Mark McGwire and the HOF

[greasywheels121]

[witesoxfan]

McGwire - .263/.394/.588/.982 and 583 career homers in the juiced ball era

Killebrew - .256/.376/.509/.885 and 573 career homers in the raised mound era

 

Killebrew was elected to the HoF 9 years after retirement

 

Based on numbers alone, McGwire shouldn't be a first ballot Hall of Famer. Add in the steroid controversy, and there's question that he should get in as quickly as Killebrew did.

[knightni]

McGwire can sit until Joe Morgan and Johnny Bench get off their high horses.

[Balta1701]

Mac can sit until he's willing to talk about the past.

[Whitewashed in '05]

Mac can sit until he's willing to talk about the past.

Nice.

[knightni]

Very true.

 

His past is what can get him into the Hall.

[southsider2k5]

Unfortunately, we have no real way of knowing for sure if he did anything that was actually illegal, just like the other sluggers of this era. Short of them admitting it, we will never know for sure who cheated and who didn't.

[Balta1701]

Unfortunately, we have no real way of knowing for sure if he did anything that was actually illegal, just like the other sluggers of this era. Short of them admitting it, we will never know for sure who cheated and who didn't.

Then he ought to sit down, preferably under oath, and answer questions about it. And not just about him, about his teammates as well.

 

These guys want to be rewarded for possibly tainted performances, then they ought to help MLB and the US construct a complete picture of exactly what happened, who was tainted, what they knew, what they did, and when they did it.

 

Otherwise, I hope the HOF voters use their best judgement on who was dirty and who was clean and vote that way.

[southsider2k5]

Then he ought to sit down, preferably under oath, and answer questions about it. And not just about him, about his teammates as well.

 

These guys want to be rewarded for possibly tainted performances, then they ought to help MLB and the US construct a complete picture of exactly what happened, who was tainted, what they knew, what they did, and when they did it.

 

Otherwise, I hope the HOF voters use their best judgement on who was dirty and who was clean and vote that way.

 

Why should McGwire be held to a different standard than everyone else? Are you saying we should get every single borderline HOFer from this era to testify under oath to what they did and did not do?

[Balta1701]

Why should McGwire be held to a different standard than everyone else? Are you saying we should get every single borderline HOFer from this era to testify under oath to what they did and did not do?

I would see no problem with holding them to that standard.

[southsideirish]

QUOTE(witesoxfan @ Nov 27, 2006 -> 11:26 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

McGwire - .263/.394/.588/.982 and 583 career homers in the juiced ball era

Killebrew - .256/.376/.509/.885 and 573 career homers in the raised mound era

 

Killebrew was elected to the HoF 9 years after retirement

 

Based on numbers alone, McGwire shouldn't be a first ballot Hall of Famer. Add in the steroid controversy, and there's question that he should get in as quickly as Killebrew did.

 

Anyone can skew stats to say what they want, but lets be a little more fair. Killebrew put those numbers up over 22 seasons and 2435 games. McGwire did near the same over 16 seasons and 1874 games. This is not a fair comparison do you think?

 

 

QUOTE(Balta1701 @ Nov 27, 2006 -> 11:54 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Then he ought to sit down, preferably under oath, and answer questions about it. And not just about him, about his teammates as well.

 

These guys want to be rewarded for possibly tainted performances, then they ought to help MLB and the US construct a complete picture of exactly what happened, who was tainted, what they knew, what they did, and when they did it.

 

Otherwise, I hope the HOF voters use their best judgement on who was dirty and who was clean and vote that way.

 

Why would he sit down and talk about himself or his teammates? I for one would not do that. I would definitely not sit down and give up my teammates for any reason. That is a ridiculous statement to make and a ridiculous suggestion. Anyone who has any sort of backbone would never agree to do that. And who says McGwire cares or wants to be in the hall of fame? Who says he wants to be rewarded? Did he? I have never heard him say that.

 

Get over the freaking steroid issues. It is just another period in baseball that has come and hopefully went. Just deal with the fact that in certain periods certain players had advantages and disadvantages over players in other periods. That is just the way things are. Deal with it.

[witesoxfan]

Anyone can skew stats to say what they want, but lets be a little more fair. Killebrew put those numbers up over 22 seasons and 2435 games. McGwire did near the same over 16 seasons and 1874 games. This is not a fair comparison do you think?

 

It's not as good as I thought it was initially, but it's still a fair comparison in my mind.

[Milkman delivers]

No

 

Steroids

 

That's all I need to say. And I have a feeling that's enough for a lot of the voters, too.

[longshot7]

Win if you can, lose if you must, but always cheat, cheat, cheat.

If you're not cheating, you're not trying.

 

 

Unequivocally YES to both questions. Anti-drug people get off your high horses.

[RockRaines]

Why should McGwire be held to a different standard than everyone else? Are you saying we should get every single borderline HOFer from this era to testify under oath to what they did and did not do?

Fact is, we all know he juiced. All of the players that Jose ratted out were Juicers. He shouldnt be in the Hall. Cheating in baseball is just as bad as Pete Rose betting on it IMO. At least when Rose played he gave it his all honestly.

