Sox & Angels Talking; Crede/Garcia for Santana/Figgins

[southsideirish71]

OK, here's what the Sox do:

 

KW trades Garcia and Crede to the Angels for Figgins and Santana.

 

Then he flips Santana along with Fields and Anderson to the Marlins for Miguel Cabrera.

 

Figgins in Left, Sweeney in Center and Dye in Right along with Cabrera at Third, Uribe at Short, Iguchi at Second and Konerko at First. Pierzynski Catches and Thome at DH. McCarthy moves into the rotation.

 

Sox get faster, younger, cheaper and arguably better.

 

 

You realize that the Marlins are swimming in cheap pitching right now. So they really dont want Santana.

[South Side Fireworks Man]

You realize that the Marlins are swimming in cheap pitching right now. So they really dont want Santana.

 

Everyone wants (should want) cheap quality pitching.

[shoota]

A few things.

 

*Figgins would provide Ozzie with his super sub, while allowing the sox to bring Fields at 3b and Anderson in CF slowly. BA shouldn't need that much time off, though, and Figgins would likely see most of his time in LF and hit leadoff. His OBP was .350 + except for last yr. One series does not detract from what he's done for his career.

 

*Santana's young, has very good stuff, and has room to improve on his 16 win, 4.30 ERA. With the sox need to get younger in the rotation, Santana is a good step toward helping the sox having a strong rotation for years. Maybe he's not a #1. But he's a strong #3, maybe a #2. Also, Santana is more of a strike out pitcher, less reliant on the defense.

 

*Joe would be tough to give up. But he's likely around for only 2007. Figgins and Santana will be around for 3 yrs and 5 respectively. While the sox IF defense might not be as strong, the OF would be. The Sox needed the strong defense in 2005 because the offense wasn't as strong. With an improved O and better pitching, the sox can live with the dropoff of Fields and Figgins at 3b.

 

You've sold me on the trade.

[southsideirish71]

Everyone wants (should want) cheap quality pitching.

 

Annibal Sanchez young cheap quality

Josh Johnson young cheap quality

Dontrell young not so cheap, but could get a kings ransom if they spin him this year

 

 

Then there is petit, olsen, and the rest of their army of young cheap arms.

 

This is one of the organizations that has a bevy of what everyone wants. Where they lack is in position player development. They spin pitchers off for position players. Which is what they will do with Dontrell. Now on the other hand this is a team for sale, why would they send of arguably their best offensive player, who is still affordable.

[sircaffey]

Annibal Sanchez young cheap quality

Josh Johnson young cheap quality

Dontrell young not so cheap, but could get a kings ransom if they spin him this year

Then there is petit, olsen, and the rest of their army of young cheap arms.

 

This is one of the organizations that has a bevy of what everyone wants. Where they lack is in position player development. They spin pitchers off for position players. Which is what they will do with Dontrell. Now on the other hand this is a team for sale, why would they send of arguably their best offensive player, who is still affordable.

 

Or a trade for Santana allows for them to trade Dontrelle who, IMO, is highly overrated across the league. Sanchez, Johnson, Olsen, Santana, Petit, etc. all for 5 plus years at minimal salary is music to Loria's ears. Substituting Santana for Willis isn't really much of a change. Substituting Willis with another rookie is a change. The Marlins could opt for the established young SP, and trade Willis for cheap position players. With that said, I highly doubt we deal with Florida.

[beautox]

Are you saying that Brian Anderson will follow in Tori Hunter's footsteps? that is quite a stretch IMO. I can see Brian breaking 20, but I doubt he will ever hit 30 hr's in more than one season.

I'm saying that i think Brian has the potential to be as good if not better than Torii, and i wouldn't put it past Brian to steal 20 bags in a season.

[jackie hayes]

I mean, there are a lot of bizarre trades proposed here, where we're getting Hughes and Pelfrey and every great prospect the Angels ever had, but -- when you start talking about trading for Miguel Cabrera, just drink some water and sleep it off for a day, please. I mean, I'm only asking you to post half-sober, for God's sake.

[beautox]

And the Twins finished in 5th place his first two years.

