Freddy or Javy?

[witesoxfan]

I counted 14 bad starts last year. Thats 14 games with 4 plus earned runs which seamed to be the criteria used for Javy.

 

why thank you, that's all I was asking.

 

Every person in the White Sox rotation was mediocre as f*** this year. Everything considered, it's ridiculous trying to argue that one was better than the other.

[TLAK]

I counted 14 bad starts last year. Thats 14 games with 4 plus earned runs which seamed to be the criteria used for Javy.

I used the numbers I posted in the Daily Stats Thread.

 

Daily Stats Thread

 

I call a start bad at a 6 ERA, giving Javy 12, Buerlhe also had 12. Freddy only had 8. When the starter throws 6 ERA ball it is very difficult for his team will win. As a team White Sox were 12-40 in these bad starts, 26-17 when the starter was Meh (3-6), and 50-10 with Quality outings (3 or less).

 

The more baseball I watch the more I am convinced that most games are lost by one team rather than won by the other. Basic competent baseball, which includes catching the ball, smart pitch selection and getting runners on, over and in will beat a bunch of jazzy all-stars almost every time. A sound defense and a couple of runs are of great help to the pitcher.

 

The pitcher has to avoid dumb mistakes and keep his concentration. I think pitchers make 'errors', for example throwing a 0-2 slider to Craig f-ing Monroe, just like a fielder kicking a ball. How else to explain Javy's lousy record despite his great stuff? He finds a way to lose.

[ptatc]

I used the numbers I posted in the Daily Stats Thread.

 

Daily Stats Thread

 

I call a start bad at a 6 ERA, giving Javy 12, Buerlhe also had 12. Freddy only had 8. When the starter throws 6 ERA ball it is very difficult for his team will win. As a team White Sox were 12-40 in these bad starts, 26-17 when the starter was Meh (3-6), and 50-10 with Quality outings (3 or less).

 

The more baseball I watch the more I am convinced that most games are lost by one team rather than won by the other. Basic competent baseball, which includes catching the ball, smart pitch selection and getting runners on, over and in will beat a bunch of jazzy all-stars almost every time. A sound defense and a couple of runs are of great help to the pitcher.

 

The pitcher has to avoid dumb mistakes and keep his concentration. I think pitchers make 'errors', for example throwing a 0-2 slider to Craig f-ing Monroe, just like a fielder kicking a ball. How else to explain Javy's lousy record despite his great stuff? He finds a way to lose.

 

Great post. Quality pitching and good defense wins.

 

Here is a question that I can't find the answer to: How many times has a team with the leading HR player or a team with the most HR won the world series? Idon't believe it would be very high.

[cwsfan13]

I used the numbers I posted in the Daily Stats Thread.

 

Daily Stats Thread

 

I call a start bad at a 6 ERA, giving Javy 12, Buerlhe also had 12. Freddy only had 8. When the starter throws 6 ERA ball it is very difficult for his team will win. As a team White Sox were 12-40 in these bad starts, 26-17 when the starter was Meh (3-6), and 50-10 with Quality outings (3 or less).

 

The more baseball I watch the more I am convinced that most games are lost by one team rather than won by the other. Basic competent baseball, which includes catching the ball, smart pitch selection and getting runners on, over and in will beat a bunch of jazzy all-stars almost every time. A sound defense and a couple of runs are of great help to the pitcher.

 

The pitcher has to avoid dumb mistakes and keep his concentration. I think pitchers make 'errors', for example throwing a 0-2 slider to Craig f-ing Monroe, just like a fielder kicking a ball. How else to explain Javy's lousy record despite his great stuff? He finds a way to lose.

Your absolutely right. Thats a question alot of people would like answered. I dont know if its a lapse in concentration on executing his pitches or just not making adjustments to the hitters but he should have better #s than he does based on his stuff alone.

[TLAK]

Great post. Quality pitching and good defense wins.

 

Here is a question that I can't find the answer to: How many times has a team with the leading HR player or a team with the most HR won the world series? Idon't believe it would be very high.

Teams with the HR king who won the WS. 14 times, none since 1980.

year    team    HR    Player
1903    BOS    13    Buck Freeman
1918    BOS    11    Babe Ruth
1923    NYA    41    Babe Ruth
1927    NYA    60    Babe Ruth
1928    NYA    54    Babe Ruth
1935    DET    36    Hank Greenberg
1936    NYA    49    Lou Gehrig
1937    NYA    46    Joe DiMaggio
1956    NYA    52    Mickey Mantle
1957    ML1    44    Hank Aaron
1961    NYA    61    Roger Maris
1966    BAL    49    Frank Robinson
1971    PIT    48    Willie Stargell
1980    PHI    48    Mike Schmidt

 

WS winners who led baseball in HR. 19 of these, last in 1984.

