I have been ready to see Freddy go since June, but I don't think there has ever been more hate for a guy that won us the clinching game of the World Series.

 

Amazing what a year does.

 

What about a guy who hit the biggest HR in White Sox history in game 2 of the World Series?

 

I can't speak for anybody else, but I certainly don't "hate" Freddy Garcia. But I can't ignore what I saw last year. If you remember, I was one of the few defending Freddy at that start of last year. I kept telling everyone "Don't worry. Freddy will be fine. The velocity will return. Everything is cool." Well, it never happened. It never came close to happening. I'm not fooled by the little run Freddy went on in September when we were pretty much out of it. And as I already mentioned, I can't get over a guy admitting he doesn't get up for lesser team. Especially a guy that pitched like horses*** for much of the year.

Edited November 17, 2006 by Jordan4life_2006

[santo=dorf]

QUOTE(southsideirish71 @ Nov 17, 2006 -> 04:02 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

His clutch ass had a 5.72 ERA in August and a 5.52 ERA in July. That was the clutch part of the season when we went from being 6 games up on the wild card to running behind. He s*** the bed in the bronx when we needed him to be clutch. It was on the road, during the day against a good team. Well they were depositing dongs over the fence. We needed him to pitch well when the season was on the line, not after the entire thing was pretty much done.

 

But he decided to show up in september after pretty much the entire thing was put to bed. Thanks for showing up Mr. 86mph.

Exactly which day were the Sox dead for the playoffs? For me it was the series in Oakland, you know, the series right AFTER Freddy almost threw a perfect game.

Garland vs. Garcia

IP: 211.1 vs. 216.1

W: 18 vs. 17

L: 7 vs. 8

ERA: 4.51 vs. 4.53

WHIP: 1.36 vs. 1.28

K/BB: 2.73 vs. 2.81

OBA: .328 vs. .308

SLGA: .460 vs..444

ERA+: 103 vs. 103 (For CWSguy, Cheat and qwerty )

[Jordan4life_2007]

How many times did ol Freddy show up his players. He would throw his hands up and pout like a child on the mound when someone made a mistake. maybe they should of been throwing their hands up when he lobbed that 86mph heater down the middle that got crushed over the fence.

 

Indeed.

[WCSox]

How many times did ol Freddy show up his players. He would throw his hands up and pout like a child on the mound when someone made a mistake.

 

I only saw it once, and I don't really think that he intended to show up Tad. He needs to do a better job of controlling his body language, but I don't think that he's a bad teammate.

[Rowand44]

Exactly which day were the Sox dead for the playoffs? For me it was the series in Oakland, you know, the series right AFTER Freddy almost threw a perfect game.

Garland vs. Garcia

IP: 211.1 vs. 216.1

W: 18 vs. 17

L: 7 vs. 8

ERA: 4.51 vs. 4.53

WHIP: 1.36 vs. 1.28

K/BB: 2.73 vs. 2.81

OBA: .328 vs. .308

SLGA: .460 vs..444

ERA+: 103 vs. 103 (For CWSguy, Cheat and qwerty )

Garland wasn't good last year either, in fact he was about as inconsistant as anyone but Freddy was worse. Freddy has also lost some stuff, is older and is under contract for less years. Garland is a better pitcher to keep around than Freddy, though if we can't trade Freddy, Jon is my next choice to go.

Edited November 17, 2006 by Rowand44

[Jordan4life_2007]

I always saw Freddie Garcia take his turn on the mound, battle all the way even when he wasn't good, and come back ready to go again in 5 days. It seems like the fact the Sox didn't win in 2006 was all Freddie's fault when reading thsen posts. If one guy is to blame then who do we blame for failing to win 1960 through 2004? I think he was hurt some of last year and that was the problem. 2007 will be better for all our pitchers.

 

You're kidding, right? Every single one of our starters are to blame for the dissapointment that was 2006. Nobody is picking on Freddy. LOL. ALL of our starters took the ball every 5th day. Hip hip hooray! That doesn't excuse the fact that every single one of them underachieved.