 

I'm not saying Brian will never make it, but a team going for a ring can't afford to develop players in the big leagues. I advocate bringing in a suitable journeyman who they can rely on next year. If BA plays better than him then great, put him out there. If BA plays like last year then he needs to go to Charlotte and figure out how to play well enough to become a Major Leaguer. In the mean time the White Sox need SOMEBODY who can play major league CF and hit major league pitching at the same time. Mack and BA really hurt the White Sox last season. KW must not allow this to repeat.

 

The twins never had the offense that the Chicago white sox had. If Podsednik would've done his job and Uribe wouldn't have continued to regress; Brian batting 220 would be a non issue, seeing how he showed improvement over the year, and never took his ABs to CF with him.

 

Brian wasn't at fault for the bullpen's strugles, along with all of our pitchers having career worst years.

 

I seriously think BA is going to come to ST and tear it up.

[Jordan4life_2007]

I mean, there are a lot of bizarre trades proposed here, where we're getting Hughes and Pelfrey and every great prospect the Angels ever had, but -- when you start talking about trading for Miguel Cabrera, just drink some water and sleep it off for a day, please. I mean, I'm only asking you to post half-sober, for God's sake.

 

I'm drunk as hell and I know there's not even a remote chance we land MC.

[jackie hayes]

I'm drunk as hell and I know there's not even a remote chance we land MC.

Some just handle it better than others.

[Gregory Pratt]

I'm drunk as hell and I know there's not even a remote chance we land MC.

 

[shawnhillegas]

OK, here's what the Sox do:

 

KW trades Garcia and Crede to the Angels for Figgins and Santana.

 

Then he flips Santana along with Fields and Anderson to the Marlins for Miguel Cabrera.

 

Figgins in Left, Sweeney in Center and Dye in Right along with Cabrera at Third, Uribe at Short, Iguchi at Second and Konerko at First. Pierzynski Catches and Thome at DH. McCarthy moves into the rotation.

 

Sox get faster, younger, cheaper and arguably better.

 

 

do you really think a different team couldnt put together a MUCH better option for Cabrera if he was available??? The Angels need a 3baseman, so why wouldnt they offer Santana and Shields or Santana Wood and Kendrick? Cabrera is not going anywhere, and that trade would not even come close to prying him away.

[Steve9347]

I mean, there are a lot of bizarre trades proposed here, where we're getting Hughes and Pelfrey and every great prospect the Angels ever had, but -- when you start talking about trading for Miguel Cabrera, just drink some water and sleep it off for a day, please. I mean, I'm only asking you to post half-sober, for God's sake.

 

thank you

[daa84]

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/baseball/294010_mari29.html

[HuskyCaucasian]

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/baseball/294010_mari29.html

Give me Ichiro!

OK, seriously, Jeremy Reed would be nice..... HAHAHAHA! I cant keep a straight face!

 

Honestly, who would we want from Seattle. I dont know who might be available.

[iamshack]

Give me Ichiro!

OK, seriously, Jeremy Reed would be nice..... HAHAHAHA! I cant keep a straight face!

 

Honestly, who would we want from Seattle. I dont know who might be available.

 

Adam Jones? Other than that, I couldn't tell you...

 

How about Garcia and the Birmingham Barons for Felix?

[beautox]

Garcia + Podsednik + Thornton for Ichiro.

[CanOfCorn]

Maybe Yuniesky Betancourt? Possibly Rafael Soriano? Other than that...maybe Jurassic or Borch?

 

Garcia + Podsednik + Thornton for Ichiro.

 

Riiiiiiight. They are going to want TWO former Mariners. They pretty much dumped Thornton. NOt a chance they take that. If that happens I'll eat my hat.

[bmags]

oh hey look, nick lachey!

[beautox]

Maybe Yuniesky Betancourt? Possibly Rafael Soriano? Other than that...maybe Jurassic or Borch?

Riiiiiiight. They are going to want TWO former Mariners. They pretty much dumped Thornton. NOt a chance they take that. If that happens I'll eat my hat.

 

It was a joke

[VAfan]

You are the one who wants to consistantly stay with what we have, throw the bones and hope for the best. So We Willie Harris got into scoring position for the series clinching run. Should we have kept him, what about Geoff Blumm. If you want Joe to stay, give him a call and tell him to fire boras and take a decent offer. As far as resigning these people, LOL.