year    team    HR
1903    BOS    48
1905    NY1    39
1927    NYA    158
1928    NYA    133
1936    NYA    182
1937    NYA    174
1938    NYA    174
1939    NYA    166
1941    NYA    151
1943    NYA    100
1944    SLN    100
1954    NY1    186
1955    BRO    201
1957    ML1    199
1961    NYA    240
1968    DET    185
1976    CIN    141
1983    BAL    168
1984    DET    187

[greg775]

Say bye to Javy; keep Freddy

[VAfan]

Last season, KW made "one trade too many." It was the Vazquez trade. He had always coveted Vazquez, and thought under Coop that we could rekindle his potential. The problem was the guy was a mental midget who consistently melted down in the 6th inning game after game after game. (Do you realize the last game he won on the year was against the Yankees when Ozzie, for the only time all year, pulled him after 5?)

 

Now the problem is that Vazquez is overvalued b/c he's locked up longer than either Buehrle or Garcia, and with contract inflation setting in at a huge level this year, it would cost us a LOT to keep both Buehrle and Garcia beyond this year, while Vazquez will remain "cheap" for the next two seasons.

 

Still, you have to win games on the field. And Freddy Garcia, for all his troubles, won 17 games last year. Only Garland won more. Contreras, our first half ace, won only 13 and had to be shut down. Buehrle won 12. Vazquez won 11, including no games down the stretch. (His last win was August 10th. He went 0-5 after that point.)

 

So, the obvious choice if we want to win next year is to trade Vazquez. Unfortunately, we aren't going to get back what we gave up to get him, even if his contract is now relatively "cheap."

[RockRaines]

Last season, KW made "one trade too many." It was the Vazquez trade. He had always coveted Vazquez, and thought under Coop that we could rekindle his potential. The problem was the guy was a mental midget who consistently melted down in the 6th inning game after game after game. (Do you realize the last game he won on the year was against the Yankees when Ozzie, for the only time all year, pulled him after 5?)

 

Now the problem is that Vazquez is overvalued b/c he's locked up longer than either Buehrle or Garcia, and with contract inflation setting in at a huge level this year, it would cost us a LOT to keep both Buehrle and Garcia beyond this year, while Vazquez will remain "cheap" for the next two seasons.

 

Still, you have to win games on the field. And Freddy Garcia, for all his troubles, won 17 games last year. Only Garland won more. Contreras, our first half ace, won only 13 and had to be shut down. Buehrle won 12. Vazquez won 11, including no games down the stretch. (His last win was August 10th. He went 0-5 after that point.)

 

So, the obvious choice if we want to win next year is to trade Vazquez. Unfortunately, we aren't going to get back what we gave up to get him, even if his contract is now relatively "cheap."

It was looking like a valid point until you used wins as a way to evaluate a pitcher.

[witesoxfan]

Last season, KW made "one trade too many." It was the Vazquez trade. He had always coveted Vazquez, and thought under Coop that we could rekindle his potential. The problem was the guy was a mental midget who consistently melted down in the 6th inning game after game after game. (Do you realize the last game he won on the year was against the Yankees when Ozzie, for the only time all year, pulled him after 5?)

 

So what did you call Jose Contreras in 2004?

[Soxbadger]

I dont understand why people expected Javy to be able to change leagues 3 times in 3 years and not have some trouble adjusting.

 

Next year he will be one of the top 3 Sox starters.

 

Also he has been very durable in his career.

[VAfan]

It was looking like a valid point until you used wins as a way to evaluate a pitcher.

 

Well, take ERA or WHIP. Freddy's ERA was basically the same as Garland's, and his WHIP was basically the same as Jose's.

 

I know it is fashionable to badmouth Garcia on this site. I think it is a mistake. Garcia is a far better pitcher than Javier Vazquez has ever been, or will ever be. Going forward, I think that will remain true. Garcia is a money pitcher who has been able to suck it up and win big games, and I don't think his arm is finished.

 

Vazquez was the mistake for this team. All promise; no performance. It really undermined the team. I'd take Chris Young alone in trade for him if Arizona would do it. Of course they won't. If the Mets would take him for Milledge, I'd do it.

[Soxbadger]

I know it is fashionable to badmouth Garcia on this site. I think it is a mistake. Garcia is a far better pitcher than Javier Vazquez has ever been

 

Its a pretty big leap to say that Garcia is a far better pitcher than Vazquez ever has been.

 

Career:

 

252 1643.2 1584 775 191 529 1202 116 71 0 103.6 1.29 .252 4.01

290 1845.2 1859 961 246 493 1602 100 105 0 101.8 1.27 .260 4.34

 

The top is Freddy, bottom Vaz.

 

What is striking about those numbers is that Vaz has less walks then Freddy with 200 more ip. Also they are a fraction different in whip, yet there is a much bigger difference in era.

