Six Imams removed from flight

[YASNY]

Ah yes, the days when you could call someone a n****r. We certainly have taken a big step backwards. We didn't have to hire someone if we didn't like their religion, color. We could keep our neighborhoods from changing. Damn liberals ruining America for the white folks.

 

So what the f*** has happened to this country since June 1963 when the USSC ruled that God was no longer allowed in our schools. Within 6 months, Kennedy was murdered and Camelot came to a screeching halt. Soon to be followed by race riots ... another Kennedy murdered (Islam?) .... Dr. King murdered .... drugs .... sex ... Viet Nam escalating from an advisory level to a brutal war ... The disenfranchisement of the American public with US Military ... Kent State ... '68 Democratic convention ... The Watts riots... the sacrifice of our first born (yes, abortion ... except they don't reach the 'born' part of the equation)

 

I know some of you folks don't believe in God. But this nation WAS founded Judeo-Christian fundamental law and morals. Removing God as the backbone of this nation has sent it on a one way downward spiral into the rhetorical septic tank. But, you guys go ahead and keep leading us down the sewer. I hope you enjoy the stench as it becomes unbearably oppresive.

 

We ar so f***ed.

[Balta1701]

Wow, so the Vietnam war was directly related to lack of prayer in schools? They didn't teach me that in Public schools! Bastards! Where's my fiber-optic Jesus?

[YASNY]

Wow, so the Vietnam war was directly related to lack of prayer in schools? They didn't teach me that in Public schools! Bastards! Where's my fiber-optic Jesus?

 

It's happening right before your eyes and you can't see it.

[Texsox]

It's happening right before your eyes and you can't see it.

 

A cleaner environment, better access to schools, equality for all races and creeds, safer workplaces, better public health, universal immunizations (for example), better living for the aged, it isn't all bleak YAS.

[YASNY]

A cleaner environment, better access to schools, equality for all races and creeds, safer workplaces, better public health, universal immunizations (for example), better living for the aged, it isn't all bleak YAS.

 

Just wait, Tex. Just you wait. As the great Merle Haggard said ... It's rolling down hill like snowball headed for hell.

[Balta1701]

Just wait, Tex. Just you wait. As the great Merle Haggard said ... It's rolling down hill like snowball headed for hell.

Yes, there may be some things that are that way, but it's not because there's no public prayer in schools. We're not trapped in Iraq because there's no prayer in public schools. We're not failing in Afghanistan because there's no prayer in public schools.

 

(With the notable exception of the well known correlation between global warming and the # of pirates, which is clear evidence of the unhappiness of the Flying Spaghetti Monster)

[Soxy]

It's happening right before your eyes and you can't see it.

Why didn't faith keep us from the Civil War? Or the poverty in 1930s? Or the introduction of Birth Control (well before the 1960s)? And I can assure you abortions have been happening long before Roe vs Wade. Where was our faith when we were interring the Japanese in the Second world war? Or during all the lynchings during the reconstruction? Where was faith during the Jim Crow laws? Or when child labor was allowed? Or in the rampant discrimination of immigrants in the 19th and early 20th century? Where were our values when we exterminated the Indians?

 

We're just more aware of all the crap stuff that happens now because that is what sells papers.

[Texsox]

Why didn't faith keep us from the Civil War? Or the poverty in 1930s? Or the introduction of Birth Control (well before the 1960s)? And I can assure you abortions have been happening long before Roe vs Wade. Where was our faith when we were interring the Japanese in the Second world war? Or during all the lynchings during the reconstruction? Where was faith during the Jim Crow laws? Or when child labor was allowed? Or in the rampant discrimination of immigrants in the 19th and early 20th century? Where were our values when we exterminated the Indians?

 

We're just more aware of all the crap stuff that happens now because that is what sells papers.

 

well said.

[YASNY]

Why didn't faith keep us from the Civil War? Or the poverty in 1930s? Or the introduction of Birth Control (well before the 1960s)? And I can assure you abortions have been happening long before Roe vs Wade. Where was our faith when we were interring the Japanese in the Second world war? Or during all the lynchings during the reconstruction? Where was faith during the Jim Crow laws? Or when child labor was allowed? Or in the rampant discrimination of immigrants in the 19th and early 20th century? Where were our values when we exterminated the Indians?