 

How much money do you think we have. We are already at over 100 million dollars. Lets put this in whats going to happen.

Freddy and his fastball will still get a lot of money no matter how bad he is. Crap is getting 8 mill a year this offseason.

 

Joe Crede will run towards FA, like the titanic sailed towards the iceberg. Nothing will change it. He will get jackpot prices. And Mr. Boras doesnt believe in a hometown discount. So kiss him goodbye. See you.

 

How much will Jermaine Dye get next year.

 

Gooch is gone after this year.

 

So again, how are we keeping these guys all together. Oh yeah, we trade some people who are near the end of their contract so we can infuse the team with new talent. This is how the WS was won in the first place. We traded Carlos Lee, whom Scotty Pods couldnt hold his jock with the bat. Magglio who is a nice hitter, he gone. Jose Valentstatche is also gone. This is called turnover. It happens.

 

But the turnover has to make sense.

 

If Joe Crede has another monster year like he had in 2006 -- or if he actually continues to improve by drawing more walks, which is the only thing holding him down offensively -- then he will actually have MORE trade value next offseason than this year. He's locked up for TWO more years, not one. And I don't buy the notion that teams will pay a lot more for having those two years because any team that wants to trade for him, like the Angels, will be able to pay the freight to extend his contract. Having a second year of better offensive production will be worth a LOT more than losing that one year of being tied up.

 

Plus, after another year -- in 2008 -- I could actually envision Josh Fields coming in and starting at 3B. So, instead of having to find a stop-gap player that seriously hurts our team at 3B, we could plug in someone from our own farm system who may step right in and contribute offensively, even if he'll never be Joe Crede with the glove.

 

Chone Figgins would be a disaster at 3B. Rob Mackowiak would be even worse. (Do you remember the game last year when he was pressed into duty and just about every ball got by him??) Moving Juan Uribe is no answer. And Josh Fields isn't close to being ready. So this trade idea creates a HUGE hole in our team when we already have enough holes to fill -- LF, SS, CF, backup C, right handed DH for spot duty.

 

Kenny Williams is totally correct when he says he doesn't have to do anything right now. The Angels should be the ones overpaying if they want Joe Crede a year ahead of schedule. I wasn't kidding when I said the deal should be Figgins + Santana (at least) for Crede. They would be getting one of the best 3B in baseball -- a gamer who was perhaps our most important postseason asset in 2005. Meanwhile, Chone Figgins was non-existant in the 2005 ALCS, and then went downhill from there in 2006. I don't consider him to be of any real value in a trade. He's Scott Podsednik with a better success rate on SBs.

 

Now, as for the pitchers. I would take Freddy Garcia over Ervin Santana next season. Call me crazy if you want, but these are Freddy's career totals:

 

SEASON TEAM G GS CG SHO IP H R ER HR BB SO W L SV HLD BLSV ERA

1999 Sea 33 33 2 1 201.1 205 96 91 18 90 170 17 8 0 0 -- 4.07

2000 Sea 21 20 0 0 124.1 112 62 54 16 64 79 9 5 0 0 -- 3.91

2001 Sea 34 34 4 3 238.2 199 88 81 16 69 163 18 6 0 0 -- 3.05

2002 Sea 34 34 1 0 223.2 227 110 109 30 63 181 16 10 0 0 -- 4.39

2003 Sea 33 33 1 0 201.1 196 109 101 31 71 144 12 14 0 0 -- 4.52

2004 CWS 16 16 0 0 103.0 96 53 51 14 32 102 9 4 0 0 -- 4.46

2004 Sea 15 15 1 0 107.0 96 39 38 8 32 82 4 7 0 0 -- 3.20

2004 -- 31 31 1 0 210.0 192 92 89 22 64 184 13 11 0 0 -- 3.81

2005 CWS 33 33 2 0 228.0 225 102 98 26 60 146 14 8 0 0 -- 3.87

2006 CWS 33 33 1 0 216.1 228 116 109 32 48 135 17 9 0 0 -- 4.54

Total -- 252 251 12 4 1643.2 1584 775 732 191 529 1202 116 71 0 0 -- 4.01

 

What you can see from this is that Freddy has had a blip in the road before -- in 2003, when his ERA was very much like what it was last year. Yet Freddy came back strong from that to post two of the best seasons of his career. I expect Freddy will bounce back again next season and beyond. And I wouldn't at all be surprised if Freddy pitches as well or better than Ervin Santana over the next 5 years.