 

I think this has to do with the fact Vaz never seems to get good play behind him. Many times this year Vaz gave up big innings after the Sox screwed him with defense.

 

That being said, I would not really want to trade either Freddy or Vaz. I think they are different types of pitchers who both are durable and have shown that they can pitch a full season. Im willing to give Vaz another year before selling low, so I would personally trade Count, or stand pat.

 

The only reason I defend Vaz is because its "fashionable" to blame everything on him. When I believe he pitched pretty well down the stretch.

[RockRaines]

I'd take Chris Young alone in trade for him if Arizona would do it. Of course they won't. If the Mets would take him for Milledge, I'd do it.

Once again, trying to make valid points, and going off the deep end.

[SadChiSoxFanOptimist]

Once again, trying to make valid points, and going off the deep end.

 

Did we miss something? Have you been appointed to the lead judge of postings quality control?

[Greg The Bull Luzinski]

If we could get a decent replacement, why not lose both Freddy and Javy. Imagine how many fewer times a tee ball stand would be posted on Soxtalk in 2007 if both were gone.

[Dick Allen]

Its a pretty big leap to say that Garcia is a far better pitcher than Vazquez ever has been.

 

Career:

 

252 1643.2 1584 775 191 529 1202 116 71 0 103.6 1.29 .252 4.01

290 1845.2 1859 961 246 493 1602 100 105 0 101.8 1.27 .260 4.34

 

The top is Freddy, bottom Vaz.

 

What is striking about those numbers is that Vaz has less walks then Freddy with 200 more ip. Also they are a fraction different in whip, yet there is a much bigger difference in era.

 

I think this has to do with the fact Vaz never seems to get good play behind him. Many times this year Vaz gave up big innings after the Sox screwed him with defense.

 

That being said, I would not really want to trade either Freddy or Vaz. I think they are different types of pitchers who both are durable and have shown that they can pitch a full season. Im willing to give Vaz another year before selling low, so I would personally trade Count, or stand pat.

 

The only reason I defend Vaz is because its "fashionable" to blame everything on him. When I believe he pitched pretty well down the stretch.

 

Vazquez also has spent most of his career in the NL not having to face DHs. He did pitch pretty well down the stretch, and probably deserved some more wins, however earlier in the season he got some wins when he had no business getting them. It evened out and what you got was a guy a shade under .500 with a mediocre ERA. That is eerily similar to his career stats and he's been around a long time. Personally, I'd advocate a lifetime contract for Kenny Williams if he got real crazy and traded both of them for a couple of big packages. Use the salary relief to sign Zito or Schmidt and you have your rotation intact and have replenished your system.

Edited November 21, 2006 by Dick Allen

[Gregory Pratt]

Vazquez also has spent most of his career in the NL not having to face DHs. He did pitch pretty well down the stretch, and probably deserved some more wins, however earlier in the season he got some wins when he had no business getting them. It evened out and what you got was a guy a shade under .500 with a mediocre ERA. That is eerily similar to his career stats and he's been around a long time. Personally, I'd advocate a lifetime contract for Kenny Williams if he got real crazy and traded both of them for a couple of big packages. Use the salary relief to sign Zito or Schmidt and you have your rotation intact and have replenished your system.

 

That would be my ultimate scenario but it won't happen.

 

If it does, though...

[Soxbadger]

Most of the games he won earlier in the season he also pitched well in.

 

I just think that Freddy and Javy will have as good of years as Zito and Schimdt compared to the price. Both of those guys are going to get 13mil+, probably even higher depending on how crazy it goes.

 

Javy was the 5th starter he was brought in so that they could help fix him. He was on the team for 1 season, and now everyone wants to dump him for a low price. The White Sox invested in Javy and need to see if that investment will pan off this year. They saw improvement last year as the season progressed, so hopefully he can keep that up this year.

 

As for the DH, Javy has shown he can handle the AL. He just needs to cut down on mistakes and he will be a top of the rotation starter. The Sox have shown they can fix players mentally, and the results usually show in year 2.

[ptatc]

Vazquez also has spent most of his career in the NL not having to face DHs. He did pitch pretty well down the stretch, and probably deserved some more wins, however earlier in the season he got some wins when he had no business getting them. It evened out and what you got was a guy a shade under .500 with a mediocre ERA. That is eerily similar to his career stats and he's been around a long time. Personally, I'd advocate a lifetime contract for Kenny Williams if he got real crazy and traded both of them for a couple of big packages. Use the salary relief to sign Zito or Schmidt and you have your rotation intact and have replenished your system.

 

Did you see the demands Boras has for Zito? 7-8 years at around 15-17 mil. They can stuff it for that.

[Dick Allen]

Did you see the demands Boras has for Zito? 7-8 years at around 15-17 mil. They can stuff it for that.

