UCLA Student get his monkey shocked

[sox4lifeinPA]

Middle Eastern Students Just want to have Fun.....at the library

 

There are more respectful ways to protest. File a greivance with the dean and get the campus cop fired. It doesn't surprise me that this happened. Campus cops=glorified mall cops. And this kid is just a douche. You don't own the UCLA library, if a school official asks you for your ID, regardless of how you think you've been treated, you show them the ID. This kid shouldn't get a dime and be thrown in jail for a couple weeks.

[Balta1701]

So wait, you're telling me that it's ok to repeatedly use a potentially fatal weapon in response to a person not displaying an ID?

 

They also reportedly threatened bystanders who demanded the officers' badge numbers with the taser as well.

[NorthSideSox72]

I do think its a bit intrusive for the cops to be conducting "routine ID checks" at the library. If you really want only students in there, then have them show ID on entry. Not that complicated.

 

But that said, on most college campuses, the cops are given authorities beyond those of regular street cops for the purpose of contacting and interviewing people - because the campus is private property (of sorts - depends on the college). And they are often allowed to do just that.

 

As for the taser, it seems like that was maybe a bit much, and was a piss-poor way to settle the crowd. The way I was taught, when you have an individual inciting a crowd like that, you remove them from the crowd. In this case, that would mean handcuffs and drag the kid out of the library before more students showed up. Using a weapon against him and making him look like a rag doll isn't going to have the desired effect.

 

I wouldn't call it an unreasonable thing to protest. I cannot even speculate on whether or not race was involved.

 

 

So wait, you're telling me that it's ok to repeatedly use a potentially fatal weapon in response to a person not displaying an ID?

 

They also reportedly threatened bystanders who demanded the officers' badge numbers with the taser as well.

OK, hold on. More people die while being handcuffed than with tasers or chem-weapons. Tasers are non-deadly force weapons.

 

I don't agree with the tactics either, but a taser is no more a deadly weapon that cuffs or zip-ties.

[CrimsonWeltall]

You can't really see what is happening at the beginning, so maybe he deserved the first taser, but a guy laying on the floor IN HANDCUFFS is not a threat. Pick him up and drag him out. Tasering him 5 more times is ridiculous.

[Balta1701]

I see no problem at all with the routine ID checks. They do the same thing here, the libraries are open with no ID before 5, and they do a routine ID check when the card-system kicks in.

 

But seriously, if a person doesn't have an ID, you ask them to leave a couple times, and then escort them out. You don't repeatedly tase them. There has to be some measure of proportionality here. And the officers ought to at least be trained on what situations are appropriate for making use of a weapon like that before they're permitted to carry them.

 

OK, hold on. More people die while being handcuffed than with tasers or chem-weapons. Tasers are non-deadly force weapons.

 

I don't agree with the tactics either, but a taser is no more a deadly weapon that cuffs or zip-ties.

From 2004...

Link.

Today, by the count of CBS News, 70 people have died after being TASERed, including 10 in August alone, Andrews observes. And while the company asserts every one of these victims died of something else, many critics believe the company has not done enough research to know that with certainty, Andrews adds.

 

From This year

 

Amnesty International also released a report on Tasers in March in which it recommended that law enforcement agencies cease using Tasers until the devices are studied more.

 

Dalia Hashad, director of the USA Program for Amnesty International, said the organization has documented more than 200 Taser-related deaths in the United States since June 2001.

Edited November 18, 2006 by Balta1701

[NorthSideSox72]

I see no problem at all with the routine ID checks. They do the same thing here, the libraries are open with no ID before 5, and they do a routine ID check when the card-system kicks in.

 

But seriously, if a person doesn't have an ID, you ask them to leave a couple times, and then escort them out. You don't repeatedly tase them. There has to be some measure of proportionality here. And the officers ought to at least be trained on what situations are appropriate for making use of a weapon like that before they're permitted to carry them.

I don't like the ID checks, but that's just me.