 

So, what you are gaining with Santana is lower cost and having him locked up longer. Now this is not an insignificant value. However, if the object is to get to and win another World Series, I'm not sure it helps us even marginally. Santana might not be nearly as good of a pitcher if he called the Cell his home.

 

Look at Santana's home and away splits over his two years:

 

Away 6.46 9 11 0 0 25 25 0 134.2 150 101 96 23 54 100 .284

Home 3.09 19 5 0 0 31 31 1 204.0 170 78 70 15 63 140 .228

 

He's 9-11 on the road, with a 6.46 ERA. But in Anaheim, he pitches magnificently. I don't trust a pitcher with that kind of split coming to a HR ballpark as his home field.

 

I hope this deal never goes down.

 

*******************

 

My bottom line is this: Keep Crede for another year. Make an attempt to sign him next offseason, and if it doesn't go, trade him then. He ought to be able to bring back a pitcher with enough quality to replace Buehrle or Garcia at that point.

 

As for pitching, I would trade Vazquez this season if a starter has to go. I would use the savings to approach Buehrle for a 3-year extension. Buehrle might bite now rather than risk having another bad year cause his value to drop. I would just ride out Garcia for another year and try to get back to the World Series, believing that Contreras, Buehrle, Garcia, Garland, and McCarthy, with a solid bullpen, will be the class pitching staff of the AL once again (or at least co-equals). Depending on market and performance, I'd consider re-signing Garcia next offseason as a FA. If he walks, I'd trade Crede to replace him and use the money saved on Garcia/Crede to re-sign Jermaine Dye. We ought to be able to afford Dye and others b/c Thome won't have much longer to go after next year.

 

So, please don't accuse me of not being willing to make changes. I just think it is a year early to make any moves with Crede or Garcia. Crede will be more valuable in a year. And Garcia -- who seems to have very little trade value at the moment -- will provide far more value playing for us next season because he'll give us a chance to get to the postseason and win.

[shawnhillegas]

It was a joke

 

 

Heath Phillips, Chris Stewart, Jeff Farnsworth, Robert Valido, Jorge Velandia and Booooone for Ichiro? If we are giving them 6 and they are giving us 1 it has to be a good deal!

[Chet Lemon]

The diminutive Figgins might be as productive a hitter as Crede, using his speed to offset limited power. Figgins had 146 runs produced (runs scored plus RBIs minus home runs) last season to Crede's 140. He scored 17 more runs while hitting 21 fewer home runs. Plus, Crede hit into 18 double plays, while Figgins hit into six.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/colum...umnistfront-hed

[RockRaines]

If the team of 2006 played the season 10 times, would last season's results have been the worst that can happen? The pitching underperformed, the bullpen got shot to hell, and the hitting was sporatic.

 

If we make minimal changes including a new LF and trading one of our starters for spects of pen help, I would feel pretty good about this team going into next year.

[shawnhillegas]

If the team of 2006 played the season 10 times, would last season's results have been the worst that can happen? The pitching underperformed, the bullpen got shot to hell, and the hitting was sporatic.

 

If we make minimal changes including a new LF and trading one of our starters for spects of pen help, I would feel pretty good about this team going into next year.

 

 

Its not about the White Sox as a team, its about other teams. Did the Tigers overperform last year? Yes. But they are going to be a very good team next year. They added Sheffield, and their bullpen and SPing is extraordinarily deep. That doesnt include other teams like the Angels and Red Sox who figure to be upgraded as well.

And saying that the hitting was sporadic is misleading. We suffered no serious injuries last year and had career years from a number of our hitters. Our ability to produce runs might (and better) improve next year, but do we know that Thome, Dye or Crede (and his back) dont regress just a little? There were a lot of career years out there, only Pods, Anderson and Uribe really struggled and no one is expecting a huge jump in the production of any of those three.

Edited November 29, 2006 by shawnhillegas