Six Imams removed from flight

[sox4lifeinPA]

I'm not convinced even the works book (James) would argue that there's some sort of inherited sin. Obviously, there's that bit in Matthew, but I think, overall, the view of inherited sin is Old Testament. But I agree, there's really nothing in the Gospel or Pauline tradition that would argue for us paying for old sins.

 

Certainly the idea of paying for sins isn't something we'd have to argue about. It's a done deal.

 

As far as generational sin, I think that's a real and painful thing. On a theological level, we don't have to deal with it for reasons as stated, but abuse is one of the easiest things to track. It's passed down from one parent to the next.

[Soxy]

Certainly the idea of paying for sins isn't something we'd have to argue about. It's a done deal.

 

As far as generational sin, I think that's a real and painful thing. On a theological level, we don't have to deal with it for reasons as stated, but abuse is one of the easiest things to track. It's passed down from one parent to the next.

I'm obviously not going to change your mind on this issue (or you mine), but I think the idea of having to pay for sins twice (on earth and, I'm presuming you believe in hell, so there too) is just so incredibly unjust. I just have a hard time envisioning a merciful and just god who would be so sadistic to make us pay for our own sins and those from way before our time.

[YASNY]

You got the names right. Jacob was the favorite son of Isaac who wrestled with God and got the new name.

 

But wasn't Jesus considered to be the fulfilment of those promises? Doesn't his promise reflect the new covanent that God made with us (consequently negating those previous ones)? Sort of like the Abrahamic covanent was replaced by the Davidic one (it's been a while since I took theology), but I seem to remember there being several different covanents with God and his people, each one overwriting the last. So, basically the new covanent (as celebrated in the eucharist) negates those previous contacts with God.

 

The promises God made were unconditional, and when it comes to the wealth and whatever, those were not fulfilled by Christ. God didn't put a timeframe on it, he just said it would be. Abraham's seed, if in fact we are the result of that seed ... which I believe we are, were not as numerous as the sands nor were they spread to the corners of the earth during the time of Jesus. Only in the 20th century did that occur. And it occured with the English speaking peoples of the world. U.S., Britain, Australia.

[NorthSideSox72]

The promises God made were unconditional, and when it comes to the wealth and whatever, those were not fulfilled by Christ. God didn't put a timeframe on it, he just said it would be. Abraham's seed, if in fact we are the result of that seed ... which I believe we are, were not as numerous as the sands nor were they spread to the corners of the earth during the time of Jesus. Only in the 20th century did that occur. And it occured with the English speaking peoples of the world. U.S., Britain, Australia.

Wait... you think Abraham's seed was only spread to those nations originally? That they are somehow the chosen?

[Texsox]

Texsox,

 

I really really hope you are right and I wrong. But, as of today, I don't see it.

 

Ultimately you will be correct, history has shown us that no civilization will last forever. What our downfall will be is open to debate. The kind that you envision seems far away. Mine is we continue to borrow billions and eventually we choke on our debt. The most recent example was the USSR. They spent themselves into oblivion.

[YASNY]

Wait... you think Abraham's seed was only spread to those nations originally? That they are somehow the chosen?

 

No. Abraham's seed includes the Arabic people, the Jews and the 10 lost tribes of the children of Isreal. I believe we (English speaking) are the children of Joseph ... with half of the birthrite going to Ephriam and half to Manessah. In fact, Issac adopted both of Joseph's sons after the family reunion in Egypt ... and considering the Levites (sons of Levi ... one of Joseph's sons, became the .. how can I say this ... the priests of the children of Isreal ... the fact that Issac adopted those sons of Joseph maintain the number of the tribes of Isreal at 12. This stuff is confusing, but are you following me?

[sox4lifeinPA]

I'm obviously not going to change your mind on this issue (or you mine), but I think the idea of having to pay for sins twice (on earth and, I'm presuming you believe in hell, so there too) is just so incredibly unjust. I just have a hard time envisioning a merciful and just god who would be so sadistic to make us pay for our own sins and those from way before our time.

 

you don't have to change my mind, I believe that same thing. Jesus paid the price, so we don't have to. My point about generational sin is that the price is paid eternally, unfortunately sin still has repercussions that effect in spite of that.

 

we're saying the same thing, I think.

[Soxy]

you don't have to change my mind, I believe that same thing. Jesus paid the price, so we don't have to. My point about generational sin is that the price is paid eternally, unfortunately sin still has repercussions that effect in spite of that.

 

we're saying the same thing, I think.

Huh, well, theologically, then, that's a first. . .

[sox4lifeinPA]

You got the names right. Jacob was the favorite son of Isaac who wrestled with God and got the new name.

 

But wasn't Jesus considered to be the fulfilment of those promises? Doesn't his promise reflect the new covanent that God made with us (consequently negating those previous ones)? Sort of like the Abrahamic covanent was replaced by the Davidic one (it's been a while since I took theology), but I seem to remember there being several different covanents with God and his people, each one overwriting the last. So, basically the new covanent (as celebrated in the eucharist) negates those previous contacts with God.