[southsideirish71]

Exactly which day were the Sox dead for the playoffs? For me it was the series in Oakland, you know, the series right AFTER Freddy almost threw a perfect game.

Garland vs. Garcia

IP: 211.1 vs. 216.1

W: 18 vs. 17

L: 7 vs. 8

ERA: 4.51 vs. 4.53

WHIP: 1.36 vs. 1.28

K/BB: 2.73 vs. 2.81

OBA: .328 vs. .308

SLGA: .460 vs..444

ERA+: 103 vs. 103 (For CWSguy, Cheat and qwerty )

 

Where was this magical stuff during the time when we had a lead in the wild card race and when we were in a stone throw of the division. When we were in Oakland we were on life support for the season. To me the season was lost in July and August when the team crapped the bed, Including your super pitcher Freddy.

 

You can cherry pick all you want. During the 2nd part of the season, he had a crappy July and a crappy August. Which is the stretch run time for the playoffs. By the time we hit september we were on life support and needed all sorts of magic to get in. He had a nice month of september. If he decided to pitch like that in August or in July would it of helped a bit more. Probably.

[Wanne]

That's what I mean. If we were to trade for Santana, would you rather trade Ervin or McCarthy to the Rays for Crawford?

 

Which guy is projected to be better?

 

 

Guess I'm just not sold on McCarthy. Just like I'm not sold on dealing Freddy. Thing with me...I'd trade the Freddy from the first half of the season in a heartbeat. I would even consider trading the Freddy of the 2nd half of the season. Which Freddy shows up next year. I guess I still have that bitter taste about when he stated he just doesn't get up for pitching against teams like KC (which is obvious).

 

KW's damned if he does, damned if he doesn't here. He trades Mac and becomes pretty solid (which would mildly surprise me). He trades Freddy....Angels win the west (hypothetically). It's a roll of the friggin dice and you can analyze it all you want....NOBODY KNOWS. But if I was gonna bet on the more solid results for the next 3 years...Freddy. Then the money comes into play....paying Freddy a ton more for equal results would suck...but again...what's Mac proven.

 

But after all that...to answer yer question....if Freddy's gone...I deal McCarthy. I just don't have a good feel about him. He deals up too many meatballs IMO.

[Jordan4life_2007]

I only saw it once, and I don't really think that he intended to show up Tad. He needs to do a better job of controlling his body language, but I don't think that he's a bad teammate.

 

He did it in a game (I can't remember who we were playing) when Mack misplayed a ball in center.

[santo=dorf]

QUOTE(Rowand44 @ Nov 17, 2006 -> 04:16 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Garland wasn't good last year either, in fact he was about as inconsistant as anyone but Freddy was worse. Freddy has also lost some stuff, is older and is under contract for less years. Garland is a better pitcher to keep around than Freddy, though if we can't trade Freddy, Jon is my next choice to go.

I'm just trying to say Jon shouldn't be untouchable and more people should be discussing his name in trade talks.

 

I rather have a player win the big games and lose against lesser opponents. If it was the other people would be saying "Freddy couldn't stop the big teams like we needed him to, and he was only good against garbage teams."

[southsideirish71]

Garland wasn't good last year either, in fact he was about as inconsistant as anyone but Freddy was worse. Freddy has also lost some stuff, is older and is under contract for less years. Garland is a better pitcher to keep around than Freddy, though if we can't trade Freddy, Jon is my next choice to go.

 

The idea of this is not the pick on Freddy, but to prove a point. There are 3 ways you can improve your starting pitching and keep it good for a long time. Draft well, well lets go onto 2 and 3 shall we. You can pay big bucks on a the FA market for someone who is represented by Boras or you can trade for guys that have some upside. If we can replace one of our starters with Erwin. You achieve 2 things. You are making your rotation younger and cheaper. And I dont think you make it worse.

