Mark McGwire and the HOF

[ptatc]

The sad part is, your probably right in all honesty. They should ban Bug Selig for life, he's done a lot worse to the game than Shoeless Joe ever did.

 

Don't go so as to blame only him. The players would've probably considered going on strike if he tried to impose a steroid policy. Remember when the white sox wanted to all skip the test the first year to make sure enough players failed? Remeber when the union told Sosa to not take the test theat some reporters challenged him to take? This couldvery well led to a strike. They are all to blame not just the ownership. They all benefitted and they are all to blame.

[longshot7]

This is the point in question. Steroids were not against the rules of baseball at the time. He DID NOT CHEAT. Everyone on this board know how I feel about steriods. They will kill you and are ethically wrong and illegal. However, it si not cheating in baseball.

 

I am torn about the decision to let him in the HOF. What he did was wrong and illegal but not cheating. This is simialr to Paul Molitor not getting in because of cocaine abuse. In my eyes it's wrong and illegal but not cheating.

 

So for now

 

Who cares if it's cheating? Cheating is part of the game. If HOF players were penalized for stealing signs, doing reds & greens, spitballs, etc, we'd have no players left.

 

Everyone is so goddamned self-righteous. Like one of us has never cheated on a test in high school or gone over a speed limit. Give me a break.

 

Win or Die Trying - includes cheating.

[GreatScott82]

If McGuire gets in the HOF at ALL it would be a tradety. He played in era of tainted baseball. He pretty much openly admitted to juicing. I hope for the integrety of baseball he does not get in. IMO if McGuire gets in, Shoeless Joe BETTER get in. As well as Pete Rose. At least Rose and Jackson didn't enhance there body by taking substances, all natural ability there. With McGuire he made sure he was the incredible hulk at the plate. Now thats just not fair.

[Gregory Pratt]

I too believe that Tim Raines is a first-ballot HOFer.

[ptatc]

Who cares if it's cheating? Cheating is part of the game. If HOF players were penalized for stealing signs, doing reds & greens, spitballs, etc, we'd have no players left.

 

Everyone is so goddamned self-righteous. Like one of us has never cheated on a test in high school or gone over a speed limit. Give me a break.

 

Win or Die Trying - includes cheating.

 

And if you get caught you should pay the penalty.

 

If you truly believe that cheating is fine and it's win at all costs then you are part of the problem. This is that attitude that breeds the use of steriods.

 

Who cares if it's cheating? Cheating is part of the game. If HOF players were penalized for stealing signs, doing reds & greens, spitballs, etc, we'd have no players left.

 

Everyone is so goddamned self-righteous. Like one of us has never cheated on a test in high school or gone over a speed limit. Give me a break.

 

Win or Die Trying - includes cheating.

 

These things were not against the rules and weren't cheating. What is a red? If know the greenies but don't know the red.

[Steff]

I see having a differing opinion still get's some all pissy and attacked around here...

 

 

:rolleyes

[ptatc]

I see having a differing opinion still get's some all pissy and attacked around here...

:rolleyes

 

Steroids does seem to be one of those polarizing issues

[Balta1701]

Link.

So, Mark McGwire is officially on the ballot for the Hall of Fame.

 

Good for him. Surely it was a coincidence that it happened just before his new book comes out. You know the one. It's been all over the news.

 

His publisher says she sees it as a confession. And with a title like "If I Did It," it surely sounds like one.

 

Anyway, I was lucky enough to get an advance copy. You wouldn't believe the stories he tells.

 

First of all, he never really liked Sammy Sosa. Hard to when the guy kept pounding his chest like he was trying to defibrilate himself, and took a victory lap every time he went to the outfield.

 

Then all of a sudden he can't understand English when we went to Congress together?

 

And the whole huggy-kissy thing with the family of Roger Maris? Turns out that was put into the script by the folks at Major League Baseball.

 

Made up, just like those home run numbers in the record books.

 

Remember the scene in the locker room when they brought McGwire the bat Maris used to hit No. 61 just before he went out and hit No. 62? Hard to believe that kind of dialogue made its way off a Hollywood set and onto the sports pages.

 

"I touched it," McGwire said of the bat, fighting back tears. "I touched it to my heart."

 

Hmmm. Wonder why McGwire didn't try that one when he went before Congress. Those guys are always saps for a tender story, and the one McGwire tried to sell them about moving forward and forgetting the past didn't exactly work.

 

OK, so there really isn't a book. Turns out O.J. Simpson already had the same title for his tell-all, and there's no sense confusing this with, well, whatever O.J. actually did.

 

People are confused enough as it is.