 

 

again, I agree.

 

Basically Judges are sent by God after Joshua takes over for moses. Each time the Israelites strayed from God, they cried out in need when they faced persecution, and a Judge was sent to deliver them from that persecution. rinse and repeat.

 

so eventually the Israelites said...no wait, we want a KING! So God said, ok...have Saul. That goes ok for a while, but Eventually, God's Spirit left Saul because Saul was a selfish man. So God selects David via Samuel and David becomes King through a chain of events. David eventually fails, because he is not THE king.

 

so a couple hundred years go by and prophets are sent to prepare the way for Jesus...and There we have it, the old testament in a nut shell.

 

Throughout all of this the most important thing is to remember that all of the Old Testament stories point to the Gospel...that is the most remarkable thing about the Bible. We are the Israelites in need of a king, but confused by our own sin.

[NorthSideSox72]

No. Abraham's seed includes the Arabic people, the Jews and the 10 lost tribes of the children of Isreal. I believe we (English speaking) are the children of Joseph ... with half of the birthrite going to Ephriam and half to Manessah. In fact, Issac adopted both of Joseph's sons after the family reunion in Egypt ... and considering the Levites (sons of Levi ... one of Joseph's sons, became the .. how can I say this ... the priests of the children of Isreal ... the fact that Issac adopted those sons of Joseph maintain the number of the tribes of Isreal at 12. This stuff is confusing, but are you following me?

Sort of, yes. Enough so for now. I am no expert on scripture, of which I have only read parts in recent years (more as a child).

[Balta1701]

In the same way that gays, gypsies, etc were being taken away, most of the original protestors of the nazi regime were clergy and other outspoken christian figures. They were the first groups of people that Hitler "discarded" in order to fully implement his propaganda.

I would disagree with that. I would say they were amongst the first, but when the NSDAP came originally to power in Germany, the very first two things they smashed were the labor unions and the communists (the Reichstag fire). Once those were banned, they moved on to other things, with the first major restrictions on Jews starting in about 1935 with the Nuremberg laws. They were quite a bit more slow in moving against most of the Christian institutions, because they were much stronger in Germany.

[Rex Kickass]

Ultimately you will be correct, history has shown us that no civilization will last forever. What our downfall will be is open to debate. The kind that you envision seems far away. Mine is we continue to borrow billions and eventually we choke on our debt. The most recent example was the USSR. They spent themselves into oblivion.

 

Nope, that was caused by arming Osama Bin Laden and assisting Pinochet in Chile.

 

I would disagree with that. I would say they were amongst the first, but when the NSDAP came originally to power in Germany, the very first two things they smashed were the labor unions and the communists (the Reichstag fire). Once those were banned, they moved on to other things, with the first major restrictions on Jews starting in about 1935 with the Nuremberg laws. They were quite a bit more slow in moving against most of the Christian institutions, because they were much stronger in Germany.

 

Yes and no. They moved against labor and communists because those forces were the biggest stumbling blocks toward NSDAP power in Germany by 1933. Although the fire was in February of 1933 to help consolidate Hitler's power and enabling him to get legislating power as Chancellor... it was all about the Jews, all the time.

3-9-33

Outbreak of rioting against German Jews by members of the SA and Stahlhelm (Nationalist ex-servicemen's organization).

 

3-5-33

During the last free election in Germany, ostensibly called to obtain a vote of confidence, the Nazi party wins nearly 44 percent of the popular vote, more than twice as many votes asthe next closest political party, the Social Democrats, with 18 percent. In coalition with another right-wing party Hitler takes full control of Germany.

 

3-20-33

First concentration camp, Dachau, established.

 

3-23-33

The Law for Removing the Distress of People and Reich (commonly known as the "Enabling Act") is passed, giving the chancellor (Hitler) legislative authority.

 

4-1-33

Boycott of all Jewish shops in Germany instigated by the SA. This action was also directed against Jewish physicians and lawyers. Jewish students were forbidden to attend schools and universities.

 

4-7-33

Law "for the re-creation of civil service professionalism." Removal of many Jewish civil service employees. Exception made for front-line veterans of World War I.

 

4-26-33

Formation of the Gestapo.

 

5-10-33

Burning of books written by Jews and opponents of Nazism.

 

7-14-33

Law pertaining to the revocation of naturalization and cancellation of German citizenship. Primarily aimed at Jews naturalized since 1918 from the formerly Eastern German territories.

 

9-22-33

Reich's Culture Ministry-Law: Exclusion of Jewish writers and artists.

 

10-4-33

Editor-Law: Exclusion of Jewish editors.

Source: www.holocaustcenter.org

[Texsox]

In the past 50 years, the first place crazy dictators take over is the media. They head to the radio station, the tv station, and the newspapers.