 

We're just more aware of all the crap stuff that happens now because that is what sells papers.

 

The Civil War was God's way of b**** slapping us for allowing slavery and our policy toward Indians. What's birth control got to do with this? There were no LEGAL abortions happening before RvW and not anywhere near the numbers of abortions. Recontruction, and all that went wrong, was part of us still paying for our national sins. The internment of the Japanese was part of the price they had to pay for their national sins.

[sox4lifeinPA]

Why didn't faith keep us from the Civil War? Or the poverty in 1930s? Or the introduction of Birth Control (well before the 1960s)? And I can assure you abortions have been happening long before Roe vs Wade. Where was our faith when we were interring the Japanese in the Second world war? Or during all the lynchings during the reconstruction? Where was faith during the Jim Crow laws? Or when child labor was allowed? Or in the rampant discrimination of immigrants in the 19th and early 20th century? Where were our values when we exterminated the Indians?

 

We're just more aware of all the crap stuff that happens now because that is what sells papers.

 

Can I be the one to point out that each emerging generation more or less tries to champion the one issue that their parents never seemed to get right, and subsequently, there'll be things that our kids say we're "square" about (probably chicken f***ing) and tell us how we f-ed things up all along? cool.

 

Soxy, you make great examples and each one of those examples relates to a particular generation of people ready to take on an issue yet unable as they age to handle the next big issue.

 

I think at some point a generation must face the social implications of constantly "freeing" our society. Some of your examples, however, do not belong in the same column as others. Roe vs. Wade is not the same thing as Jim Crow laws. Likewise, as many would argue, same sex marriage laws are not the same things as anything you've listed above.

[Soxy]

The Civil War was God's way of b**** slapping us for allowing slavery and our policy toward Indians. What's birth control got to do with this? There were no LEGAL abortions happening before RvW and not anywhere near the numbers of abortions. Recontruction, and all that went wrong, was part of us still paying for our national sins. The internment of the Japanese was part of the price they had to pay for their national sins.

So, American citizens had to pay for Japanese citizens' sins because they were the same race? It seems like the people that are "paying the price" in all of those examples are the people who had already suffered the most. And, to be fair, isn't the retributive justice type theology much more Jewish than Christian?

 

And, ultimately, what you say doesn't address your previous concern: if we were so Godly before prayer in school was removed, why did we commit so many atrocities when God was still part of American life?

 

And I'd be interested to hear what the Jews, Gypsies, gays and intellectuals were "paying the price for" in the Holocaust. As well as what the Indians were paying for.

[sox4lifeinPA]

So, American citizens had to pay for Japanese citizens' sins because they were the same race? It seems like the people that are "paying the price" in all of those examples are the people who had already suffered the most. And, to be fair, isn't the retributive justice type theology much more Jewish than Christian?

 

And, ultimately, what you say doesn't address your previous concern: if we were so Godly before prayer in school was removed, why did we commit so many atrocities when God was still part of American life?

 

And I'd be interested to hear what the Jews, Gypsies, gays and intellectuals were "paying the price for" in the Holocaust. As well as what the Indians were paying for.

 

Christians were the first to die in the Holocaust, FWIW.

[Balta1701]

Christians were the first to die in the Holocaust, FWIW.

How exactly are you defining the Holocaust in order to come up with that statement?

Edited December 12, 2006 by Balta1701

[Soxy]

Can I be the one to point out that each emerging generation more or less tries to champion the one issue that their parents never seemed to get right, and subsequently, there'll be things that our kids say we're "square" about (probably chicken f***ing) and tell us how we f-ed things up all along? cool.

 

Soxy, you make great examples and each one of those examples relates to a particular generation of people ready to take on an issue yet unable as they age to handle the next big issue.

 

I think at some point a generation must face the social implications of constantly "freeing" our society. Some of your examples, however, do not belong in the same column as others. Roe vs. Wade is not the same thing as Jim Crow laws. Likewise, as many would argue, same sex marriage laws are not the same things as anything you've listed above.