[santo=dorf]

QUOTE(southsideirish71 @ Nov 17, 2006 -> 04:18 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Where was this magical stuff during the time when we had a lead in the wild card race and when we were in a stone throw of the division. When we were in Oakland we were on life support for the season. To me the season was lost in July and August when the team crapped the bed, Including your super pitcher Freddy.

 

You can cherry pick all you want. During the 2nd part of the season, he had a crappy July and a crappy August. Which is the stretch run time for the playoffs. By the time we hit september we were on life support and needed all sorts of magic to get in. He had a nice month of september. If he decided to pitch like that in August or in July would it of helped a bit more. Probably.

This whole sentence is very hypocritical. I used the ENTIRE season of stats to compare Jon and Freddy. How come you're not as hard on everyone else if the whole team "crapped the bed?"

 

Like I mentioned before. If Freddy pitched like you wanted to (good in April and May) but didn't pitch well in September, you'd be using the same excuse the idiotic Thome bashers were using. " He was great in early on, but where was he in September when we needed him the most?"

 

Anybody know where we can find a pitcher who wins every game and gives the exact same results in every outing?

Edited November 17, 2006 by santo=dorf

[fathom]

Anybody know where we can find a pitcher who doesn't win every game and gives the exact same results in every outing?

 

Sure, Javier Vazquez.

[qwerty]

Well, I think they might be overpaying for a guy in his contract year, but we've seen this movie before when Kenny traded for Freddy.

 

Frankly, I think Garcia is one of the better starters in the league, and I can't blame the Angels for wanting him. I'd imagine they'd try to extend him, and my guess is that they believe he'll be back in top form next year, something I believe, too, once he's had a full offseason since he's pitched so many innings in the last two years.

 

Freddy's very undervalued, IMO, not just around the league but in his own city, too. I think the coolest thing the crowds at Comiskular did this year, though, was cheer his name in his last homestart against Seattle.

 

(Needless to say, I'd love to have him back and deal one of the other four, and probably extend him, too. Ah, if only we lived in an ideal world.)

 

Question: let's say the Sox deal Freddy for Santana.

 

Anybody got a problem dealing, oh, Garland and Uribe for Young and a couple of pitching prospects? How about Cintron and Garland? Then we'd have a rotation that looks like,

 

Buehrle

Contreras

Vazquez

Santana

McCarthy

 

Frees up money and looks good to me.

 

If we can land Santana, I think we should deal another pitcher.

 

Why the sudden change of thought?

 

Said this in august

 

''Freddy has a lot of problems. The biggest being, IMO, that his fastball is an offspeed pitch.''

 

''I wish someone would punch Javier Vazquez in his fragile face.''

 

''In a perfect world, we'd get rid of both Freddy and Javier for Mac and someone better.

Freddy, too''

 

''I'm about done with this thread. I think it's clear that I feel Freddy's a bum.''

 

''I still think Freddy Garcia is simply off steroids.''

 

''Freddy Garcia is a big fat washed up lazy pot smoker who might possibly be feeling the after-effects of steroid use.''

 

''The thing that makes me doubt that, though, is that he has hit the mid-90s in a few games this year. He can still do it sometimes, and that makes me wonder about his 'roid use. In my mind, the alternative is that he's just been getting fatter (that we can see with our own eyes) and has lost a lot of focus, and probably is hitting up too much marijuana.

 

Hell, it could be both.''

 

''Uh, in that instance, I was responding to something someone else said, which I'm sure you must've read unless you're simply following me about the board looking for Freddy Comments.

 

Why are you so upset by me musing about Freddy's drug use -- are you trying to defend Freddy's reputation, Mrs. Garcia? All I did was say that, hey, he's getting fatter, was caught with too much marijuana in his system, and has lost velocity in his fastball. Marijuana + Freddy might = why he's out of shape and throwing softer.

