Freddy to Angels?

[Dick Allen]

Its quite simple, Freddy showed a plus splitter to go with already good breaking pitches and a much better feel for pitching late in the season. Mix that in with a guy who has been a 200 inning a year guy consistently, who has won big games, pitches good against contenders (historically speaking) and can absolutely dominate teams (especially when Colon will probably still have some set backs) and it makes a lot of sense, imo.

 

The Angels aren't looking to win 2 years from now, they want to develop some guys but Moreno learned one thing last year and thats that you can't develop too much so he may be telling Stoneman, get me a proven ace, and Santana is probably the closest to getting a raise so they've decided he could be expendable (for the right price).

 

And if they get Anderson (defensively they need help in CF) and a guy like Josh Fields (with us getting Figgins back, who they are apparently down on) and it makes a lot of sense to me.

He was pitching in useless games in September when he had his success. Garcia's combined ERA for June, July and August was 5.37. Santana may be a better pitcher right now. Garcia's September success could be as fleeting as Jim Abbott's in September of 1998. The White Sox signed Abbott after the Angels released him. His junk was floating just right that in 5 starts with the White Sox, he went 5-0. The Brewers gave him a lot of money after that brilliance and he didn't make it through the next season. I don't want to suggest Garcia is at the end of his career, just that he, IMO, is done being dominant for a long stretch, and certainly can't be the ace of a staff especially if he can't bring intensity against lesser teams. He makes approximately $300,000 a start and plays for one of his closest friends. If that doesn't allow you to be intense, I just wonder what the effect of a southern California lifestyle would have on him.

[santo=dorf]

It's so funny.

 

Thome's "bad" September = not clutch when we needed him

Garcia's good September = doesn't matter because it was against garbage teams.

 

I'm not saying you're trying to have it both ways Dick, but these are common comments on Soxtalk. The Sox were still in it when Garcia nearly threw a perfecto, but that Oakland series was killer for me.

 

SSI71 thinks the season ended in August. I guess we should just throw some of Jermaine's stats out the window and not have to worry about Buehrle's end of the season struggles.

[jackie hayes]

Does anyone else realize the ridiculousness of this "proposed" trade? There have been a couple of posts about how successful Freddy has been pitching in Anaheim, but then look at Santana's home numbers. Over the next 5 years, chances are Santana will win more games than Freddy and get paid a few lifetime's worth of money less, couple with the fact that Garcia could walk after 1 season, but Santana is still under the club's control for another 4 or 5. If the deal really is Santana + for Garcia, KW would have jumped at it so fast before the Angels could change their minds.

I think a lot of people are thinking this, but...it's in the paper.

 

The only way it makes sense to me is if Crede's going, too. A couple people have mentioned that idea, but it's just speculation now, doesn't give much to talk about.

[CWSGuy406]

I'm not saying you're trying to have it both ways Dick, but these are common comments on Soxtalk. The Sox were still in it when Garcia nearly threw a perfecto, but that Oakland series was killer for me.

 

//Note to self: Six september starts are worth more than the 27 that preceded those six. Got it.

[santo=dorf]

QUOTE(CWSGuy406 @ Nov 17, 2006 -> 06:04 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

//Note to self: Six september starts are worth more than the 27 that preceded those six. Got it.

I didn't make that claim so I don't know how you drew that conclusion from my post.

 

I'm the one who has been using the entire season stats for our players. I'm not the one chopping off starts and stats to make a player look worse.

[Dick Allen]

It's so funny.

 

Thome's "bad" September = not clutch when we needed him

Garcia's good September = doesn't matter because it was against garbage teams.

 

I'm not saying you're trying to have it both ways Dick, but these are common comments on Soxtalk. The Sox were still in it when Garcia nearly threw a perfecto, but that Oakland series was killer for me.

 

SSI71 thinks the season ended in August. I guess we should just throw some of Jermaine's stats out the window and not have to worry about Buehrle's end of the season struggles.

I've been pretty consistent. I have never had a problem with Thome. A lot of people expect him to hit .800 with a homer every other AB against pitchers that hardly anyone hits. I don't care who the teams are, Garcia got hot when the Sox had virtually no chance to win, and if it was fatigue that was bothering him earlier, why would more pitching allow him to make stronger starts? Wouldn't he become more fatiqued.

[knightni]

Ooh 3 way trade maybe?

 

Angels get Garcia and Baldelli

 

D'Rays get Fields, Santana and Anderson

 

Sox get Crawford and Figgins

[jackie hayes]

Ooh 3 way trade maybe?

 

Angels get Garcia and Baldelli

 

D'Rays get Fields, Santana and Anderson

 

Sox get Crawford and Figgins

No way the DRays do that.