My point isn't that we're the "greatest generation." I don't think that generation has existed yet. And, sure, some of the issues in my list were more severe than others. Ultimately my point is that even previous "devout and Christian" generations couldn't follow the examples set forth in the bible or lead particularly "godly" lives with godly policies. I don't think it's much about the role of religion in society as much as it is being willing to look at the mistakes of previous generations and trying to correct them. Simply saying, all this bad stuff is a punishment for previous wrongs doesn't do justice to the people that suffered under those wrongs. We were, I believe, given free will not only so we could choose our own paths, but so that we can guide our society into a better tomorrow. If all these bad things that happen are simply a punishment, we really have no control to make things better or to correct previous wrongs. We're simply stuck in a spiral of paying off our ancestors sins. And that doesn't seem inherently Christian to me (admittedly, I think pre-destination is a crock), we've got to move forward and the best footing we have is laid by the generations before us, but that doesn't mean we're any better than them. We should, though, have a better view than they do. And we have to have faith that the coming generations will have a better view than we do.

 

Christians were the first to die in the Holocaust, FWIW.

Sorry, I forgot the Catholics most especially. What were they being punished for? Most of the Catholics have the guilt thing down enough to punish themselves.

[YASNY]

So, American citizens had to pay for Japanese citizens' sins because they were the same race? It seems like the people that are "paying the price" in all of those examples are the people who had already suffered the most. And, to be fair, isn't the retributive justice type theology much more Jewish than Christian?

 

And, ultimately, what you say doesn't address your previous concern: if we were so Godly before prayer in school was removed, why did we commit so many atrocities when God was still part of American life?

 

And I'd be interested to hear what the Jews, Gypsies, gays and intellectuals were "paying the price for" in the Holocaust. As well as what the Indians were paying for.

 

God's will is unknown to us. However, God did promise Jacob (nee Isaac) that his seed would inherit the wealth and the gates of the world. Isaac passed that on to Joseph, who in turn passed it on to Ephriam and Manessah ... and we (the US) became the richest most powerful nation in the history of the world and England inherit the "gates of the world" promise as for a period of time, the sun never set on the British empire while they controlled "gates" like the Suez Canal and the Straights of Gibraltar (they still control Gibraltar). Whatever had to occur to make those promises come to fruition, occured (like Manifest Destiny).

 

The Jews ... it could possibly be the crucifiction? The gays ... sinners in the eyes of God. That's a no brainer. The Gypsies, I have no clue. Hitler was an evil, demented piece of s***. Ask satan.

[NorthSideSox72]

Just wait, Tex. Just you wait. As the great Merle Haggard said ... It's rolling down hill like snowball headed for hell.

I just have one thing to ask you about YAS...

 

If your theory that our eschewing of God is in parallel with the downfall of western/modern society is true... then what was up with the centuries of religiously motivated conflict throughout the world until the last couple centuries? Because right now, even if you count the current extremist actions of some muslims as religiously based (somewhat debateable), the number of people dying because of religions is still very, very small, compared to what it was. Seems to me that's a good thing. Wouldn't you agree?

[sox4lifeinPA]

How exactly are you defining the Holocaust in order to come up with that statement?

 

In the same way that gays, gypsies, etc were being taken away, most of the original protestors of the nazi regime were clergy and other outspoken christian figures. They were the first groups of people that Hitler "discarded" in order to fully implement his propaganda.

[Soxy]

In the same way that gays, gypsies, etc were being taken away, most of the original protestors of the nazi regime were clergy and other outspoken christian figures. They were the first groups of people that Hitler "discarded" in order to fully implement his propaganda.

Actually, the first thing they did was to essentially take over the protestent church in Germany. Which was basically what started Bonhoeffer and his colleagues to start their own little seminary (and which, ultimately, resulted in their own deaths near the end of the wary).

 

Some of the most chilling pictures of World War 2 (for me) are the pictures of the beautiful churches all decked out in swastikas. The Nazis didn't want to quash ALL Christianity, just those who wouldn't bend a knee to them.

[sox4lifeinPA]

We're simply stuck in a spiral of paying off our ancestors sins. And that doesn't seem inherently Christian to me

 

well, you're right, it's not. That's works mentality and not Gospel centered at all.