 

Confused about just what McGwire did to turn himself into a gargantuan freak of a player and hit 70 home runs in one season. Was it the Andro? Steroids? Chocolate milk and donuts?

 

They're confused about why McGwire went before a House committee and refused to talk about what he might have done to hit so many home runs. Mobsters are supposed to take the Fifth, not baseball players.

 

They're confused about why he hasn't followed up on his pledge to becoming a public spokesman for baseball to warn kids of the dangers of drugs. The incredibly shrinking McGwire is harder to find these days than a $1.50 gallon of gasoline.

 

Finally, they're confused about how he can be on the ballot for the Hall of Fame when Maris himself was never inducted.

 

Luckily, the people who vote for the Hall of Fame aren't so confused. They're the 575 or so members of the Baseball Writers' Association of America who are charged with protecting the legacy of the game, and they take their responsibilities quite seriously.

 

That's why McGwire won't likely be joining Cal Ripken Jr. and Tony Gwynn when this year's class is enshrined.

 

True, the same writers gave McGwire a pass by leading the cheerleading when really Big Mac and Sammy were slugging all those home runs back in 1998. Though something was clearly amiss then, few writers questioned it, because they were as anxious as everyone in baseball to erase the taint of the 1994 strike that canceled the World Series.

 

But they've got a chance to make amends now. And thanks to Jose Canseco, Jason Giambi, Rafael Palmeiro, Barry Bonds and everyone who knows full well what BALCO stands for, they also understand now what happened the day baseball sold its soul to win back its fans.

 

Bud Selig and his millionaire owners could have already taken care of this by erasing the home run marks set by both McGwire and Bonds and restoring Maris as the single-season home run king. But they were too busy getting taxpayers to build them new stadiums to worry about it.

 

So the writers will try to help right a wrong. And, judging from a survey conducted by The Associated Press, they plan to do just that.

 

The AP contacted some 150 baseball writers, and 125 responded -- about 20 percent of eligible voters, a lot better sampling than you'll get in any exit poll. Among those who had made up their minds, the vote was 3-1 against Big Mac ever seeing the inside of Cooperstown without buying a ticket.

 

All had their reasons. I particularly liked the one from Hal McCoy of the Dayton Daily News.

 

"He doesn't want to talk about the past?" McCoy said. "Then I don't want to consider his past."

 

That alone is good enough for me.

 

McGwire became a very wealthy man playing baseball, and it wasn't just because some team owner gave him his millions. That money came from fans who bought tickets, fans who scraped together enough money to bring their kids to the game to watch him play.

 

McGwire owes those fans something for their money.

 

If he didn't do anything wrong, he should have taken the opportunity while under oath before Congress to say so. He didn't, so now those fans and writers simply -- and rightfully so -- assume the worst.

 

McGwire may still some day go into the Hall of Fame. But it's not going to happen until he comes clean -- really clean.

 

Something tells me that just saying "If I Did It" won't be good enough.

[Gregory Pratt]

Mark McGwire May 1992

Reportedly Used: Steroids (Winstrol, Testosterone, Equipose)

The Story: During an FBI investigation codenamed ‘Operation Equine’ in 1992, officers turned up steroid dealer, Curtis Wenslaff. Wenzlaff's training-session notes show he put McGwire on a mix of Winstrol V, testosterone and Equipoise. In Juiced, Jose Canseco claims to have personally injected McGwire with steroids. McGwire admitted using the Androstenedione found in his locker but it was not banned by MLB nor an illegal substance at the time.

 

Good site: http://thesteroidera.blogspot.com/2006/08/...#wilson_alvarez

(I was specifically looking at Wilson Alvarez because I'd read about his steroids, did a google search for Wilson Alvarez + Steroids, and found this site and page.)

 

Mark McGwire was juicing in 1992? Jesus Christ. Wouldn't surprise me that he'd juice, but I wasn't aware that people had started before the mid-90s, too.

 

Oh my, people were juicing in the seventies. See Tom House.

[Balta1701]

Mark McGwire was juicing in 1992? Jesus Christ. Wouldn't surprise me that he'd juice, but I wasn't aware that people had started before the mid-90s, too.

In the 1988 ALCS, the fans in Boston were chanting "Steroids" at Canseco when he came up to the plate after at least one article appeared that year suggesting he was juicing. He was.

[Gregory Pratt]

In the 1988 ALCS, the fans in Boston were chanting "Steroids" at Canseco when he came up to the plate after at least one article appeared that year suggesting he was juicing. He was.

 

Innocent until they test positive.

[Gregory Pratt]

From Bob Feller:

"Everybody knows it's coming. Some people would be upset (if McGwire is elected). I obviously wouldn't like it. That would be very damaging to the Hall of Fame."