 

I am sure these officers were indeed trained on how to handle this sort of thing. But cops are humans, and some of them aren't going to learn very well. Plus, some of them will tend to get antsy in a crowd. Ideally, those types of people don't work in law enforcement, but some slip through. If the situation is reviewed and they find the taser was as unnecessary as it appears, then the officer deserves a reprimand, some unpaid leave, and some further training.

 

 

I see no problem at all with the routine ID checks. They do the same thing here, the libraries are open with no ID before 5, and they do a routine ID check when the card-system kicks in.

 

But seriously, if a person doesn't have an ID, you ask them to leave a couple times, and then escort them out. You don't repeatedly tase them. There has to be some measure of proportionality here. And the officers ought to at least be trained on what situations are appropriate for making use of a weapon like that before they're permitted to carry them.

From 2004...

Link.

From This year

 

So, since tasers have been around (the 80's to now), 70 people have died from tasers? That's a very small number. 200 in 6 years according to Amnesty is a little more, but that is about 35 a year. When you look at the millions of police encounters per year, its miniscule. Tasers are not deadly force weapons.

 

I will say though, for the record, that I never used one and never would. I personally think you take too much of a chance, with electrical or chemical weapons, of exposing some underlying health condition and endangering the subject. Just my choice. I wouldn't use them unless I or someone else was in danger.

 

And as I said, more die in simple custody - 50-100 a year perhaps:

 

None of this makes those deaths OK, or good in any way. But when you set up guidelines for police conduct, the premise needs to be that if a subject disobeys a lawful order (which this was, even if it seems petty), that they need to be able to subdue, arrest or remove that person. The method doing so needs to take all impacts into account. Dragging the kid out in handcuffs is just as likely to kill him, and MORE likely to maim him. Do you see what I mean?

[sox4lifeinPA]

I don't like the ID checks, but that's just me.

 

then don't go to school. Don't you think ID checks are in fact a protection measure to keep you safe? This isnt like wire-taps where the individual is unaware they're being kept track of. The student either was looking for a fight , in which he was definitely a threat, or he took offense because he's sensitive about his ethnicity, which he has a right to be.

 

As I said, if he was offended at their tactics, he should have taken the cops ID number and then filed a report along with anyone else who was there to witness and do twice as much damage by getting the guy fired.

 

That's not what happened and now I have a hard time feeling sorry for this kid. I am in favor of keeping the police in check, I'm not in favor of douche bag college students "making a point" through VIOLENT disobedience.

[CrimsonWeltall]

What violent disobedience did the student engage in? The only thing he was doing for most of the video was NOT standing up, which may or may not have been voluntary depending on how badly he took the taser shots.

[mr_genius]

I would have left when i realized i didn't have my id and was asked to leave... but thats just me

 

still though, the security guys could have handled it differently. maybe handcuff him and carry him out and if he attacks you or something then use the taser.

 

or call the real poice and have him arrested.

Edited November 19, 2006 by mr_genius

[NorthSideSox72]

then don't go to school. Don't you think ID checks are in fact a protection measure to keep you safe? This isnt like wire-taps where the individual is unaware they're being kept track of. The student either was looking for a fight , in which he was definitely a threat, or he took offense because he's sensitive about his ethnicity, which he has a right to be.

 

As I said, if he was offended at their tactics, he should have taken the cops ID number and then filed a report along with anyone else who was there to witness and do twice as much damage by getting the guy fired.

 

That's not what happened and now I have a hard time feeling sorry for this kid. I am in favor of keeping the police in check, I'm not in favor of douche bag college students "making a point" through VIOLENT disobedience.

Please look at my earlier post. What I said was that I don't like the "random" or "routine" checks. I'd prefer they just checked everyone's IDs upon entry. That way, its known to effect everyone the same way.

 

As for violent disobedience, I guess I didn't think this kid was violent. If he actually attacked the officers at some point, that certainly does change things. But I don't know that - do you?

 

 

or call the real poice and have him arrested.

These were the real police. Most campus departments at major universities are real PD's, have all the same authorities, and in some cases more, than that of local cops. If you read the article, it refers to them as "police", not "security". Let the campus cops handle it themselves. Otherwise, why have them there?