 

 

 

Actually, the first thing they did was to essentially take over the protestent church in Germany. Which was basically what started Bonhoeffer and his colleagues to start their own little seminary (and which, ultimately, resulted in their own deaths near the end of the wary).

 

Some of the most chilling pictures of World War 2 (for me) are the pictures of the beautiful churches all decked out in swastikas. The Nazis didn't want to quash ALL Christianity, just those who wouldn't bend a knee to them.

 

what she said.

[Soxy]

well, you're right, it's not. That's works mentality and not Gospel centered at all.

I'm not convinced even the works book (James) would argue that there's some sort of inherited sin. Obviously, there's that bit in Matthew, but I think, overall, the view of inherited sin is Old Testament. But I agree, there's really nothing in the Gospel or Pauline tradition that would argue for us paying for old sins.

[YASNY]

I just have one thing to ask you about YAS...

 

If your theory that our eschewing of God is in parallel with the downfall of western/modern society is true... then what was up with the centuries of religiously motivated conflict throughout the world until the last couple centuries? Because right now, even if you count the current extremist actions of some muslims as religiously based (somewhat debateable), the number of people dying because of religions is still very, very small, compared to what it was. Seems to me that's a good thing. Wouldn't you agree?

 

This isn't about religion. It's about God and his promises to the patriarch's ... and suddenly, I have a nagging suspician I got some names mixed up earlier .... Isaac, Isreal, Jacab ... not sure what at this point and I'm getting sleepy as can be ... but, anyway ... to the patriarch's, beginning with Abraham. The Catholic church has been, in the past, as evil and as radical as portions of Islam is today. History proves that. So, there is no way I'm taking the stance that the 'church' as it is historically referred to, has anything to do with God.

[Texsox]

YASNY,

 

Reading between the lines, I agree that as a nation we would be better off if religious attendance was a part of every life. We'll disagree when I say I respect that it can be the God of their choice. In the days after 9/11 Americans turned to Churches in huge numbers. I don't believe things are as bleak as you portray and I certainly don't doubt the resolve of the American people in the face of terrorists and evil.

[NorthSideSox72]

This isn't about religion. It's about God and his promises to the patriarch's ... and suddenly, I have a nagging suspician I got some names mixed up earlier .... Isaac, Isreal, Jacab ... not sure what at this point and I'm getting sleepy as can be ... but, anyway ... to the patriarch's, beginning with Abraham. The Catholic church has been, in the past, as evil and as radical as portions of Islam is today. History proves that. So, there is no way I'm taking the stance that the 'church' as it is historically referred to, has anything to do with God.

That explains it, thank you. And I tend to agree about the Church's past, as well as its disconnect from whatever God truly is.

[YASNY]

YASNY,

 

Reading between the lines, I agree that as a nation we would be better off if religious attendance was a part of every life. We'll disagree when I say I respect that it can be the God of their choice. In the days after 9/11 Americans turned to Churches in huge numbers. I don't believe things are as bleak as you portray and I certainly don't doubt the resolve of the American people in the face of terrorists and evil.

 

Texsox,

 

I really really hope you are right and I wrong. But, as of today, I don't see it.

[Soxy]

This isn't about religion. It's about God and his promises to the patriarch's ... and suddenly, I have a nagging suspician I got some names mixed up earlier .... Isaac, Isreal, Jacab ... not sure what at this point and I'm getting sleepy as can be ... but, anyway ... to the patriarch's, beginning with Abraham. The Catholic church has been, in the past, as evil and as radical as portions of Islam is today. History proves that. So, there is no way I'm taking the stance that the 'church' as it is historically referred to, has anything to do with God.

You got the names right. Jacob was the favorite son of Isaac who wrestled with God and got the new name.

 

But wasn't Jesus considered to be the fulfilment of those promises? Doesn't his promise reflect the new covanent that God made with us (consequently negating those previous ones)? Sort of like the Abrahamic covanent was replaced by the Davidic one (it's been a while since I took theology), but I seem to remember there being several different covanents with God and his people, each one overwriting the last. So, basically the new covanent (as celebrated in the eucharist) negates those previous contacts with God.