 

Steroids and amphetamines seem like a better fit to me, too, but I don't put it past him that, hey, drug use might be a problem for dear old Freddy.

 

And, not to play holier than thou, but I don't drink, do drugs or smoke cigarrettes, either. I don't take pain pills when I get hurt because I have a personal rule about dealing with pain (ever since I split my right index finger open on the Fourth of July in an accident a few years ago), and I don't take Tylenols, either.

What else are you sure of?''

 

''Don't put sarcastic words in my mouth, fathom. I'm sure plenty of players smoke pot. I don't see that many that have also gotten fatter, appear lazier, and have lost a lot of their talent, too.''

 

''I didn't say that heavy pot use diminished your ability, on its own. All I said was that the whole Garcia package is rotten, and coupled with the pot use there are some seriously problems.

 

And, for anyone who is saying that he's hurt, might've thrown his arm out, or simply had a "lazy" offseason, I don't think that's the case. His velocity is gone for good.''

 

I have never seen a flip flop like this in my life. I don't know how you can ever come on here and support garcia. Garcia's back to back one hitters through 8 innings had nothing to do with it i assume? Basically you have looked like a fool either way you go. I would have had more respect for you if you kept bashing him until... and even after he leaves. I suppose most people have the train of thought... what have you done for me lately

 

These are the some of the reasons soxtalk has diminished ( not a crack at the admins or mods... not like they can help it). This new (er) batch of posters just post out of their asses... hope for an arguement ( which they know they will get) and waste entire threads at a time. f***ing disgrace if you ask me. This site is ran for enjoyment of fellow sox fans and my enjoyment has run out do to some selective members.

[Gregory Pratt]

I'm quite ashamed of some of those quotes -- most of them, actually -- though I do feel that I can explain them quite well.

 

''I still think Freddy Garcia is simply off steroids.''

 

''Freddy Garcia is a big fat washed up lazy pot smoker who might possibly be feeling the after-effects of steroid use.''

 

I stopped thinking that Freddy was on steroids after I had an exchange with Nathaniel Whalen on his blog about Freddy + Steroids and it was then that it was brought to my attention that he'd pitched almost five hundred innings in the last two years. You know, I was and am aware that Freddy's a horse, but I wasn't as aware of his 2005-2004-WBC inning-totals.

 

I'd have taken back my comments long ago but I've been away.

 

I will say this, though: Freddy did get a little fat, and through some of the season gave the impression of being quite lazy (at holding runners, for one), but, I can't justify what I said in that second comment.

 

''Freddy has a lot of problems. The biggest being, IMO, that his fastball is an offspeed pitch.''

 

At the time, that was certainly true and hardly offensive, though as it came out in September through Cooper and Garcia, he'd been experiencing arm troubles (deadarm) from being overworked, and I personally think this accounts for the dip in velocity.

 

''I wish someone would punch Javier Vazquez in his fragile face.''

 

I still think he's a fragile man on the mound, though I don't feel the same way about the punching or to the extent about his fragility. Though the fact that he's fragile is about as indisputable as the fact that Mark Prior is fragile.

 

Part of my frustration with Vazquez and Garcia was that early on through the season -- and in Javier's case, up until August -- I was one of the few who defended them and I ended up feeling foolish because they'd keep burning me by proving my predictions about them wrong, and I kind of got antsy. Silly, and I don't stand by any of it, but that's what happened.

 

I often have said that I was proud of the way Freddy pitched, given his arm issues, and of the way that Javier pitched. I thought his game against NYY where he went five and gave up two and loaded the bases in almost all the innings was one of the ballsiest outings I've ever seen from a Sox pitcher.

 

''In a perfect world, we'd get rid of both Freddy and Javier for Mac and someone better.

Freddy, too''

 

''I'm about done with this thread. I think it's clear that I feel Freddy's a bum.''

 

Same as above.

 

I'm ashamed of the fickleness in those entries. It must've been the August heat.