[mr_genius]

If you read the article, it refers to them as "police", not "security". Let the campus cops handle it themselves. Otherwise, why have them there?

 

sorrrrry, i didn't read that part in the article.

 

i still don't see why the kid was such a baby about leaving, but i guess acting like a spoiled UCLA kid doesn't mean you deserve to get tasered... or does it.... hmmmmm

Edited November 19, 2006 by mr_genius

[NorthSideSox72]

sorrrrry, i didn't see that part in the article.

 

i still don't see why the kid was such a baby about leaving, but i guess acting like a spoiled UCLA kid doesn't mean you deserve to get tasered... or does it.... hmmmmm

College kids do tend to present a... special problem for law enforcement. I've seen campus guys have to deal with a lot of their crap. Not as much of the serious stuff - more kids being snots and generally making asses of themselves, and trying to push the line. But, like I said, the cops from any department need to be better and more patient than that. As much as we jokingly said we wished we could arrest people for "stupid in public", that wasn't really an option.

[mr_genius]

College kids do tend to present a... special problem for law enforcement. I've seen campus guys have to deal with a lot of their crap. Not as much of the serious stuff - more kids being snots and generally making asses of themselves, and trying to push the line. But, like I said, the cops from any department need to be better and more patient than that. As much as we jokingly said we wished we could arrest people for "stupid in public", that wasn't really an option.

 

 

oh, totally

 

dealing with snotty college kids always testing your 'authoritay' would suck.

Edited November 19, 2006 by mr_genius

[NorthSideSox72]

oh, totally

 

dealing with snotty college kids always testing your 'authoritay' would suck.

amazingly, I have somehow managed to get the people defending the cops AND the people defending the students to disagree with me.

 

I'll just bow out of this discussion now.

[LowerCaseRepublican]

UCLA's interim chancellor, Norman Abrams, cautioned the public against jumping to conclusions before a university investigation is completed.

 

"It would be best if everyone, within and without the university, would withhold judgment pending review of the matter," Abrams said in a written statement.

 

Check and mate.

[Balta1701]

UCLA's interim chancellor, Norman Abrams, cautioned the public against jumping to conclusions before a university investigation is completed.

 

"It would be best if everyone, within and without the university, would withhold judgment pending review of the matter," Abrams said in a written statement.

 

Check and mate.

So, the other thing probably worth noting is that the UCLA library is heavily covered by cameras, not just student camera phones. So in other words, the chancellor is almost certainly releasing that statement after having seen the event, including the start of it before the student got her phone up, and probably from a couple different angles as well.

[BobDylan]

then don't go to school. Don't you think ID checks are in fact a protection measure to keep you safe? This isnt like wire-taps where the individual is unaware they're being kept track of. The student either was looking for a fight , in which he was definitely a threat, or he took offense because he's sensitive about his ethnicity, which he has a right to be.

 

As I said, if he was offended at their tactics, he should have taken the cops ID number and then filed a report along with anyone else who was there to witness and do twice as much damage by getting the guy fired.

 

That's not what happened and now I have a hard time feeling sorry for this kid. I am in favor of keeping the police in check, I'm not in favor of douche bag college students "making a point" through VIOLENT disobedience.

 

Unless I go into campus residency, my ID is never checked.

 

Word is somebody asked for badge ID's, and an officer threatened to taze him.

 

Ideally, he should have been tazed once. If he was cuffed and wouldn't get up after that, the REAL police should have been called.

[Queen Prawn]

When I was at UIC, we had to have our IDs at all times. They were not checked very often unless we were on campus late or entering the library after 6 - then we had to show it to get in.

 

Having never gone into the dorms, I do not know how often they were checked there.

[Balta1701]

When I was at UIC, we had to have our IDs at all times. They were not checked very often unless we were on campus late or entering the library after 6 - then we had to show it to get in.

 

Having never gone into the dorms, I do not know how often they were checked there.