[greasywheels121]

Win if you can, lose if you must, but always cheat, cheat, cheat.

If you're not cheating, you're not trying.

Unequivocally YES to both questions. Anti-drug people get off your high horses.

 

So much for integrity.

[ptatc]

Fact is, we all know he juiced. All of the players that Jose ratted out were Juicers. He shouldnt be in the Hall. Cheating in baseball is just as bad as Pete Rose betting on it IMO. At least when Rose played he gave it his all honestly.

 

This is the point in question. Steroids were not against the rules of baseball at the time. He DID NOT CHEAT. Everyone on this board know how I feel about steriods. They will kill you and are ethically wrong and illegal. However, it si not cheating in baseball.

 

I am torn about the decision to let him in the HOF. What he did was wrong and illegal but not cheating. This is simialr to Paul Molitor not getting in because of cocaine abuse. In my eyes it's wrong and illegal but not cheating.

 

So for now

[southsideirish]

QUOTE(witesoxfan @ Nov 27, 2006 -> 12:27 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It's not as good as I thought it was initially, but it's still a fair comparison in my mind.

 

 

 

How so? If healthy a Mark McGwire, at the pace he was at, with 600 more games played or 6 more seasons would have demolished the numbers of a Harmon Killebrew. Not a fair comparison at all.

[Gregory Pratt]

He wasn't a good hitter. Hit for power, but that's about it. Screw Mark McGwire.

[Chisoxfn]

Then he ought to sit down, preferably under oath, and answer questions about it. And not just about him, about his teammates as well.

 

These guys want to be rewarded for possibly tainted performances, then they ought to help MLB and the US construct a complete picture of exactly what happened, who was tainted, what they knew, what they did, and when they did it.

 

Otherwise, I hope the HOF voters use their best judgement on who was dirty and who was clean and vote that way.

I wouldn't rat out teammates or discuss things like that either. Baseball is a fraternity and as much as some players probably hate guys that do roids, they aren't going to go around calling tons of people out over it. I know i wouldn't if i were in the locker room.

 

Yes, he's a 1st ballot HOFer.

[whitesoxfan101]

It's fine if Mark doesn't want to talk about the past, that's his right. But as a result, it's also our right as baseball fans to not let this scumbag into the HOF if he wants to play that way. I WOULD HOPE the writers feel the same way.

[Gregory Pratt]

Dude was a weak hitter, overall, but for the homeruns, and he's an HOFer? Dude only excels in one phase of the game, through questionable methods, and he belongs in the Hall? Why doesn't Tim Raines belong, a man so so great at stealing bases but not THAT great at something else?

 

I don't think McGwire is a first-ballot HOFer when you factor in the suspicions.

[southsider2k5]

This is the point in question. Steroids were not against the rules of baseball at the time. He DID NOT CHEAT. Everyone on this board know how I feel about steriods. They will kill you and are ethically wrong and illegal. However, it si not cheating in baseball.

 

I am torn about the decision to let him in the HOF. What he did was wrong and illegal but not cheating. This is simialr to Paul Molitor not getting in because of cocaine abuse. In my eyes it's wrong and illegal but not cheating.

 

So for now

 

That is exactly how I feel about it. Baseball screwed up by not getting testicles and actually having a drug policy. Even if Mark McGwire came clean in a tear filled rant on Oprah, he did not actually do anything wrong as far as MLB was concerned at the time. Now if you want to play the illegal card, that opens a whole nother ball of wax. If you want to keep people out of the Hall for steriods, preMLB testing, you have an obiligation to also keep out every single other person who did something illegal during their time in MLB, such as the drunk drivers, the wifebeaters, the druggies, the tax frauders, the fighters, etc.

 

MLB screwed this up, and now they get to go onto the national stage and try to justify their screw ups.

 

Dude was a weak hitter, overall, but for the homeruns, and he's an HOFer? Dude only excels in one phase of the game, through questionable methods, and he belongs in the Hall? Why doesn't Tim Raines belong, a man so so great at stealing bases but not THAT great at something else?

 

I don't think McGwire is a first-ballot HOFer when you factor in the suspicions.

 

Tim Raines should be a first ballot HOFer. There is no doubt in my mind. He comes up for vote on the 2008 ballot.

[whitesoxfan101]

That is exactly how I feel about it. Baseball screwed up by not getting testicles and actually having a drug policy. Even if Mark McGwire came clean in a tear filled rant on Oprah, he did not actually do anything wrong as far as MLB was concerned at the time. Now if you want to play the illegal card, that opens a whole nother ball of wax. If you want to keep people out of the Hall for steriods, preMLB testing, you have an obiligation to also keep out every single other person who did something illegal during their time in MLB, such as the drunk drivers, the wifebeaters, the druggies, the tax frauders, the fighters, etc.

 

The sad part is, your probably right in all honesty. They should ban Bug Selig for life, he's done a lot worse to the game than Shoeless Joe ever did.

[aboz56]

Survey shows McGwire won't reach Hall.

 

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15924940/

 

Justice in my mind for one of the biggest frauds ever in baseball. Get this guy out of here, I can't stand him and his "I'm not here to talk about the past" bulls***.