 

''The thing that makes me doubt that, though, is that he has hit the mid-90s in a few games this year. He can still do it sometimes, and that makes me wonder about his 'roid use. In my mind, the alternative is that he's just been getting fatter (that we can see with our own eyes) and has lost a lot of focus, and probably is hitting up too much marijuana.

 

Hell, it could be both.''

 

I have never seen a flip flop like this in my life. I don't know how you can ever come on here and support garcia. Garcia's back to back one hitters through 8 innings had nothing to do with it i assume? Basically you have looked like a fool either way you go. I would have had more respect for you if you kept bashing him until... and even after he leaves. I suppose most people have the train of thought... what have you done for me lately

 

His back-to-back one-hitters had something to do with it, to be sure, if we want to have a game of Interrogation, but the thing that made me feel bad about Freddy was when I read Cooper's comments about his arm not being 100% and when I had an exchange with Whalen at the Southtown about steroids. His one-hitters, after, reminded me how much I've always enjoyed Garcia and I appreciated him more than before.

 

You can call it a flip-flop, if you'd like, though I don't necessarily think so. I take back the nastier comments, but I don't take back the fact that he probably could've stood to lose a few pounds this season (Buehrle, too, and it seems to me like he knows this cause he's said that he didn't work out well-enough this offseason).

 

If you want to judge me by it and go, "FLIPFLOP!" or whatever, feel free, because I could really carel ess. I was wrong about Garcia's attitude, and I was wrong about Garcia being lazy and not trying, and I was wrong about Garcia not being clean, and I was wrong to bash the only player whose jersey I have more than one of (black and white, respectively). I'm ashamed of it, but we all make mistakes.

[Dick Allen]

Does anyone else realize the ridiculousness of this "proposed" trade? There have been a couple of posts about how successful Freddy has been pitching in Anaheim, but then look at Santana's home numbers. Over the next 5 years, chances are Santana will win more games than Freddy and get paid a few lifetime's worth of money less, couple with the fact that Garcia could walk after 1 season, but Santana is still under the club's control for another 4 or 5. If the deal really is Santana + for Garcia, KW would have jumped at it so fast before the Angels could change their minds.

[Gregory Pratt]

Does anyone else realize the ridiculousness of this "proposed" trade? There have been a couple of posts about how successful Freddy has been pitching in Anaheim, but then look at Santana's home numbers. Over the next 5 years, chances are Santana will win more games than Freddy and get paid a few lifetime's worth of money less, couple with the fact that Garcia could walk after 1 season, but Santana is still under the club's control for another 4 or 5. If the deal really is Santana + for Garcia, KW would have jumped at it so fast before the Angels could change their minds.

 

I doubt that the Angels are offering Santana for Garcia straight up, but I wouldn't be stunned if they were willing to part with Santana for Garcia and some throw-ins.

[Dick Allen]

I doubt that the Angels are offering Santana for Garcia straight up, but I wouldn't be stunned if they were willing to part with Santana for Garcia and some throw-ins.

It would be more than throw-ins. Santana has 28 wins the last 2 seasons, and improved in just about every category last year. There is reason to believe he is just going to get better. I think DeLuca shares the same fact checker as Marriotti.

[Chisoxfn]

Does anyone else realize the ridiculousness of this "proposed" trade? There have been a couple of posts about how successful Freddy has been pitching in Anaheim, but then look at Santana's home numbers. Over the next 5 years, chances are Santana will win more games than Freddy and get paid a few lifetime's worth of money less, couple with the fact that Garcia could walk after 1 season, but Santana is still under the club's control for another 4 or 5. If the deal really is Santana + for Garcia, KW would have jumped at it so fast before the Angels could change their minds.

For whatever reason the Angels have offered Santana in a lot of trade packages. I think they want to win now and right now they really need that top of the rotation guy. Freddy has been that in the past and I (and I'm sure if the Angels made the deal they would too) think he can be it again. You put Freddy with a horse like Lackey and if they get Colon back (another potential horse, although I wouldn't count on it) mix that with Weaver and obviously they have Saunders (who looks pretty good) mixed with Escobar and thats pretty nasty (being that Sanders would replace Colon if Colon was hurt).