[knightni]

Broadway instead of Anderson then?

[Gene Honda Civic]

Broadway instead of Anderson then?

They're not ridding themselves of Baldelli and Crawford in one fell swoop.

[jackie hayes]

Broadway instead of Anderson then?

Jmho, probably not enough. Baldelli and Crawford could each get them a good package of young pitchers. It depends how highly they think of Broadway. The rumor is Baldelli to the Marlins for some of their young pitchers. Most of those (if Florida actually will give one of them up) are more valuable than Broadway. I've read stuff about 4 pitchers for Baldelli, which sounds absurd to me, but what do I know? And Santana could be had for Crawford, probably more. And Fields can't be that useful to them after getting Iwamura. Dunno, just don't see it.

 

They're not ridding themselves of Baldelli and Crawford in one fell swoop.

Yeah, and that too.

[DBAHO]

Kenny's not happy;

 

"It's sad to me that fans are being misled," Williams told the Tribune on Friday, one day after he dealt left-hander Neal Cotts to the Cubs for relievers David Aardsma and Carlos Vasquez.

 

Specifically, Williams was angry over speculation involving a proposal that would send pitcher Freddy Garcia to the Angels for 23-year-old right-hander Ervin Santana, a 16-game winner in 2006.

 

"I will say for the record it's absolutely untrue," Williams said. "And I'll answer that question because there has been so much speculated that is completely off-base. I don't want our fans fooled."

[greg775]

I cant believe so many want to deal Freddie.

Vas is the guy who sucked.

It's easy to think Santana and Brandon are the answer.

The unknown is also prettier than the known.

[GoodAsGould]

I cant believe so many want to deal Freddie.

Vas is the guy who sucked.

It's easy to think Santana and Brandon are the answer.

The unknown is also prettier than the known.

 

.... How is it that Vazquez sucked but not Freddie...

[Rowand44]

I cant believe so many want to deal Freddie.

Vas is the guy who sucked.

It's easy to think Santana and Brandon are the answer.

The unknown is also prettier than the known.

You do know that Santana was better than Garcia last season, no?

[witesoxfan]

You do know that Santana was better than Garcia last season, no?

 

that's not what Ozzie said

[Chisoxfn]

Kenny's comments made me think...don't get too excited Sox fans...the Angels aren't going to make that deal straight up.

[beck72]

Its quite simple, Freddy showed a plus splitter to go with already good breaking pitches and a much better feel for pitching late in the season. Mix that in with a guy who has been a 200 inning a year guy consistently, who has won big games, pitches good against contenders (historically speaking) and can absolutely dominate teams (especially when Colon will probably still have some set backs) and it makes a lot of sense, imo.

 

The Angels aren't looking to win 2 years from now, they want to develop some guys but Moreno learned one thing last year and thats that you can't develop too much so he may be telling Stoneman, get me a proven ace, and Santana is probably the closest to getting a raise so they've decided he could be expendable (for the right price).

 

And if they get Anderson (defensively they need help in CF) and a guy like Josh Fields (with us getting Figgins back, who they are apparently down on) and it makes a lot of sense to me.

 

Good points. I could see Freddy packaged with young guys like Fields and Anderson. That way, if Freddy leaves the Angels would still have two position players locked up for years. No way is it a straight up deal involving just those two

 

If the sox could net Santana in a Freddy deal, and the Sox worked out a deal for Danks, that would give the sox a 2007 rotation of:

Garland

Bmac

Santana

Buerhle

Contreras

 

and a possible 2008 rotation of:

Bmac

Santana

Danks

and 2 of Buerhle/ Garland/ Contreras

[which if Buerhle is re-signed, one of Jon or Jose could be traded in the 07 offseason]

[YASNY]

Kenny's comments made me think...don't get too excited Sox fans...the Angels aren't going to make that deal straight up.

 

I read the blurb 3 times before I posted it. I want to make sure I wasn't misreading it. It didn't make a whole lot of sense from the Angels standpoint, but sometimes GM's get enormed with a guy and undervalue another. So, I put it out there as it was written.

[beck72]

I read the blurb 3 times before I posted it. I want to make sure I wasn't misreading it. It didn't make a whole lot of sense from the Angels standpoint, but sometimes GM's get enormed with a guy and undervalue another. So, I put it out there as it was written.

Actually, it makes more sense than at first glance. The Angels need a guy who can give them 200+ innings, with the veterans Escobar and Colon with health concerns. That will take the pressure off their young guys Weaver and Joe Saunders.

[beck72]

Seems that Freddy to the Angels isn't happening.