While I certainly wouldn't give him that kind of deal and I don't think anyone will, but I never thought Juan Pierre would get $45 million or the Walker LOOGY would get $3million-$4million a year. I think the way its going, the White Sox are going to have to overpay if they want to sign a free agent, or if they want to acquire good players and/or retain them. I do laugh that Boras says Zito isn't an injury risk. There is no such thing as a pitcher who isn't an injury risk.

[ptatc]

While I certainly wouldn't give him that kind of deal and I don't think anyone will, but I never thought Juan Pierre would get $45 million or the Walker LOOGY would get $3million-$4million a year. I think the way its going, the White Sox are going to have to overpay if they want to sign a free agent, or if they want to acquire good players and/or retain them. I do laugh that Boras says Zito isn't an injury risk. There is no such thing as a pitcher who isn't an injury risk.

 

True dat!!!

[cwsfan13]

While I certainly wouldn't give him that kind of deal and I don't think anyone will, but I never thought Juan Pierre would get $45 million or the Walker LOOGY would get $3million-$4million a year. I think the way its going, the White Sox are going to have to overpay if they want to sign a free agent, or if they want to acquire good players and/or retain them. I do laugh that Boras says Zito isn't an injury risk. There is no such thing as a pitcher who isn't an injury risk.

Damn right about the injury risk. Now s***-head Boras is Nostradomus? Thats OK b/c thanks to Boras and Zito, Sox pithers will look even better on the trade market. Where else can you go to get quality pitching for those (now cheap) salaries. Way to go Borass keep up the good work and thanks for helping us to get even better propects in return.

[witesoxfan]

Well, take ERA or WHIP. Freddy's ERA was basically the same as Garland's, and his WHIP was basically the same as Jose's.

 

I know it is fashionable to badmouth Garcia on this site. I think it is a mistake. Garcia is a far better pitcher than Javier Vazquez has ever been, or will ever be. Going forward, I think that will remain true. Garcia is a money pitcher who has been able to suck it up and win big games, and I don't think his arm is finished.

 

Vazquez was the mistake for this team. All promise; no performance. It really undermined the team. I'd take Chris Young alone in trade for him if Arizona would do it. Of course they won't. If the Mets would take him for Milledge, I'd do it.

 

Undermined the team...LOL, are you serious?

 

F*** blaming Buehrle who had an ERA north of the Navarro line in the second half

F*** blaming Garcia's 3 months of ERA north of 5.50

F*** blaming Contreras's injury for the rotation's end over end free-fall(which, looking back, was probably more important than any person has considered)

 

Last time I checked, the team was playing about .666 ball in the first half...all with Javy Vazquez blowing ass for a month and a half. Maybe the Sox tanked like a college student because because the offense went down the s***ter, the bullpen was mediocre as hell, and the rotation was bad.

 

Undermined the team...if ANYTHING undermined the team, it was Ozzie Guillen's persistence to constantly mismanage the club, never putting them in the best position to win. How are you going to score with a .300 OBP at the top of the order? How is he going to get into scoring position when he steals at a 66% clip? How are the pitcher's supposed to excel when you have a little leaguer (defensively) in CF half the time? If you can figure those out without going Ozzie on me and telling me that hemakesdafookinglineup, then you can further explain to me how Javy undermined the team. Until then, I ain't listening.

[cwsfan13]

Undermined the team...LOL, are you serious?

 

F*** blaming Buehrle who had an ERA north of the Navarro line in the second half

F*** blaming Garcia's 3 months of ERA north of 5.50

F*** blaming Contreras's injury for the rotation's end over end free-fall(which, looking back, was probably more important than any person has considered)

 

Last time I checked, the team was playing about .666 ball in the first half...all with Javy Vazquez blowing ass for a month and a half. Maybe the Sox tanked like a college student because because the offense went down the s***ter, the bullpen was mediocre as hell, and the rotation was bad.

 

Undermined the team...if ANYTHING undermined the team, it was Ozzie Guillen's persistence to constantly mismanage the club, never putting them in the best position to win. How are you going to score with a .300 OBP at the top of the order? How is he going to get into scoring position when he steals at a 66% clip? How are the pitcher's supposed to excel when you have a little leaguer (defensively) in CF half the time? If you can figure those out without going Ozzie on me and telling me that hemakesdafookinglineup, then you can further explain to me how Javy undermined the team. Until then, I ain't listening.

OUCH! Someone just woke up a sleeping giant. I agree with you man, to blame one guy for a bad season is crazy. Javy played his part no doubt but the underachieving season was a collective effort, unfortunately.

[RockRaines]

Did we miss something? Have you been appointed to the lead judge of postings quality control?

Apparently you didnt get the memo.

 

Trading a quality, underpriced pitcher for either one of those prospects straight up is retarded, end game.