 

I can definately see it making sense. You can only have so many young guys in your rotation and win pennants (imo) and they will likely have Sanders/Weaver already in there. Plus the Angels can spend the money to resign Freddy if they want.

[cwsfan13]

Does anyone else realize the ridiculousness of this "proposed" trade? There have been a couple of posts about how successful Freddy has been pitching in Anaheim, but then look at Santana's home numbers. Over the next 5 years, chances are Santana will win more games than Freddy and get paid a few lifetime's worth of money less, couple with the fact that Garcia could walk after 1 season, but Santana is still under the club's control for another 4 or 5. If the deal really is Santana + for Garcia, KW would have jumped at it so fast before the Angels could change their minds.

YES. This too far out there to be real. I can only hope the only thing holding this deal up is that the Angels are trying to work out an extension with Freddy. Oh if only it were true.

[Dick Allen]

For whatever reason the Angels have offered Santana in a lot of trade packages. I think they want to win now and right now they really need that top of the rotation guy. Freddy has been that in the past and I (and I'm sure if the Angels made the deal they would too) think he can be it again. You put Freddy with a horse like Lackey and if they get Colon back (another potential horse, although I wouldn't count on it) mix that with Weaver and obviously they have Saunders (who looks pretty good) mixed with Escobar and thats pretty nasty (being that Sanders would replace Colon if Colon was hurt).

 

I can definately see it making sense. You can only have so many young guys in your rotation and win pennants (imo) and they will likely have Sanders/Weaver already in there. Plus the Angels can spend the money to resign Freddy if they want.

I don't know why you want a guy who has lost 7-8 mph off his fastball who appears not to be in the greatest of shape, who makes a lot of money and can walk after the season over a guy who will be 24 on opening day and is coming off 12 and 16 win seasons. It makes absolutely no sense to me. With Lackey and if Colon can return, they don't need a guy who admits he doesn't focus on lesser opponents. Maybe offseason rest will bring some velocity back for Garcia, but we were under the same impression with Billy Koch after he lost the same amount of velocity. His workload the season before and some mechanics were being blamed. Freddy made his numbers look a lot better than the reality last year.

[cwsfan13]

Another funny thing about this article is DeLuca says KW isnt looking for starting pitching right now but I do remember KW saying before the season ended that he would like to add a young power arm this off-season.

[Chisoxfn]

I don't know why you want a guy who has lost 7-8 mph off his fastball who appears not to be in the greatest of shape, who makes a lot of money and can walk after the season over a guy who will be 24 on opening day and is coming off 12 and 16 win seasons. It makes absolutely no sense to me. With Lackey and if Colon can return, they don't need a guy who admits he doesn't focus on lesser opponents. Maybe offseason rest will bring some velocity back for Garcia, but we were under the same impression with Billy Koch after he lost the same amount of velocity. His workload the season before and some mechanics were being blamed. Freddy made his numbers look a lot better than the reality last year.

Its quite simple, Freddy showed a plus splitter to go with already good breaking pitches and a much better feel for pitching late in the season. Mix that in with a guy who has been a 200 inning a year guy consistently, who has won big games, pitches good against contenders (historically speaking) and can absolutely dominate teams (especially when Colon will probably still have some set backs) and it makes a lot of sense, imo.

 

The Angels aren't looking to win 2 years from now, they want to develop some guys but Moreno learned one thing last year and thats that you can't develop too much so he may be telling Stoneman, get me a proven ace, and Santana is probably the closest to getting a raise so they've decided he could be expendable (for the right price).

 

And if they get Anderson (defensively they need help in CF) and a guy like Josh Fields (with us getting Figgins back, who they are apparently down on) and it makes a lot of sense to me.