 

http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sp...tesox-headlines

 

For some reason, Javy seems more likely to go with talk like this. He could get a better SP prospect like Danks, and a reliever who could help in 07. The only way the Sox might be able to get a "sure thing" SP prospect for Freddy is in a deal with the Yankees [Humberto Sanchez, if the Yanks are indeed looking to deal prospects for vets]

 

Keeping Freddy over Javy would seem to help the sox in 07, with Freddy more likely to post a sub 4.00 ERA than Javy. The sox won't re-sign both MB and Freddy, with MB more likely. Offer arb. to Freddy, and get picks for him.

 

Danks then could step into the 08 rotation, filling Freddy's spot.

 

With that in mind, I'm thinking 10 yrs of Danks, 1 yr of Freddy, + 2- 1st rd draft picks >>> 2 yrs of Javy, 10 years of a Tyler Clippard type SP acquired in a Freddy trade] and whatever prospects/ players the sox could get for him if they traded him next offseason [which may not be much, depending on how his 2007 season goes]

 

With KW's overreaction that Santana trade [which would seem to be largely in the sox favor], Freddy may not be as ready to be dealt as everyone thinks.

Edited November 18, 2006 by beck72

[GreatScott82]

yea, it wouldn't surprise me if KW waits until most of the free agent signings occur so he can maximize his return package as a desperate team will most likely overpay for one of our pitchers. For now he should concentrate on signing some relief pitchers to shore up our pen. I don't know about you guys but im still not impressed with a bullpen consisting of Ardsema, Haegar, McDougle, Jenks and Thorton. Haegar and Ardsema are not proven and we still have 1 hole to fill.

[Flash Tizzle]

yea, it wouldn't surprise me if KW waits until most of the free agent signings occur so he can maximize his return package as a desperate team will most likely overpay for one of our pitchers.

You know, I don't entirely believe this is true.

 

When various high profile FA pitchers sign, we're (likely) eliminating those teams from dealing with us. Potential trading partners will eventually become fewer and fewer.

 

I'd be more willing to offer our starters when the entire field is a possibility. Even though there remains a lot of time between now and Spring Training, Williams waits long enough and suddenly he'll become the desperate party. Everyone already knows we're willing to sell. It's a bit different dealing with 10 teams now than 5 two months from now; none of which may possess the prospects/players we may covet.

 

I'm not suggesting Williams immediately jumps upon the first offer; but honestly, we should have already traded a starter by Christmas. After that, I'll be more worried about return value than I currently am.

Edited November 18, 2006 by Flash Tizzle

[ptatc]

You know, I don't entirely believe this is true.

 

When various high profile FA pitchers sign, we're (likely) eliminating those teams from dealing with us. Potential trading partners will eventually become fewer and fewer.

 

I'd be more willing to offer our starters when the entire field is a possibility. Even though there remains a lot of time between now and Spring Training, Williams waits long enough and suddenly he'll become the desperate party. Everyone already knows we're willing to sell. It's a bit different dealing with 10 teams now than 5 two months from now; none of which may possess the prospects/players we may covet.

 

I'm not suggesting Williams immediately jumps upon the first offer; but honestly, we should have already traded a starter by Christmas. After that, I'll be more worried about return value than I currently am.

 

I agree with this and stated it another thread. KW targets players (Thome, Vazquez,Garcia) and goes out to get them. I don't kow which players those are at the moment but KW will make the trade for the players he has targeted as soon as he can. So he can spend the rest of the off season filling in the gaps that still exist afterwards.

[beck72]

You know, I don't entirely believe this is true.

 

When various high profile FA pitchers sign, we're (likely) eliminating those teams from dealing with us. Potential trading partners will eventually become fewer and fewer.

 

I'd be more willing to offer our starters when the entire field is a possibility. Even though there remains a lot of time between now and Spring Training, Williams waits long enough and suddenly he'll become the desperate party. Everyone already knows we're willing to sell. It's a bit different dealing with 10 teams now than 5 two months from now; none of which may possess the prospects/players we may covet.

 

I'm not suggesting Williams immediately jumps upon the first offer; but honestly, we should have already traded a starter by Christmas. After that, I'll be more worried about return value than I currently am.

 

Well said. Moving sooner rather than later means the sox can probably get who they want. Not to mention, the sox will have probably scouted some teams and know the farm system of some teams better than others.

 

IMO, a team like the Pirates or Nationals who have a lot of holes to fill will want to sell to the highest bidder. The sox have certain needs to fill and only the serious teams should be interested. That number won't change much. In fact it should lessen as teams sign FA's/ makes trades, etc