According to the LA Times, the Taser incident happened at about 11 at night, and just as I sort of said earlier, the UCLA Library seems to be open during the day, but they close it to everyone except students at 11. The Library then has security go through and check ID's at right around 11 to ensure that the folks who are still in there are all students. So this was the 11:00 check to make sure it was only students left.

 

Also according to the LAT, he was tasered 5 times. Most of them were in response to him "Passively resisting", so he was basically going limp, and they hit him 5 times for it.

 

UCLA has enlisted a former LAPD Person to lead an independent investigation.

 

Word is somebody asked for badge ID's, and an officer threatened to taze him.

 

Ideally, he should have been tazed once. If he was cuffed and wouldn't get up after that, the REAL police should have been called.

If you watch the full Youtube/camera phone video, you can actually hear one of the officers at the end tell a person following to get away "unless you wanna be tased to".

[Rex Kickass]

I don't like the ID checks, but that's just me.

 

I am sure these officers were indeed trained on how to handle this sort of thing. But cops are humans, and some of them aren't going to learn very well. Plus, some of them will tend to get antsy in a crowd. Ideally, those types of people don't work in law enforcement, but some slip through. If the situation is reviewed and they find the taser was as unnecessary as it appears, then the officer deserves a reprimand, some unpaid leave, and some further training.

So, since tasers have been around (the 80's to now), 70 people have died from tasers? That's a very small number. 200 in 6 years according to Amnesty is a little more, but that is about 35 a year. When you look at the millions of police encounters per year, its miniscule. Tasers are not deadly force weapons.

 

I will say though, for the record, that I never used one and never would. I personally think you take too much of a chance, with electrical or chemical weapons, of exposing some underlying health condition and endangering the subject. Just my choice. I wouldn't use them unless I or someone else was in danger.

 

And as I said, more die in simple custody - 50-100 a year perhaps:

 

None of this makes those deaths OK, or good in any way. But when you set up guidelines for police conduct, the premise needs to be that if a subject disobeys a lawful order (which this was, even if it seems petty), that they need to be able to subdue, arrest or remove that person. The method doing so needs to take all impacts into account. Dragging the kid out in handcuffs is just as likely to kill him, and MORE likely to maim him. Do you see what I mean?

 

I'll go one farther. If it turns out that the cop tasered improperly, he ought to be tossed out on his taser.

[Balta1701]

I'll go one farther. If it turns out that the cop tasered improperly, he ought to be tossed out on his taser.

So, it seems that it is actually UCLA policy that it is acceptable to use a taser on a person who is only passively resisting, taking no aggressive actions, and is in no way demonstrating a threat to the officer. So in other words, the cop is probably not going to be in a huge amount of trouble, because he was following UCLA policy. UCLA however is going to have to justify that policy in court, and that's going to be pretty darn rough on them.

[knightni]

I wonder if this "cop" was tasered before they gave him the taser, so he knows how it feels? Many police departments do that to give officers perspective.

[NorthSideSox72]

I wonder if this "cop" was tasered before they gave him the taser, so he knows how it feels? Many police departments do that to give officers perspective.

Indeed, cops are usually tasered, peppered, handcuffed (forcibly and otherwise), participate in sparring of various sorts, and even in some cases struck with blunt weapons.

[sox4lifeinPA]

here's your @$#@ing Patriot Act

 

the average person doesn't yell that out during this altercation....they say "damn that really hurts...okay I'll start listening to you"

 

the kid clearly has an activist mentality and unhealthy disregard for authority. If he gets a dime it will be a huge shame.

 

I have no doubt that the cop will be on O'Reila-hanity garnering their support.

 

UCLA is serious about their library books apparently.

[Balta1701]

the average person doesn't yell that out during this altercation....they say "damn that really hurts...okay I'll start listening to you"

You seriously think that a person wouldn't scream out if they were hit with a Taser for no aggressive action in the middle of a crowd? If I was hit with one of those in a crowded room for what I felt was nothing, I'd start screaming like a madman just to get more witnesses.