 

From Ryne Sandberg:

"I'm interested to see how the writers will vote. They have a chance to make a point that needs to be made about what [the Hall] represents. They are supposed to consider integrity and character (as criteria for judging a player's worthiness). I hope they do that."

 

Recently Frank Robinson, former manager and Hall of Famer, spoke out about McGwire and others to reporters in Cincinnati. Ironically, Robinson sits just three home runs ahead of McGwire on the all-time list. Adding fuel to the fire, Robinson had this conversation with a reporter.

 

"Why aren't you voting for McGwire?" Robinson asked.

 

"Steroids," the writer answered. "McGwire admitted he was taking andro back in the 1990s. It's the same thing as steroids - the steroids he won't admit to taking. Andro turned McGwire into something he wasn't created to be."

 

"That's exactly right," said Robinson. "Who else?"

 

"I'm not going to vote for (Sammy) Sosa after that, or (Barry) Bonds after that," the writer said.

 

"Good, good," said Robinson, nodding.

 

A woman standing nearby chimed in: "Once it's proven they were on steroids, their records should be stricken."

 

"I've heard you agree with that," the writer said to Robinson.

 

"I do," Robinson said. "Why should baseball have to try to prove when (these sluggers) started using (steroids)? They used 'em, and they knew they were wrong."

[Gregory Pratt]

http://www.progressiveboink.com/dugout/archive/nick94.htm

 

The last three IMs were ze best.

[TheBigHurt]

QUOTE(southsider2k5 @ Nov 28, 2006 -> 10:34 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That is exactly how I feel about it. Baseball screwed up by not getting testicles and actually having a drug policy. Even if Mark McGwire came clean in a tear filled rant on Oprah, he did not actually do anything wrong as far as MLB was concerned at the time. Now if you want to play the illegal card, that opens a whole nother ball of wax. If you want to keep people out of the Hall for steriods, preMLB testing, you have an obiligation to also keep out every single other person who did something illegal during their time in MLB, such as the drunk drivers, the wifebeaters, the druggies, the tax frauders, the fighters, etc.

 

MLB screwed this up, and now they get to go onto the national stage and try to justify their screw ups.

Tim Raines should be a first ballot HOFer. There is no doubt in my mind. He comes up for vote on the 2008 ballot.

 

PRICELESS.

 

As far as the point, and correct me if I'm wrong, but steroids physically manipulate your playing ability, not the same as wife abuse, fighting (depending on how you look at it), tax fraud, and sometimes drugs (depending on what point in time and what kind).

Edited December 4, 2006 by TheBigHurt

[southsider2k5]

PRICELESS.

 

As far as the point, and correct me if I'm wrong, but steroids physically manipulate your playing ability, not the same as wife abuse, fighting (depending on how you look at it), tax fraud, and sometimes drugs (depending on what point in time and what kind).

 

My point is that thile all of those activities are ALL illegal, but at the time McGwire was playing at least, NONE of them were against the rules of MLB.

[Hatchetman]

so it would be OK to poison your opponents pregame buffet?

[whitesoxfan101]

I too believe that Tim Raines is a first-ballot HOFer.

 

For sure, just make sure to always slide head first.

[Texsox]

Tossing a different log on the fire, the whole first ballot, second etc ballot thing is crazy. If they aren't hall worthy on the first, what exactly do they do to be hall worthy on their next ballot? Hit for a better average? Toss a couple more no hitters? Geez, GMAB.

[WCSox]

Baseball is one of the few sports where cheating is tolerated to a high degree. If a pitcher scuffs a ball or a hitter corks a bat, they get suspended/fined and it's forgotten. If a golfer is caught cheating in a tournament, he'll likely be blackballed from the PGA tour. And, as was mentioned before, steroid use around the turn of the century was not illegal in baseball.

 

While I completely agree with the moral and ethical outcry on this issue, the bottom line is that many of these alleged steroid-users are the premiere players of our era. Bonds admitted under oath that he used steroids, yet he was a first-ballot HOFer 10 years ago before he appeared to be using. He's also the greatest position player of our generation. Canseco blew the whistled on I-Rod in his book, but is anybody NOT going to vote him into the Hall? I'd be pretty surprised if he wasn't inducted on the first ballot. There's also strong suspicion that Clemens used. And he's pretty much universally-loved among fans and writers.

 

As for McGwire, he was a prolific HR hitter and that's pretty much it. One could make the argument that if Sammy doesn't get in, neither should Mac. He's a borderline case. The one thing he has going for him is that he's well-liked among most of the voters.

[Baines3]

McGwire does have HOF numbers, but I think the steroid issue will play a roll if he gets in or not.